H Plus Son Archetype build

Camcycle1974

JGSI wrote:

Camcycle1974 wrote:

JGSI wrote:

VeloJay wrote:

Fantastic replies thanks. I think I am leaning towards 24/28 spoke count radial front, 2 cross rear. Might have a think about the hubs a little more. Novatec should be fine as I plan to only use these wheels in dry weather. But I do rack up the miles training for racing so am a little worried about the bearing life mentioned. If only I could afford those CK hubs....

Thats the config I chose... but I did push the boat out for Chris Kings on the basis that they will probably outlive me.

Wheel envy. They look amazing! Red Chris Kings? Can you post up a pic of the hubs please?

Mmmm, me likey. Your hubs cost more than my total budget though! Nice bike too, how do you maintain such a clean drive train?

jgsi

Camcycle1974 wrote:

Mmmm, me likey. Your hubs cost more than my total budget though! Nice bike too, how do you maintain such a clean drive train?

Slight cheat.. brand new Dura ace 11-23 cassette and KMC chain for this years racing... the cassette was a winter bargain from Ribble and I thought .. new wheelset.. nice en light.. deserves a light drivetrain.
The chain was desprately needed as the old one had stretched 1/2 inch, couldnt believe it.

huuregeil

VeloJay,

Can I suggest looking at PMP hubs? They're not super light (about 110g front, 280g rear, from memory) but... they're super well made, reliable and extremely smooth, have good flange geometry at the rear, have chunky front flanges suitable for radial lacing without any drama, come in a variety of drillings/colours, and can be had for juist over £200 (i.e. much less than Chris Kings!) direct from Italy. I'm extremely happy with mine, I'm surprised I don't see more of these about. I run mine on archetypes, 24/28, lasers radial at the front, and 2x laser/comp at the rear - these are really great wheels, total do it all wheelset, racing, sportives, etc. in all weathers. I'm 70kg and these are plenty stiff for me, could even have gone 20/24 I reckon (but I like a bit of margin!).

PS one more point to consider on the hub quality/reliability thing... if you're racing, and training, and have a job and life, then that doesn't leave much spare time in the week. The worst thing (well not quite, but you know what i mean!) is to have your trick wheels go up the spout midway through the season because a) it becomes a pain to fix and b) you can't use them for your next race! Reliability counts here.

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

VeloJay,

Can I suggest looking at PMP hubs? They're not super light (about 110g front, 280g rear, from memory) but... they're super well made, reliable and extremely smooth, have good flange geometry at the rear, have chunky front flanges suitable for radial lacing without any drama, come in a variety of drillings/colours, and can be had for juist over £200 (i.e. much less than Chris Kings!) direct from Italy. I'm extremely happy with mine, I'm surprised I don't see more of these about. I run mine on archetypes, 24/28, lasers radial at the front, and 2x laser/comp at the rear - these are really great wheels, total do it all wheelset, racing, sportives, etc. in all weathers. I'm 70kg and these are plenty stiff for me, could even have gone 20/24 I reckon (but I like a bit of margin!).

Jeeezz... we agree on something!

bendertherobot

4 months into mine now. Used in sh*t weather, crap roads, off road sections.

Still absolutely true. Still roll brilliantly.

huuregeil

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Jeeezz... we agree on something!

We can leave carbon and aero/weight performance trade-offs till another day ;-)

Seriously, Paulo, have you considered getting PMP hubs in? I'd have thought that with some Italian skills (I'm guessing you speak Italian?) you might be able to do some deals. The UK distribution of these is very poor.

velojay

Hmm serious wheel envy now having seen those Chris King red hubs. Would go with my black and red bike a treat!

huuregeil I hadn't considered the PMP hubs before. I guess that they are a bit of a halfway hub in terms of price. A bit more than the Mich or Novatec and not quite as much as the Dura Ace or Chris King. I have just done some research on them and they do look nicely made and also seem to have some good reviews. I can't seem to find them available from any UK shops although as you say they can be purchased direct from PMP I see and also in red or black which are the two colour options I am considering for my build. More decisions to take into account!

