H Plus Son Archetype build

velojay

So I have decided to build some new summer wheels and think that I would like to build with the Archetype rims from H Plus Son.

I already have some winter/commuting wheels (Ambosio Excellight rims on Ultegra 32/32 hubs) and some Zipp 303 tubs for racing so these new wheels will not have to be used for those situations. They will mainly be used in the dry for training and club runs. I think the rims look to be perfect (wide rims, reasonably light, semi aero, look good) for what I am after.

The question is what hubs, spokes and lacing should I use? I weigh around 69kg and am thinking that building 24/28 should give me a reasonable balance between stiffness and lightness. I live in a reasonably hilly area with not much flat so keeping the weight down is desirable. I can't stretch the budget to hubs like Chris King or Royce which I would love to be able to build with so I am contemplating some Miche Primato hubs or maybe Novatec A291/F482 hubs. I have a feeling that getting hold of a mixed 24/28 pair of Miche Primatos might be difficult as they seem to be sold as pairs. Does anybody have experience with these hubs or the Novatec hubs?

Perhaps some builders on here could let me know their thoughts on lacing? Radial front, 2 cross rear? And spokes?

Too many questions.

chrisvanderkaap

Im considering the very same build. So i believe you're on to something
I'm planning on using Sapim race double butted spokes, radial 28 front brass nipples, 28 two cross back. Im 68 kg.
But would like to have someone back up with experience. The only thing i'm doubting is of course the hubs.
I'm using Novatec high flange hubs now and while the build quality isn't all that bad I may turn to some cup/cone bearings since a hand build set should be easy to service too imo. Miche primato was on my list but is considerably heavier.

oh yeah, i've also decided on all black.

good fortune! Hope it helps you too.

Camcycle1974

Looking at the same build but with 28/28 on the spokes also with the Miche Primato hubs. Spokes wise I have been recommended Sapim Race in a three cross pattern. The Miche seem to get good reviews for a sealed unit. Where are you getting them built?

pkripper

don't discount ambrosio zenith hubs - I've been impressed with mine for a budget hub.

Camcycle1974

pkripper wrote:

don't discount ambrosio zenith hubs - I've been impressed with mine for a budget hub.

Heard good things about the Zenith's. Do they only come in silver though?

velojay

Thanks for replies so far. I am also looking at all black build. Going to build myself. I have been retruing and rebuilding my own wheels for a while now so am fairly competent. This will be my first full build though. I have also considered the Ambrosio hubs but they seem to only be available in 28 hole. The Novatec hubs seem to be difficult to find in the UK. Total Cycling have them available to buy individually to get the right drilling combination.

I have just been reading Ugo's new site, (some nice advice on there) and see that he has recently built these rims with the same hubs in 20/24 with CX Rays. Would be interested to know if you think they would be stiff enough for 69kg Ugo?

Frank pole

I've both Nova and Miche hubs and they have both been faultless with over 2000 miles on each so far but if your a weightweenie then go novatec as they are lighter

pkripper

Camcycle1974 wrote:

pkripper wrote:

don't discount ambrosio zenith hubs - I've been impressed with mine for a budget hub.

Heard good things about the Zenith's. Do they only come in silver though?

They're available in black as well, and mine are 32 hole so they are available

natsnoz

I have 32 hole in grey with miche primato hubs. Paulo built them for me and can not fault his advice or build quality. In hindsight, i wish i spent the extra on slighty better record hubs but that is just me, not unhappy with the Miche. The rims are great, the finish is wearing on the brake surface but that was always going to happen, still look great!

asprilla

VeloJay wrote:

Thanks for replies so far. I am also looking at all black build. Going to build myself. I have been retruing and rebuilding my own wheels for a while now so am fairly competent. This will be my first full build though. I have also considered the Ambrosio hubs but they seem to only be available in 28 hole. The Novatec hubs seem to be difficult to find in the UK. Total Cycling have them available to buy individually to get the right drilling combination.

I have just been reading Ugo's new site, (some nice advice on there) and see that he has recently built these rims with the same hubs in 20/24 with CX Rays. Would be interested to know if you think they would be stiff enough for 69kg Ugo?

I've got 24/28 CX-Rays on a pair of Archetypes on CK R45s and I generally weigh around 72kg. There isn't a sniff of flex in them, it's a pretty stiff rim. I contemplated 20/24 but I erred on the side of caution and I very much doubt the extra 64g or so has affected me in any way.

I've also just built up a pair of 32/32 DT Competition /DT Revolution on Royce hubs. Not ridden them yet.

ugo.santalucia

VeloJay wrote:

Thanks for replies so far. I am also looking at all black build. Going to build myself. I have been retruing and rebuilding my own wheels for a while now so am fairly competent. This will be my first full build though. I have also considered the Ambrosio hubs but they seem to only be available in 28 hole. The Novatec hubs seem to be difficult to find in the UK. Total Cycling have them available to buy individually to get the right drilling combination.

I have just been reading Ugo's new site, (some nice advice on there) and see that he has recently built these rims with the same hubs in 20/24 with CX Rays. Would be interested to know if you think they would be stiff enough for 69kg Ugo?

