14 weeks to the Marmotte; what can/should I focus on?
Comments
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Imposter wrote:You're spot on about the equipment needed to analyse pedal dynamics though. Kind of reinforces the point that the speculation and conjecture we've been reading about so far is somewhat worthless, no?
So it is complex or it isn't? I'm confused.com0 -
bernithebiker wrote:Imposter wrote:You're spot on about the equipment needed to analyse pedal dynamics though. Kind of reinforces the point that the speculation and conjecture we've been reading about so far is somewhat worthless, no?
So it is complex or it isn't? I'm confused.com
well you said it was - and you're a mechanical engineer - so you must be right
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So after 5 pages ...i still dont know what i have to do to gain significant improvements in my sustainable power, on an alpine climb... ? apart from "improve my technique"....HOW ?
To me having read through this stuff, the really important point here is the 6w/kg of the typical pro winning on AlpDuez.......... numbers no one here has.
why do you need complex equipment? surely a PM will pick it up....?
i dont doubt there are marginal gains to be had but cycling racing isnt swimming where a slightly dif hand position or leg kick results in 1/10ths of a 50m time, where the dif btwn winning and coming last is measured in fractions of seconds.0 -
13 weeks to go, hope you have used the previous week to good effect. The call for evidence the whole time is a little simplistic, we generally have little if any evidence for what we do. we do it because we have been taught and because every one else does it the same way. Imposter do you need a Randomised Double Blind trial of 2000 subjects before you will believe or try anything? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/
I think I will try and increase my aerobic fitness and sustainable power as well as pay attention to my bike riding technique, what have I got to lose?
read this http://www.bookdepository.com/Performan ... 14081465140 -
Imposter wrote:His success is probably not in question. But you used his example as.....actually, I'm not really sure why you chose to bring it up. It's certainly got feck-all to do with cycling.
I brought that up to show that athletes many times more successful than Nibali can still learn from an experienced coach. The example was in terms of type of training, as both rowing and road cycling are endurance sports, so an example based round rowing training would be readily understandable, at least to those with an open mind; I thought details of Grobler's rowing-specific technical coaching and differences vs the previous GB regime would certainly be out of place on a cycling forum. (One of my previous posts highlights heel-striking vs toe-striking in running, though. The former is what feels most comfortable, so by your theory, when you're tired running, you stick to this. The latter is the technique exhibited by all leading distance runners. One wonders why they do this, rather than following your advice!)0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:One wonders why they do this, rather than following your advice!)
What advice? I haven't offered any. Other than the suggestion that advice should be questioned/validated if necessary.FatTed wrote:I think I will try and increase my aerobic fitness and sustainable power as well as pay attention to my bike riding technique, what have I got to lose?
Nothing whatsoever to lose. Although I'd be interested to know how you plan to actually improve your pedalling technique (assuming that's what you were getting at) as we are pretty short on details here.0 -
Just restate my case, it really isn't that controversial. I think
Pedalling is a motor skill. Like every other motor skill it varies between individuals in terms of efficiency. These differences are in part genetically determined and are in part the result of adaptation. With focused training individuals can facilitate the process of adaptation, resulting in performance gains
This makes it similar to every other voluntary motor skill we use. I'm afraid I still have difficulty dealing with the vehemence of those who demand scientific "proof" this is the case.
Their position seems to be (as I said they are quick to troll, much slower to make a positive statement so it's hard to pin down):
Pedalling is an innate skill that is everyone is born with a magical ability to perform perfectly. Trying to improve it is just a waste of time.
If true it would make pedalling unique in being the only skill of its type. It seems to me if anyone is being asked to "prove" anything it is them, given how outlandish and unorthodox their views are.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Still waiting for details of how your 'pedal technique' improved your sustainable power - but the pretty graphs you posted in another thread are not evidence of that. I think that's all anyone is asking for. We're never going to get an answer to that, are we?
Another question you avoided in the other thread was from Alex - who improved his sustainable power after a lower-leg amputation. Presumably, the amputation would have seriously affected his motor skill, but his power still increased. If motor skill is so esssntial, how could that have happened?
I find it amusing that you think I am trolling, when I'm simply trying to pin you down to a few facts
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mamba80 wrote:So after 5 pages ...i still dont know what i have to do to gain significant improvements in my sustainable power, on an alpine climb... ? apart from "improve my technique"....HOW ?
To me having read through this stuff, the really important point here is the 6w/kg of the typical pro winning on AlpDuez.......... numbers no one here has.
As is so often the case, confusion arises because advice differs according to rider ability.