Think I will go with Sapim Race all around with brass nipples as well. So just the final decision to make on the hubs now.

huuregeil

VeloJay wrote:

Hmm serious wheel envy now having seen those Chris King red hubs. Would go with my black and red bike a treat!

huuregeil I hadn't considered the PMP hubs before. I guess that they are a bit of a halfway hub in terms of price. A bit more than the Mich or Novatec and not quite as much as the Dura Ace or Chris King. I have just done some research on them and they do look nicely made and also seem to have some good reviews. I can't seem to find them available from any UK shops although as you say they can be purchased direct from PMP I see and also in red or black which are the two colour options I am considering for my build. More decisions to take into account!

Think I will go with Sapim Race all around with brass nipples as well. So just the final decision to make on the hubs now.

I would definitely suggest going with thinner spokes for that build. At 24/28 you don't need the additional stiffness that comes with thicker spokes; thinner spokes will reduce weight and improve fatigue life for marginal extra cost. (If racing these wheels, consider cx-rays for additional aero benefit, otherwise e.g. sapim laser). Brass nipples good!

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

I would definitely suggest going with thinner spokes for that build. At 24/28 you don't need the additional stiffness that comes with thicker spokes; thinner spokes will reduce weight and improve fatigue life for marginal extra cost.

Now we disagree again... that's more like it...

huuregeil

ugo.santalucia wrote:

huuregeil wrote:

I would definitely suggest going with thinner spokes for that build. At 24/28 you don't need the additional stiffness that comes with thicker spokes; thinner spokes will reduce weight and improve fatigue life for marginal extra cost.

Now we disagree again... that's more like it...

With which bit??!! I don't think anything I've said is contentious: thicker spokes, stiffer wheel; thinner spokes, less weight; thinner spokes, more durability.

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

huuregeil wrote:

I would definitely suggest going with thinner spokes for that build. At 24/28 you don't need the additional stiffness that comes with thicker spokes; thinner spokes will reduce weight and improve fatigue life for marginal extra cost.

Now we disagree again... that's more like it...

With which bit??!! I don't think anything I've said is contentious: thicker spokes, stiffer wheel; thinner spokes, less weight; thinner spokes, more durability.

In my experience thinner spokes are way less durable... infact I don't even bother with those at the rear, just not worth it. If they were more durable, nobody would bother with thicker spokes in 32 H builds.

cycleclinic

The thing abot thinner spokes is they reduce wheel lateral, radial and tortional stiffness, this make the spokes more prone to fatige failue. If however the rider is light enough, the rim stiff enough and the hub gives good enough bracing angles then thinn spokes can be very reliable on the rear as wheel stiffess (lateral and radial) will be good enough.

I have yet to find problem with Lasers up front, Laser NDS and Race spokes DS rear on wheels for riders up to 95kg. These wheels have been 32 spoke with shallow rims like the Open Pro and DT Swiss RR465. There are 90kg riders however who this would be not appropriate for, it really depends on the rider and the style of riding and there priorities for the wheel. For lighter riders 80kg or so Laser or CX-ray spokes all round seems to work again for some riders this may not be appropriate. If using thin spokes you can always up the spoke count.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

The thing abot thinner spokes is they reduce wheel lateral, radial and tortional stiffness, this make the spokes more prone to fatige failue. If however the rider is light enough, the rim stiff enough and the hub gives good enough bracing angles then thinn spokes can be very reliable on the rear as wheel stiffess (lateral and radial) will be good enough.

I have yet to find problem with Lasers up front, Laser NDS and Race spokes DS rear on wheels for riders up to 95kg. These wheels have been 32 spoke with shallow rims like the Open Pro and DT Swiss RR465. There are 90kg riders however who this would be not appropriate for, it really depends on the rider and the style of riding and there priorities for the wheel. For lighter riders 80kg or so Laser or CX-ray spokes all round seems to work again for some riders this may not be appropriate. If using thin spokes you can always up the spoke count.

That of the rear NDS with revs or Laser is a rat that I don't buy into... rear NDS spokes are the first to fatigue and go because of the lower tension, hence they are the last I would fit with laser or revs... it is a recent obsession to save 30 grams, frankly pointless

huuregeil

thecycleclinic wrote:

The thing abot thinner spokes is they reduce wheel lateral, radial and tortional stiffness, this make the spokes more prone to fatige failue. If however the rider is light enough, the rim stiff enough and the hub gives good enough bracing angles then thinn spokes can be very reliable on the rear as wheel stiffess (lateral and radial) will be good enough.

