14 weeks to the Marmotte; what can/should I focus on?

barrybridges

I'm riding the Marmotte in July, having previously attempted it (and failed) in 2008.

I've been training seriously since January, with my focus in the first two months on losing weight and getting a good base of fitness underneath me. I'm aiming to lose more weight leading up to a month before the event (I'm not slim, but could well be 'not overweight' by June based on my current progress).

Although I know what I'm doing on a day-to-day basis, I really don't have much of a clue about what my training strategy ought to be - or could be - in the final 14 weeks.

At the moment I've been confined largely to the turbo due to the weather, although I have managed to get out for a 40 - 50 miler once a week on average.

Each month I'll do a longer ride, tagging on an additional 10 miles each month. I'm up to 80 miles now, which I'm very comfortable with. I shouldn't have any problems completing a hilly 100, or longer, by July, at a fair clip.

Overall, my level of fitness is decent, but I don't know how best to use my time on the trainer and time on the road over the remaining few months. I've got the strength, but what now?

My aim is to put in a good showing in the marmotte, which personally I'd like to be silver or gold category. In other words, I'm not just 'looking to finish', but I want to be able to maintain my effort, not fade and get a decent time.

I appreciate that it's a 'how long is a piece of string' type question, but where's best to focus my attention? Greater strength? Speed? Intervals? Increasing my mileage?

Any thoughts/feedback/experience would be welcome.

glasgowbhoy

Having ridden it in 2011 I'd focus on 1 hour - 2 hour efforts at just below threshold which will simulate the climbs on the day. Get out and ride as many 60-100+ mile hilly routes as you can and maybe some sportive events in the next couple of months too. Hope you get round ok. It's still one of the toughest days on a bike I've had. The heat was my biggest limiter

twotyred

What happened in 2008? Whatever it was you need to make sure it doesn't happen again.

First thing with the Marmotte is that its probably going to be the hardest ride you've ever ridden (this is probably why you are doing it) so take your training seriously and above all be consistent. Being a weekend warrior is not going to work. Get as light as you can- it looks like you are taking action here. Don't over complicate things in training, the web page below will tell you everything you need to know- the only thing I would disagree with is the high gear grinding which isn't necessary if you are appropriately geared.

http://www.centurytraining.com/training-for-la-marmotte/

Aim to do the first three climbs at the top of zone 3 i.e. top of tempo pace (comfortably uncomfortable about 80%-85% max HR) and then give Alpe d'Huez whatever you have left at the end.

Alpine climbs are best simulated in the UK by long tempo intervals so get plenty of those in plus 2x 20min at threshold. Generally make sure you are doing some kind of tempo, sweetspot or threshold work on every long ride. Mix in hill repeats or other shorter higher intensity intervals too to keep your body guessing.

You don't need to be doing a century ride every weekend. Train consistently and you will get the training load you need. My longest training ride for my two Marmottes was 4 hours but that was part of an 8-10 hour training week. Having said that do get 2-3 century rides in. Sportives are good for this. You get to practise riding in groups and you can work out your nutrition strategy.

If you can make a week of it and get 3-4 days riding in France beforehand getting used to big climbs and the heat. This will fatigue you a bit but IMHO the acclimatisation is worth it. I did this on my first Marmotte, on my second I was fitter and lighter but went out on the Thursday and suffered more in the heat ending up with the same time I did on the first.

ju5t1n

I’m doing the Marmotte again this year and looking forward to it. I’m planning to do a couple of hilly 200k Audax rides beforehand to get a bit of distance in my legs. That usually does the trick. Only 14 weeks away - crikey!

oldwelshman

You need more miles for sure. It is not the easiest ride to get a gold standard in and would be surprised if you do at currentl level of training.
The training required depends on your target. Long steady rides will build up endurance, but if you want gold standard need some long hard efforts also. Personally I am not a fan of the much quoted 20 x 20 having never completed one lol I did try one once. I prefer my training to be mixed and for my Marmotte we did long steady ride every saturday with a blast to the cafe, of last few miles home, probably same as a 20 x 20 but more fun ;-)
Important thing is to know your limit and not get dragged in to riding with a group faster than you. This catches a lot of people out early in the ride.

andyeb

If I were in your shoes, I'd get the advice of a coach - it will cost, but could make the difference between success or not, come the big event.

wallace_and_gromit

oldwelshman wrote:

Important thing is to know your limit and not get dragged in to riding with a group faster than you. This catches a lot of people out early in the ride.