To try and simplify, how about 3 categories;
1. Accomplished, experienced rider, aiming to finish in top 300
2. Competent club rider, reasonably fit, aiming to finish in top 3000.
3. Relative beginner, little experience of mountains, bit below average fitness, aiming to finish with a pulse.....!
For 1), I would say you are probably beyond the scope of this forum, more a giver of advice than a taker. Bahzob has given some excellent advice which I think is more appropriate to this 'Cat 1' rider.
For 2), Keep working on base fitness at this stage, integrating more and more FTP type efforts as we go into May/June, building up the duration from say 5 to 60 mins. Work on keeping pedalling smooth, even at the end of your 60 min session. Make sure you're happy with hydration and feeding issues. Tweak bike position if need be.
For 3), Try to get out on the bike as much as possible, don't worry too much right now about pushing too hard, just get the hours in. Make sure you are comfortable on the bike for 3 hours+. Don't finish your rides exhausted as it'll dissaude you from going out the next day. Check your gearing; is it as low as it needs to be? Find any hill >8%, however short - can you spin OK (>70rpm) in your lowest gear? If not, change cassette. As we go into May, see if you hold a Zone 2 HR for 10, then 20, then 30 mins. Try and hold Zone 3 for 1 hour, don't worry about speed or slope. Keep position good, and pedalling smooth, have a mate check on that for you. Keep cadence high.
Voila, hope that might help someone, I'm more top 500 than top 200, but still, I've done a few of these over the last 15 years and maybe there are 1 or 2 useful bits and bobs above.0 -
Having got the above off my chest I will try, again, to explain why this is relevant to this topic.
One feature of all skills is that their efficacy varies as a function of stress. The harder you are trying to do something the more difficult it is to maintain good form.
One thing that differentiates top athletes of most any sport is how easy they look while performing feats we mortals can't imagine. Just compare a pro golfer hitting a ball 350yds with a weekend hacker. If you have ever watched a professional football match from the touchline rather than the stands what strikes you is the sheer speed, athleticism and pace of the game, yet (most) footballers are still capable of exercising a level of ball control and skill way beyond the Sunday morning player.
Cycling is no different. Look again at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1dxx2jlFLg 15 or so minutes in. The lead group are going up a climb close to Hardknott pass in terms of difficulty at a power output both absolute and relative to their max that would be beyond even the best amateur riders. Yet they look as if they are on Sunday morning run.
No clearer example of this is how they are pedalling. Nice high cadence with smooth power delivery right through the stroke. IOW "souplesse".
Most people here may pedal something like that when pootling along in a Sunday morning group on the flat. Set them a mountain to climb and their form breaks down and their form turns into a slow motion display of struggling. By the top every pedal stroke looks like its torture.
In large part this is because they have poor technique. Mountains are the ultimate test of technique because they force you to go hard for long and there is no hiding place.
Sorry but I am going to be arrogant again.
As far as I can see I am, by a country mile, the person here who knows the most about climbing mountains. I have climbed more and done them faster.
Yet I am humble enough to realise when I look at how the pros ride that I could be better and seek to do so, in part, learning from their technique. If a rider the quality of Bradley Wiggins says he recognised he had issues in the way he pedalled a bike and did drills to improve it and got better as a result I think that maybe he is on to something and should give it a go.
So I have. And I have got better, a lot better.
TBH regards the trolls above, I really couldn't care less. If they want to fail and continue failing then fine. But it pisses me off if their negative approach is contagious and affects those like the OP who actually want to improver rather than just troll.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Bahzob, your point is clear, and I agree with 99% of what you say.
But specifically, whilst training, how to make sure pedalling is smooth? What are the drills? What to look out for? How do you know you're getting it right?0 -
Yawn. Posting pics of pros going up mountains is not relevant. Of course they are going to look better, because they put in 35+ hours a week in training and have thresholds higher than most of us could ever dream of. That is not, in itself, a justification for adopting a certain pedal technique FFS.
You are not the person that knows the most about climbing mountains - although you do take the KOM for blind arrogance - by a country mile (or a country km, si vous preferez).
By the way, anyone who disagrees with this is a failure and a troll.0 -
Imposter wrote:Still waiting for details of how your 'pedal technique' improved your sustainable power - but the pretty graphs you posted in another thread are not evidence of that. I think that's all anyone is asking for. We're never going to get an answer to that, are we?
Another question you avoided in the other thread was from Alex - who improved his sustainable power after a lower-leg amputation. Presumably, the amputation would have seriously affected his motor skill, but his power still increased. If motor skill is so esssntial, how could that have happened?