Stiff yes, durable no... Those were wheels I built, not wheels I recommended. Depends what mileage you expect. The Novatec 482 is not the most durable hub... Bearing replacement within 1000 miles is not unusual.

chrisvanderkaap

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Novatec 482 is not the most durable hub... Bearing replacement within 1000 miles is not unusual.

I concur.

Ugo, could you recommend a set of cup and cone bearings for a 28/28 setup?

cycleclinic

I have done more than 1000 miles on my F482 hubs and the bearings are fine. I have put 1000's on my miche hubs and so have fellow wheelers and we have no problems with these hubs. Fellow local riders who are using the Novatec A291/F482 hubs also have put lots of miles on the these hubs without issue but if you ride alot in wet weather then the Miche hubs are superior due in part to the size of the bearings. I can imagine sitations where the novatec hubs could need bearing replacement after 1000 miles. I would always advise if you an all weather rider not to use the novatecs but if yo want low weight on a budget there is nothing better. I use my novatec A291/F482 hubs on a dry road bike.

Miche hubs are the most drable on a budget while keeping the weight down. If I was doing a set of archetypes in 24F/28R with Miche hbs I would use Radial lacing on the fornt and 2x on the rear. I am doing a set right now well I started today and I finsih the front wheel tomorrow. These are 28F/32R on Miche hub but they are for a heavier rider. 24F/28R is perfect. I aslo would not suggest 20F/24R sch spoke counts are for racing where long spoke life is not needed. For spokes I would suggest Sapim Lasers all round, same weight as CX-rays but less costly.

The other hubs that would I would suggest are Dura ace 7900 if you don't mind silver and these are sup and cone and are availble in 28/28. The Dura ace 9000 hubs are a possibility too and are available in black. but the record hubs work if 32 spoke drillings are fine with you. 24F/28R is fine for your weight though unless you are a 1 kW powerstation.

chrisvanderkaap

nice detailed advice!
tnxalot

bisoner

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have done more than 1000 miles on my F482 hubs and the bearings are fine. I have put 1000's on my miche hubs and so have fellow wheelers and we have no problems with these hubs. Fellow local riders who are using the Novatec A291/F482 hubs also have put lots of miles on the these hubs without issue but if you ride alot in wet weather then the Miche hubs are superior due in part to the size of the bearings. I can imagine sitations where the novatec hubs could need bearing replacement after 1000 miles. I would always advise if you an all weather rider not to use the novatecs but if yo want low weight on a budget there is nothing better. I use my novatec A291/F482 hubs on a dry road bike.

Spot on. I think the wet weather will really reduce the usable life of bearings in the lightweight Novatec hubs - as it has on mine. If you nurse them, they will probably be fine.

Wirral_paul

I finally got to ride my new (all black) Archetypes last night that Ugo built for me (been riding the summer bike previously - and wanted new tyres for the new wheels). Well i have to say they ride superbly - very stiff with zero brake rub - even though i set the brakes closer than normal to see if they would rub, but comfortable too. I'm closer to 90kg (for now) and we went with 28f / 32r for the spokes (DT Comp).

Seriously impressed with the wheels - and a credit to Ugo who advised on the spec prior to building them. 8) 8)

moscowflyer

I love mine, Ugo built them and I've now done a good couple of hundred miles and they're great. I went for Hope Pro 3 hubs with DT Swiss spokes, thoughts are on this thread;

viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=12911022

velojay

Fantastic replies thanks. I think I am leaning towards 24/28 spoke count radial front, 2 cross rear. Might have a think about the hubs a little more. Novatec should be fine as I plan to only use these wheels in dry weather. But I do rack up the miles training for racing so am a little worried about the bearing life mentioned. If only I could afford those CK hubs....

jgsi

VeloJay wrote:

Fantastic replies thanks. I think I am leaning towards 24/28 spoke count radial front, 2 cross rear. Might have a think about the hubs a little more. Novatec should be fine as I plan to only use these wheels in dry weather. But I do rack up the miles training for racing so am a little worried about the bearing life mentioned. If only I could afford those CK hubs....

Thats the config I chose... but I did push the boat out for Chris Kings on the basis that they will probably outlive me.

Camcycle1974

JGSI wrote:

VeloJay wrote:

Fantastic replies thanks. I think I am leaning towards 24/28 spoke count radial front, 2 cross rear. Might have a think about the hubs a little more. Novatec should be fine as I plan to only use these wheels in dry weather. But I do rack up the miles training for racing so am a little worried about the bearing life mentioned. If only I could afford those CK hubs....

Thats the config I chose... but I did push the boat out for Chris Kings on the basis that they will probably outlive me.

Wheel envy. They look amazing! Red Chris Kings? Can you post up a pic of the hubs please?

asprilla

Here's a picture of mine in boring black;



I should point out they they strip the black from the brake track the moment you use them in the wet.

Camcycle1974

Asprilla wrote:

Here's a picture of mine in boring black;



I should point out they they strip the black from the brake track the moment you use them in the wet.