This is key - I have ridden boringly to heart rate in both my Marmottes. I plodded up the Glandon at my limit of 150 (this is just my limit, obviously. Others' will vary) with the odd foray above this e.g. on the steep section after the short downhill. It was quite frustrating, as it felt "easy", and I was getting overtaken by a fair few folk who I felt sure I should be faster than!

Last year, according to the detailed results, I was in something like 3500th position (based on cumulative times, not order over the timing mats) at the top of the Glandon. I maintained a heart rate target, albeit at 5bpm higher on the Telegraphe and was again getting overtaken a fair amount. By the end, I finished 2200 and something, having taken back relative positions at every checkpoint. On the Alpe, I was generally overtaking people, despite being handicapped by a very dodgy back.

Garmin analysis indicates that my VAM declined slightly throughout the day, but as I improved significantly on relative positions, I conclude that I declined a lot less than most in my time range, benefitting from my steady start.

Conclusion: Start slowly. Ride your own ride (though it's worth expending a bit of effort on the flat before the Telegraphe to get onto a big bunch). The Glandon, Telegraphe and lower slopes of the Galibier should feel relatively easy. If you have been too conservative, then there's plenty of climbing on the upper slopes of the Galibier and on the Alpe for you to "dish it out" and make up any lost time!

bahzob

I am lucky enough to be one of the better riders in the Marmotte and similar, finishing in the top couple of hundred.

I think the answer comes in several parts, some covered above:
- First and foremost analyse the reasons for your failure in 2008 and decide what needs to be done to avoid a repetition. Post specifics here if you need help with this.

- The main focus of training should be towards the demands of the climbs, not long distance per se. The best training for these is to find a local cycle club and enter their time trial events . You don't need to worry about your finishing position or relative time to the others. The simple fact of being involved in a "race" will help push yourself hard, make you fitter and get used to pushing out steady consistent power for long durations. These efforts will be harder than you will do the climbs at, but are great for training both mind and body.

If you are training on a turbo you can also simulate these climbs by doing long "tempo" efforts at target pace. These should let you identify exactly how to pace. As it happens I am doing a series of these at the moment and will post example here later this week.

- Other training should be a mixture of harder shorter efforts to improve threshold effort and longer distance rides for pacing.
--- The shorter efforts should be intervals, some sessions with of 12-20 minutes, others 4-6 minutes. Just do sets going very hard for the interval duration, rest 5 minutes and go again. Repeat until you can't complete. My personal favourite way to do these is to use power/speed as a measure. First time I will do the intervals at 95% or so effort setting a target mark in terms of power or speed. Then every time I do the session again I aim to go a bit harder/faster. I find this challenging making it easer to complete the intervals and naturally it will mean slowly increasing intensity with time which is the basis of a good training plan.
(Note: These intervals are at a much higher intensity than you will be riding the event itself. Their purpose is to make you fitter, not to act as a pacing guide. If at any time you find yourself going as hard during the Marmotte, ease off.)

-- The longer rides should be structured. The ideal imo is to have 2 rides that simulate the course itself:
--> One that replicates the timing/effort profile from the start to the top of the Telegraph.
--> A second that replicates the timing/effort profile from the top of the Telegraph to the finish.
---> So they will not be steady efforts but a series of very long tempo intervals followed by long recovery efforts. Paradoxically this will probably mean the route is pretty flat avoiding steep climbs.
----> Do these regularly, imagining you are riding the route itself and check out pacing and other factors like food etc.
---> 2-3 weeks before the event itself do a full ride of both routes as a full simulation of the event itself. If it goes well then bank the experience and resume normal training. If it goes badly learn from it and repeat hopefully with success.

- The long rides will help check out factors like bike setup and feeding. Still if you have not already had a proper bike fit I would get one done asap.
- It would also be good to find a local hill with around a 8% long slope. Do some climbs on this at target effort, aim is not so much to train body but be sure gearing is correct. At your target pace on this sort of slope you should have enough low gears to turn legs over at 70rpm and still have at least one more gear to change down to.