I find it amusing that you think I am trolling, when I'm simply trying to pin you down to a few facts
I've already replied. Go read it. And then please confirm your view, which I take to be that
"pedalling is some sort of unique magical god given ability that everyone does perfectly even when it looks as if they are more falling off their bike than riding it. Trying to get better at it is just a waste of time".
I wouldn't have raised the subject of Alex but since you did. While he may be reluctant to admit the case it strikes me he is more an example supporting my case than anything else.
As I have repeatedly made clear pedalling like any skill is made up of two primary sets of components
- Those you are born with
- Those you can improve through training.
So when you say his "motor skill" was affected yes it was, but primarily the former. By his own admission Alex didn't spend any time on the latter.
The accident forced him to do so. In effect he made up for the loss of some of the contribution he was born with by learning how to pedal better. Pretty much what I am saying folk should do.
My view predicts exactly what happened. Someone who is untrained gets better at pedalling if they spend some focussed time trying to improve.
You are confused, it is yours that predicts this is impossible.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Imposter wrote:Yawn. Posting pics of pros going up mountains is not relevant. Of course they are going to look better, because they put in 35+ hours a week in training and have thresholds higher than most of us could ever dream of. That is not, in itself, a justification for adopting a certain pedal technique FFS.
You are not the person that knows the most about climbing mountains - although you do take the KOM for blind arrogance - by a country mile (or a country km, si vous preferez).
By the way, anyone who disagrees with this is a failure and a troll.
Really you don't have a clue. Do you even ride a bike?
Yes the pros riders have higher thresholds. But when they hit these thresholds they hurt just the same as us.
The whole point is:
The riders in this clip are pushing out over 6W/kg. Relative to their threshold this is much higher than the typical average rider struggling up the Marmotte mountains. They are riding at something like 85-90%, the amateur will be more like 50-70%.
Yet they make it look easy and the amateur hard.
That is what being skilled at something is.
I get it. You don't. That is why I am a better rider than you and will continue to get better while all you will do is troll (and not even be very good at that.) Now please shut up and go away.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Anecdote, conjecture, argument from authority. How dare anyone question you?0
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bernithebiker wrote:Bahzob, your point is clear, and I agree with 99% of what you say.
But specifically, whilst training, how to make sure pedalling is smooth? What are the drills? What to look out for? How do you know you're getting it right?
The simplest answer is find a Wattbike and use it regularly. It provides real time informattion on your pedalling and you learn via biofeedback which is way better than trying to read stuff and apply. (Another aspect true of learning any skill).
It was using one of these that provided my eureka moment when I realised even though I was putting out good power numbers my style was pretty crap and I was interested to find out what would happen if I changed it.
If can't find one then say. I will try to explain, but not here.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Imposter wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:One wonders why they do this, rather than following your advice!)
What advice? I haven't offered any.
Maybe "advice" is the wrong word. You said upthread that when you're struggling up a climb, you just do what's comfortable or words to that effect. I'd interpreted this as your advice as to how to best tackle a challenging cycling event.
The evidence from other endurance sports (in terms of the proportions of top performers using particular techniques, rather than a biomechanical/physical justification) is that the optimal technique is rarely what feels comfortable. (Lightly coached exponents of a discipline use a different technique to the highly coached top performers. It seems logical to assume that in the absence of coaching, folk default to what feels comfortable.) I'd be surprised if cycling is any different, though the magnitude of the impact is likely to be less than for unambiguously technically complex sports such as rowing.0 -
Tom Dean wrote:Anecdote, conjecture, argument from authority. How dare anyone question you?
They can. They just need to provide a reason for me to respect them.
One of the sad things about this forum is, frankly, the quality of the contributors is not what it used to be.
Back when I started posting here I was very much on the side of Alex and others who, back then, were the heretics suggesting that training with a power meter was better than just relying on feel.
One of the most ardent old school die hards was a guy called Mike. He was wrong ofc but I had huge respect for him and he was a better rider (power meter or not) than I will ever be.
He did a sub 20 10TT pre aero. When we weren't arguing about power he offered me some advice about how he did this which I still use now. In fact it's sort of ironic because in fact it's one of the drills I use when I do long climbs.
Sorry but I really don't think you or the other trolls here have earned the respect I gave Mike.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Glasgowbhoy wrote:Having ridden it in 2011 I'd focus on 1 hour - 2 hour efforts at just below threshold which will simulate the climbs on the day. Get out and ride as many 60-100+ mile hilly routes as you can and maybe some sportive events in the next couple of months too. Hope you get round ok. It's still one of the toughest days on a bike I've had. The heat was my biggest limiter
This-I rode the 2011 and it was 35C that day.Below threshold works if you want to finish.Good luck and stay safe. Whats the solution? Just pedal faster you baby.