I agree on the stiffness, but (counter-intuitively, I know) fatigue margin goes up when using thinner spokes because the magnitude of the cyclic stress is reduced. Simply put, a spoke is an elastic spring. To go from full tension to zero, a thicker spoke will require less deflection (i.e. the thinner spoke is more elastic). In the context of the wheel, to resist a given load on the rim, more elastic spokes have the dual effect of spreading the load more widely (more spokes deform) and enabling the rim to do more work (the rim must deflect more radially to compensate for the increased spoke elasticity, thus absorbing more energy and changing the load balance between the rim and the spoke). The cyclic stresses are hence lower. (Of course, this assumes adequate stiffness - if stiffness is inadequate, then you'll always have issues! Hence stiff rims, like these deeper sections are good, because they give you more latitude on the spoke choice).

Otherwise I agree, don't use lasers on the rear DS, and be very mindful of spoke wind-up - this is why I think people have issues with lasers, because if the wheel is not well built then you will go out of true quickly (and also why builders tend to stick to thicker spokes, they're quicker and easier to build!). This is the second reason to consider using cx-rays (aero being the other one), because you can happily fully tension the DS rear with a cx-ray and control wind-up extremely well (better almost that standard db spokes).

Paolo, your NDS rear is the first place to use thinner spokes!

huuregeil

Put another way, consider the de-tensioning of a NDS spoke due to lateral deflection of the rim. A thick spoke might de-tension with A mm of lateral deflection; a thinner spoke will take B mm to fully de-tension, and B>A. To deflect the wheel by the additional distance from A->B means that the rim and the DS spokes are being bent/stretched more, and absorbing more energy (which goes with distance-squared). This is where the fatigue margin comes from. The same applied to radial deflection.

ugo.santalucia

I have got bored of reading theory of wheels years ago and I base my decisions solely on MY experience and a bit of advice I get from others I trust... I want to keep what is in many ways still a hobby and my job completely separate and I have to read a lot of scientific literature in my job...

The very reason I started building wheels 5 years ago was because my NDS revolution spokes kept breaking... the first at a mere 400 miles, the second soon after, then came the third... fatigue!!!!... I embraced the task to rebuild them, not knowing exactly waht I was doing, but with one thing clear in mind... NOT to use the same spokes! I have never used them at the rear. I know Harry Rowland and other experienced builders are of the same school and that means something.
I have seen their work and it is flawless, while I have seen some appalling wheels built by others who have joined the trade more recently and embraced the "light at all costs" approach.
Since then I have laced about 7000 spokes or so and I have not had one single broken spoke that I am aware of... I am not chaning my approach because someone says Dt revs at the rear NDS are a great idea... I might be old fashioned and wrong in the theory, so be it... the practice speaks in favour of this approach

huuregeil

Your spoke breakages are highly likely to have been because it was a poor build (fatigue failure at 400miles should never happen! This screams under-tension), or that overall stiffness was inadequate, or both. Plenty of good wheelbuilders put thin spokes on the NDS (Paul Hewitt springs to mind, having had the pleasure of checking out one of his wheels recently!). Modern, stiff rims (e.g. like the archetype) do really well with thin spokes. I know the argument is a little hard to make, because it's a question of margin - really, you should be wearing the rims out before you suffer spoke fatigue - but given adequate stiffness, thin spokes really are a win/win (particularly if you're pushing the margins a little - e.g. my race wheels are cx-rays all round).

I definitely can't match your 7000 spokes, but it does certainly sounds like i've build plenty more wheels with thin spokes ;-).

As I said, so far (just under year and a few thousand miles) on my Archetypes and they've been just great, thin spokes too ;-).

ugo.santalucia

huuregeil wrote:

Your spoke breakages are highly likely to have been because it was a poor build (fatigue failure at 400miles should never happen! This screams under-tension), or that overall stiffness was inadequate, or both. Plenty of good wheelbuilders put thin spokes on the NDS (Paul Hewitt springs to mind, having had the pleasure of checking out one of his wheels recently!). Modern, stiff rims (e.g. like the archetype) do really well with thin spokes. I know the argument is a little hard to make, because it's a question of margin - really, you should be wearing the rims out before you suffer spoke fatigue - but given adequate stiffness, thin spokes really are a win/win (particularly if you're pushing the margins a little - e.g. my race wheels are cx-rays all round).