- All in all you will be spending a lot of hours on the bike. Aim to maximise this time by doing more than just putting in the miles. One specific thing to work on is pedal technique. How you pedal can make a big difference to how easy/hard the long climbs are. The aim is summed up in one word: smooth (the French call it "souplesse"). You should imagine you are pedalling in circles putting out a flat line of power with no peaks/troughs through each pedal revolution. The nature of the pedal stroke makes this impossible to achieve in practice but you can feel you are getting close during recovery sections of rides. When switching to the work sections this will be a lot harder and you will notice a peak on each leg each rev. Aim to make this peak as smooth as possible, it should feel as if its 25% or so of a rev not 5%. If you can achieve this it translates into a much less fatiguing way of climbing the mountains that feature in the Marmotte and similar.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

- The main focus of training should be towards the demands of the climbs, not long distance per se. The best training for these is to find a local cycle club and enter their time trial events . You don't need to worry about your finishing position or relative time to the others. The simple fact of being involved in a "race" will help push yourself hard, make you fitter and get used to pushing out steady consistent power for long durations. These efforts will be harder than you will do the climbs at, but are great for training both mind and body.

A club 10 by itself is unlikely to be efficient use of training time, in terms of duration vs intensity.

bahzob wrote:

One specific thing to work on is pedal technique. How you pedal can make a big difference to how easy/hard the long climbs are. The aim is summed up in one word: smooth (the French call it "souplesse"). You should imagine you are pedalling in circles putting out a flat line of power with no peaks/troughs through each pedal revolution. The nature of the pedal stroke makes this impossible to achieve in practice but you can feel you are getting close during recovery sections of rides. When switching to the work sections this will be a lot harder and you will notice a peak on each leg each rev. Aim to make this peak as smooth as possible, it should feel as if its 25% or so of a rev not 5%. If you can achieve this it translates into a much less fatiguing way of climbing the mountains that feature in the Marmotte and similar.

Evidence please, that this makes any difference.

twotyred

You should imagine you are pedalling in circles putting out a flat line of power with no peaks/troughs through each pedal revolution.

I don't think this is really necessary. Just make sure you are geared appropriately and not having to mash down on the pedals and you'll be pedalling smoothly enough on the day.

A club 10 by itself is unlikely to be efficient use of training time, in terms of duration vs intensity.

Riding out to the course doing the TT and then riding back home would be better.

Tom Dean

twotyred wrote:

Riding out to the course doing the TT and then riding back home would be better.

Possibly, it depends.

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

Riding out to the course doing the TT and then riding back home would be better.

Yes good suggestion.


As for pedalling my suspicion is that neither of you have actually ridden up many real mountains.

If you had you would understand why pedalling smoothly makes a difference.

The reason is quite simple. Mountains are not flat.

A bad pedalling style is characterised by big force peaks spikes with long gaps between them. You can get away with this on the flat because you lose little momentum when you are not applying power. You can't on mountains, erratic power delivery is tiring because each revolution consists of a rapid acceleration followed by a period of braking as gravity takes over until the next rapid acceleration. Ultimately this is tiring, the more so the steeper the climb. Further in order to generate power in short bursts bad pedallers need to make more use of fast twitch muscles, on very steep sections of climbs they are effectively trying to sprint which is ofc not the best idea.

That's why the French, who have real mountains in their country, have come up with the term "Souplesse" to describe how to climb. It means you apply the same power per rev but through a longer portion of the stroke resulting in more consistent power and lower peak force which in turn means there is little or no time when you lose momentum. Because the peak force requirements on steep sections are less you make more use of the endurance muscles that you should be using for such efforts, saving the fast twitch muscles for what they are best for.

All the above is why every time you watch the pros climbing mountains you will see them pedal in a quite different manner from the average sportive rider. This despite the fact they will most likely be closer to their limit in terms of % of FTP.

They are still fallible though. Bradley Wiggins has said he looks at the pedalling style of his rivals to see if they are flagging. He specifically mentions that he knew Nibali was cooked when his heels started to drop.

The point here is that many amateur riders don't even have a clue where their heels are or should be in the first place.

You may think you know better than me and Bradley Wiggins. But as I said, if you do, please cite evidence in terms of mountains climbed/results achieved.