Summer B,man Team Carbon LE#222
Winter Alan Top Cross
All rounder Spec. Allez.0 -
My 2p on the subject is that you cannot be specific about this kind of thing. I seem to naturally ride with my heels down, and have had a bike fit by Adrian Timmis at Cadence sport, who said as much.
To come out and say that you need to copy a single example, or say better riders pedal in a specific way is completely incorrect and gets people upset.
For the vast majority of people, time on the bike and actually riding up hills is where they need to spend their efforts.
Another anecdote is that the fastest rider that I know (who races Cat 1) has the most uneven pedal stroke according to the Watt bike measurement amongst our group. He has been riding for a lot longer than me and puts out more power than I ever will, so does that mean I should copy him? He is also has a totally different body composition to me with different length legs and muscle make up, so why should I use him as an example of how I should pedal?0 -
bernithebiker wrote:But specifically, whilst training, how to make sure pedalling is smooth? What are the drills? What to look out for? How do you know you're getting it right?
If you can find a reasonable length hill with a constant(ish) gradient, you could try riding up several times in succession at low to mid range heart rates (ie sustainable, so fatigue isn't a major issue) using various techniques and see which one gets you up fastest for the same heart rate.
Whether this will distinguish between subtly different technique is another matter. In my rowing days, the difference between slouching (which comes very easily) and sitting up straight at the finish of the stroke gave a 5bpm difference in heart rate for the same speed on a rowing machine. (Sitting up straight = lower heart rate = better technique to use, but easy to forget to do it!)
There is probably less scope for variation in pedalling action than a rowing stroke though. And a rowing machine works in a much more standarised environment than a bike on a road climb.
It would be a good way to provide some variety in a session of hill repeats, though!0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:Imposter wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:One wonders why they do this, rather than following your advice!)
What advice? I haven't offered any.
Maybe "advice" is the wrong word. You said upthread that when you're struggling up a climb, you just do what's comfortable or words to that effect. I'd interpreted this as your advice as to how to best tackle a challenging cycling event.
The evidence from other endurance sports (in terms of the proportions of top performers using particular techniques, rather than a biomechanical/physical justification) is that the optimal technique is rarely what feels comfortable. (Lightly coached exponents of a discipline use a different technique to the highly coached top performers. It seems logical to assume that in the absence of coaching, folk default to what feels comfortable.) I'd be surprised if cycling is any different, though the magnitude of the impact is likely to be less than for unambiguously technically complex sports such as rowing.
Well said. An e.g. is the earlier subject I raised about heel position.
Letting your heel drop during or after the drive phase of a pedal stroke is , definitely, a bad thing.
It's a double whammy
- It acts as a shock absorber, you actually lose power as a result
- It occurs at the worst time. It means the dead spot occurs sooner and is even more dead, so the start of the next stroke will be harder as a result.
This is especially bad on long climbs. During the dead spot you lose a lot more momentum>speed. The steeper the climb the worse this effect is. If every stroke has to start by re-accelerating the bike its much more inefficient and tiring.
However long endurance efforts like mountain climbs are also precisely the ones that will affect the lower leg muscles. The incline can also make it feel more "natural/comfortable" to let the heel drop.
The lower leg muscles are amongst the most fatigue resistant in the body, so you may not even notice they are failing, especially since this tends to coincide with a lot of other pain.
I know this is a fault I have. I have finished some long climbs in a torpor, only realising at the end my heels are sagging making things much harder than they need to be.
So I make a conscious effort on long climbs to spend some time at regular intervals just concentrating on making my heels maintain good form. If I have slipped this means switching from a "comfortable" ride to a slightly more focussed one. However it soon feels a lot better. It also has a tangible effect. I ride with a power meter and the simple act of doing this adds 5-10W to my power, which is significant over the sort of time the ride will take and just one example of how technique helps improve sustainable power.
It also serves another purpose. The good thing about heels is they feel no pain (at least on mountain climbs). So while I am concentrating on them doing something positive it helps shut out negative vibes coming from elsewhere.
In fact if things are really tough just focussing on heel form and blocking out everything else is one of my emergency tactics.
As said many times, if you struggle on climbs then doing the above or similar is just, in my book, common sense.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:bernithebiker wrote:But specifically, whilst training, how to make sure pedalling is smooth? What are the drills? What to look out for? How do you know you're getting it right?
If you can find a reasonable length hill with a constant(ish) gradient, you could try riding up several times in succession at low to mid range heart rates (ie sustainable, so fatigue isn't a major issue) using various techniques and see which one gets you up fastest for the same heart rate.