I definitely can't match your 7000 spokes, but it does certainly sounds like i've build plenty more wheels with thin spokes ;-).

As I said, so far (just under year and a few thousand miles) on my Archetypes and they've been just great, thin spokes too ;-).

I have my bugs... not necessarily rational...

any fracture within yield stress is technically due to fatigue... so a bad build had enhanced the rate of the crack propagation in those wheels... thing is thicker spokes can withstand lack of tension a lot better... a friend has done Paris-Roubaix with no measurable tension on his NDS... plain gauge spokes... they are like mules, they do their job even when they shouldn't. I couldn't believe it... I measured it before PR and offered to tension his wheels, he said "don't bother they'll be fine"... they did fine!

huuregeil

Bear in mind that breakages happen at the elbow and that spoke thicknesses there tend to be the same (e.g. a laser/revolution has the same elbow thickness 2.0mm/14g, and thus stress, as a comp/race), so differences in fatigue life boil down to cyclic stress. Indeed, a chunky single butted 14/13g, or straight 13g will be tough!

mellex

Currently having my Archetypes built up around a set of PMP hubs. I have noticed a few of you mention them but I don't think anyone has actually taken the plunge. Getting hold of them was easy but be advised, you will also need to purchase their specific lockring tool or their custom Shimano lockring. This has slightly different threading (so I was told) and a standard Shimano lockring will not sit flush. Other than that, it was plain sailing and they looked spot-on when they arrived (took 3 days via UPS).

I spoke with Derek at Wheelsmith and he really helped me spec my build. I'm around 82 - 85kg (some of us are just big boned) and I needed a do-it-all in all weathers setup. The rims were a no-brainer and Derek recommended the PMPs due to the bearing quality and flange height/thickness. Using Sapim CX Ray in black, 24/32 x2 laced and finishing off with black brass nipples.

This isn't going to be the lightest build due to my weight and riding style, which I dare say is rather unforgiving but, I'm looking for longevity rather than head-turning, fly weight.

pkripper

FWIW, I've used DT revs on a number of my mountain bike wheels, front and rear for about 12 years, generally 28/28. Haven't broken one spoke yet, and the number of lips I've cased on landings is huge, the twists, flexes and downright abuse in all weather extremes is many!

I'd have no hesitation on using them on road wheels.

cycleclinic

If you like PMP hub look at Miche very similar in many ways and alot cheaper. I have yet to have a thin spoke break. Thin spokes work on wheels with high spoke bracing angles. They do not work well with wheel with poor spoke bracing angles. Spoke bracing angle is the most important part of wheel stiffness. Poor braing angles lead to poor wheel stifness and premature spoke failure unless a deep stiff rim is used and thicker gauge spokes. There are many hubs that give poor bracing angles and some of the hubs are highly regarded. Spoke mainly break through fatigue but it often hubs, rims and spokes that do not complement each other (i.e a hub that give a poor bracing angle coupled with a light flexy rim and thing spokes) that cause the problems. Pick a hub that gives good bracing angles and thin spokes can be used with sucess.

For lighter riders I have built many wheels with thin spokes all round and have had no issues. I ride such wheels myself and I do alot of miles.

Yes thicker spokes can handle low tension better and are more reistant to failure but this is beacuse they make the wheel laterally and radially stiffer so the is less unloading of the spoke. This is why good bracing angles with thin spokes are so important.

fluff.

Bit late to party but I had my Archetypes built up with 24/28, Revolution front/ Competition rear, with White Industries T11 hubs, and very nice they are too. Seem to hit the particular (reasonably) light/ stiff/ durable (so far!) sweet spot I was after .I considered CX Rays but the only advantage seemed to be some tiny aero one up front, and almost nothing on the rear, for quite a bit of extra cash. Also I have broken the odd spoke at the back, on other wheels, never had a front one go.

ugo.santalucia

Again,

I am not condemning the use of thin spokes at the rear, simply I don't use them, I won't be convinced to use them and if I am asked for advice, I do advise against them based on my limited experience...
I am sure 90+% of people with such arrangement are happy... couldn't care less, I still won't use them.
It's not wrong, it's me!

huuregeil

thecycleclinic wrote:

If you like PMP hub look at Miche very similar in many ways and alot cheaper.