Should that not be "stealth black"? Very nice btw.

flasher

Anybody got pics of how the brake track looks after a few hundred miles?

tomisitt

Here are mine after a couple of hundred miles...still black, but beginning to show signs of wear. They're 24/28 CX-Ray on R45 hubs, built up by Strada. Very pleased with them.

chrisvanderkaap

dropped the bomb on my 'budget build'.

28F/28R

H+son Archetype 28h/ Miche Primato Black/Sapim race black/ black brass nipples

ugo.santalucia

chrisvanderkaap wrote:

dropped the bomb on my 'budget build'.

28F/28R

H+son Archetype 28h/ Miche Primato Black/Sapim race black/ black brass nipples

Your money, but it is not clear to me why you invest 70 pounds in hubs and 150 in spokes... :shock:

chrisvanderkaap

ugo.santalucia wrote:

chrisvanderkaap wrote:

dropped the bomb on my 'budget build'.

28F/28R

H+son Archetype 28h/ Miche Primato Black/Sapim race black/ black brass nipples

Your money, but it is not clear to me why you invest 70 pounds in hubs and 150 in spokes... :shock:

sorry i was mistaken, the wheels are being build with the traditional leader spokes.

C

cycleclinic

56 black Race spokes do not cost £150 not even close. I would use the race spokes it will only cost a few pounds more than leaders. The Race spokes should cost around £45 in black as that what I would sell them for. Sapim black brass nipples will add tiny ammount to the build cost as they are very cheap.

Also if you have never had the Miche hubs try them they are as good as hubs many times the price, they even have proper preload adjusment and are easy to service.maintain not that they need that very often.

Price is not always a good indicator of quality or suitability ofr intended use, it is a good indicator of what people are willing to pay. Chris King hubs fall into that latter catagory I feel.

What is important in a hub is not the name or how smooth it roll or any such nonsence (all hubs roll smooth and the power consumed by a draggy/rough hub is so small you will never notice unless it is really bad). What is important is the hub dimensions, specifially the hub flange diameter the and the centre of the flange to centre of hub distance.

The bigger all those numbers are the higher the bracing angle is. The bracing angle stongly influences how stiff the rear wheel is. Most front hubs give good bracing angles but not all rear hubs do. The bracing angle is also influenced by spoke length (shorter spokes give a higher bracing angle). So what makes a good hub is
1) the bracing angles, as high as possible on the rear (and the front).
2) Ease of servicability- what is the point in a hub that require expensive tools to service (DT Swiss and Chris King for example).
3) Bearing life
4) Tension balance on the rear wheel
If a hub flange cracks then that hub is not really worthy of spokes. A balance of all these four characteritics is needed.

The Novatec rear F482 hub give excellent bracing angle. The Dura ace 7402, 7700 and 7800 are even better (Shimano 105 and ultegra hubs are excellent too). The Miche hubs are also very good in this regard. Also all these hubs are easy to service. The Miche and 105, uletgra and Dura ace hubs have good bearing life even if riden in the wet. The Novatec are fine if you are careful. The Dura ace and Novatec hubs give better tension balance than the Miche hubs do but Miche hubs are cheaper than the Shimano offerings and are 11 speed compatible.

Chris King hubs give good tension balance, and give good bracing angles but not easy to service (special tools required to remove bearings) and are very expensive.
DT Swiss 240 hubs as nice as they are give poor bracing angles on the rear, require special tools to remove bearings and.
Shimano hubs are cup and cone and can be serviced with cone spanner and a axle vice.
Miche and novatec hubs can be serviced easily with allen keys. Main bearing removal is easy usig cheap bearing extractors and a very simple bearing press is need to push the new bearings home. Freehubs just pop off.
Hope hubs are simple to service but do not give the best bracing angles.

So some cheap hubs are really quite good. There is more to hubs than a name.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

56 black Race spokes do not cost £150 not eve close. I would use the race spokes it will only cost a few pounds more than leaders. The Race spokes should cost around £45 in black as that what I would sell them for. Sapim black brass nipples will add tiny ammount to the build cost as they are very cheap.

Also if you have never had the Miche hubs try them they are as good as hubs many times the price, they even have proper preload adjusment and are easy to service.maintain not that they need that very often.

Price is not always a good indicator of quality or suitability ofr intended use, it is a good indicator of what people are willing to pay. Chris King hubs fall into that latter catagory I feel.

For some reason I read CX ray... my fault and yes, good choice... :oops:

jgsi

Camcycle1974 wrote:

JGSI wrote:

VeloJay wrote:

Fantastic replies thanks. I think I am leaning towards 24/28 spoke count radial front, 2 cross rear. Might have a think about the hubs a little more. Novatec should be fine as I plan to only use these wheels in dry weather. But I do rack up the miles training for racing so am a little worried about the bearing life mentioned. If only I could afford those CK hubs....

Thats the config I chose... but I did push the boat out for Chris Kings on the basis that they will probably outlive me.

Wheel envy. They look amazing! Red Chris Kings? Can you post up a pic of the hubs please?

asprilla

Brake track after a couple of thousand miles;



And here are the silver ones;