Whether this will distinguish between subtly different technique is another matter. In my rowing days, the difference between slouching (which comes very easily) and sitting up straight at the finish of the stroke gave a 5bpm difference in heart rate for the same speed on a rowing machine. (Sitting up straight = lower heart rate = better technique to use, but easy to forget to do it!)
There is probably less scope for variation in pedalling action than a rowing stroke though. And a rowing machine works in a much more standarised environment than a bike on a road climb.
It would be a good way to provide some variety in a session of hill repeats, though!
Yes good suggestion, I should have mentioned this.
Drills I use are to
- Keep constant cadence but increase power (e.g. just by doing a ramp workout changing down at regular intervals)
- Keep constant power but vary cadence 50-100+ rpm
Hills are good place to do this if they are long enough and not too steep.
Idea is that the power delivery to the pedals should be similar at all times, with a smooth build up to an extended drive phase and holding form to the bottom of the stroke when the opposite leg takes over. This is easy at low resistance/low revs but gets harder as these increase.
Pros can maintain this sort of form right up to threshold and beyond, from 70rpm to 110rpm and beyond, if you are untrained form breaks down to just become once a rev hard as you can 60rpm thrash.
The other thing you are looking out for is that every muscle that can help contribute useful power is doing so and doing so at the right time. I know, for example, that I used to focus on my quads which ended up doing most the work, while my backside pretty much went along for the ride. Now it has to pay its way.
One thing I do to train this is when I do a MAP test I link every power increment to another bit of the body helping provide the power. So at 200W I just pootle, 220W get my hip flexors to kick in, 240W I focus on knees etc. I "save" the big quad, ham and arse muscles for the last 3 minutes. They do work before ofc but only really get to work then. This works on 3 fronts,
- it helps train up all the muscles that can be used
- it helps get them working at the right time in a co-ordinated manner
- it ends up producing a higher MAPMartin S. Newbury RC0 -
bahzob wrote:Tom Dean wrote:Anecdote, conjecture, argument from authority. How dare anyone question you?
They can. They just need to provide a reason for me to respect them.
...
Sorry but I really don't think you or the other trolls here have earned the respect I gave Mike.
Were you really waiting 6 pages for bernithebikers's sportive results before actually giving some detail about what you do?
You have not been 'trolled' on here by any stretch of the imagination.
If your advice is only for those you respect, and who will accept it without question, maybe a public forum like this is not the best place to post it.
Get over yourself
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Never seen so much willy waving in my entire life as exhibited on this thread. Shame on you all.0
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Er, I don't suppose he gives a monkey's about my results.
I had the impression he wouldn't take advice or criticism from someone he had no respect for... :?: at least that's the way I read it.....0 -
phreak wrote:Never seen so much willy waving in my entire life as exhibited on this thread. Shame on you all.
If you're going to dish out advice, I think you need to back it up with credentials of some kind, after all, would you listen to cycling advice from a rank beginner?
It's important to clarify where you are in the cycling hierarchy or confusion results from a v.good rider giving inappropriate advice to a beginner and vice versa.
Although I do agree that there are ways and means of stating your 'level'..... 0 -
phreak wrote:Never seen so much willy waving in my entire life as exhibited on this thread. Shame on you all.
I think I have to agree with this... 6 pages and ultimately we seem to have gotten to the conclusion that to get up the Glandon.. Galibier etc etc you need to
pedal
apparently
:roll:
I'm glad I just road race... no time to think about sh1t apart from pain management0 -
bahzob wrote:Really you don't have a clue. Do you even ride a bike?
Yes - for quite a while. Do you even ride a bike??bahzob wrote:The riders in this clip are pushing out over 6W/kg. Relative to their threshold this is much higher than the typical average rider struggling up the Marmotte mountains. They are riding at something like 85-90%, the amateur will be more like 50-70%.
Yet they make it look easy and the amateur hard.
Because they train at those intensities all day, all week, every month. Had that not occurred to you?bahzob wrote:That is what being skilled at something is.
No, that is what pro-level fitness looks like. It comes from lots of bike riding, not some magical pedalling technique.bahzob wrote:I get it. You don't. That is why I am a better rider than you and will continue to get better while all you will do is troll (and not even be very good at that.) Now please shut up and go away.
You ridiculous man - you really do need to learn how to win arguments through evidence, not insults. Tom said this earlier and I will say it again - get over yourself.0 -
JGSI wrote:I think I have to agree with this... 6 pages and ultimately we seem to have gotten to the conclusion that to get up the Glandon.. Galibier at a speed that fully exploits your potential etc etc you need to
pedal efficiently
apparently
:roll:
I think this revised (in bold) version of your post is more accurate, though this is just my personal view.0