Thanks for the tip. Couple of observations. 1) These look remarkably similar to lower-end Campag hubs from about 7-8 years ago, e.g. the pre-load design, the bearing cover plate (this being a good thing, my winter training wheel run these and they been extremely reliabe). Any thoughts on this? I know Miche and Campagnolo have some association, maybe they took over the design once campag stopped making these hubs. 2) I can only seem to find these in matched pairs and 28+ holes. Any idea where you can buy them singly and in lower hole counts?

Yes thicker spokes can handle low tension better and are more reistant to failure but this is beacuse they make the wheel laterally and radially stiffer so the is less unloading of the spoke.

Sorry, being slightly anal about this (I'm a mechanical engineer, I spend my days improving designs!), this is not correct - spokes with thicker elbows may be less prone to failure because the total stress levels at the elbow are lower, but stiffer (i.e. thicker) spokes suffer greater cyclic peaks in load (this is why butting is a good thing: thin mid section for good macro structural properties; thick elbow to reduce peak stress at a micro level). Consider an infinitely stiff spoke - in the context of a wheel structure, this would lead to a single spoke (for a given rotational angle) taking all the load because very small deflections in the rim would be sufficient to generate the reaction force required. The rim would not bend: the rim thus would not share the load to surrounding spokes. If you need more stiffness, it's better (if possible and for durability's sake) to use a stiffer or deeper rim, or increase the spoke count, rather than bump up the mid-section spoke thickness.

adm1

fluff. wrote:

Bit late to party but I had my Archetypes built up with 24/28, Revolution front/ Competition rear, with White Industries T11 hubs, and very nice they are too. Seem to hit the particular (reasonably) light/ stiff/ durable (so far!) sweet spot I was after.I considered CX Rays but the only advantage seemed to be some tiny aero one up front, and almost nothing on the rear, for quite a bit of extra cash. Also I have broken the odd spoke at the back, on other wheels, never had a front one go.

Also late to the party - although I got my Archetype wheelset August last year. Very pleased with them and they were a joy on a trip from London to Paris last year. I have a few thousand miles on them now and they are as true as the day they came out of the box.





I went for 24 front, 28 rear, Royce Venus rear and mid flange front hubs, Sapim CXRay black spokes. Built by Strada. Not the world's lightest build, but I weight 75Kg and prefer comfort. As others have mentioned, the black anodising on the brake tracks wears off after a while, but they still look good and ride wonderfully.

duckson

They look really good. 8)

Any up to date pics with the brake track now its worn? Also what pads are you using?

Thanks.

ugo.santalucia

duckson wrote:

They look really good. 8)

Any up to date pics with the brake track now its worn? Also what pads are you using?

Thanks.

It looks like a worn track, occasionally a bit patchy, until it looks like a shiny silver track...
You can use pads made of bamboo, straw, orchid leaves or anchovies paste, they will still wear... there is nothing, I said nothing you can do to avoid the rim discolouring... if that hurts, best to look for rims which are already silver, or get a bike with disc brakes or ride in a velodrome

moscowflyer

ugo.santalucia wrote:

duckson wrote:

They look really good. 8)

Any up to date pics with the brake track now its worn? Also what pads are you using?

Thanks.

It looks like a worn track, occasionally a bit patchy, until it looks like a shiny silver track...
You can use pads made of bamboo, straw, orchid leaves or anchovies paste, they will still wear... there is nothing, I said nothing you can do to avoid the rim discolouring... if that hurts, best to look for rims which are already silver, or get a bike with disc brakes or ride in a velodrome

This.

They look great when they're built. They ride great when they're built. They still ride great when the brake track rubs and that's the main thing. Mine have some silver lines running round them and I've ridden about 300 miles on them, you know it's going to happen and just have to deal with it. Superb rims though.

asprilla

I posted an image on the previous page showing the worn brake track.