Tom Dean

I asked for evidence that pedalling technique makes any difference. not for a load of drivel about what you think you have seen the pros do on tv, or what 'the French' say.

I have ridden up mountains but I don't think that means people should take my word as gospel, or that this somehow aligns me with Bradley Wiggins, as you do. I suppose I haven't done a 'gold' in the Marmotte though :roll:

twotyred

As for pedalling my suspicion is that neither of you have actually ridden up many real mountains

Does completing two Marmottes count?

Alright I did them in silver medal time so not as fast as you but I think your performance has more to do with you being fortunate enough to have an FTP of around 300 watts than anything to do with smooth pedalling.

barrybridges

Thanks for your advice - it's been really helpful.

My focus has been on simulating the event itself. First though, why did I fail in 2008?

First and foremost, I just wasn't prepared physically and also not prepared mentally. Nor technically.

What I mean by that is that I'm sure I might have completed it, but I was really taken by surprise by how 'serious' even the slowest riders are.

By the time I reached the top of the Glandon, there weren't many people behind me - and I was climbing at what I felt was a fairly decent pace.

By the time of the feed station at the bottom of the Telegraphe, I was really saddened to see the feed station had been totally dismantled with no food or refreshments there, just a tap.

I was - I admit - a bit shocked as I didn't expect to be near the very back (I wasn't last, but pretty close). At that point, I threw in the towel, totally demoralised, even though I'd ridden the Telegraphe and could have gone further.

In terms of technical, I just didn't have the right gearing on my bike. I should have had a better granny gear. I was grinding up the Glandon in my lowest, which was still far too big. I was drained.

Finally, I just hadn't prepared. It was totally my fault. I've run 5 marathons with relative ease, have ridden long events before - and just assumed I could turn up on my current level of 'day-to-day' training and complete it. I was force-fed humble pie and suffered the embarrassment of waiting for the broom wagon at the bottom of the telegraph, pretty lonely.

As I've said, I'd consider myself very fit. But I just didn't expect to feel so relatively unfit compared to everyone else.

This time, I've been training 4 days a week on average, with a rest day inbetween for recovery normally. I've been fairly restricted to the turbo, but have been combining some sufferfest with intervals, plus blocks of 2 x 20. Once a week I'll try to simulate a climb by doing nothing more than grinding out a tough gear for an hour. Pretty boring, but I figure it replicates the actual event well.

On the road, I'm trying to build up nice long runs to get used to being in the saddle for a long period of time. Today I rode 85 miles from mid-Surrey to Newhaven and back, taking into quite a lot of hills (Ditchling).

Around this, I also end each ride with Chalkpit Hill in Oxted, which is 10.6% average and has 21% sections. I figure that this is fairly representative of tackling the first 3 hairpins on Alpe D'Huez when you're exhausted. I always attack this climb, to really push myself.

I feel like I could comfortable (well, uncomfortably) complete the distance in itself, but haven't factored in the climbs yet. One area where I think I'm weak at the moment is in my general 'leg strength' if that makes sense. I can ride at a good pace for 50 - 60 miles but then the pace drops (and my HR goes up at the same effort) any further.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

The reason is quite simple. Mountains are not flat.

who knew !?!?!

Incidentally - 'souplesse' does not describe climbing. That's not me saying that by the way, it's the French.

twotyred

One area where I think I'm weak at the moment is in my general 'leg strength' if that makes sense. I can ride at a good pace for 50 - 60 miles but then the pace drops

That's just lack of fitness and endurance, probably due to being restricted to the turbo over the winter. More road rides will sort you out. Have a think about your pacing. Could you be starting too strongly? Maybe try throttling back at the start of the ride and play yourself in, which might give you a faster finish

I've run 5 marathons with relative ease,

When you are climbing up a col you're working as hard as a runner. During the Marmotte you could be climbing for 7-8 hours- that's two marathons in one day. Marathon runners- bunch of whimps

Get some consistent road riding done to build up endurance, keep some threshold work there to tune the top end, sort your gearing out, practise your feeding strategy and you'll be fine.

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

As for pedalling my suspicion is that neither of you have actually ridden up many real mountains

Does completing two Marmottes count?

Alright I did them in silver medal time so not as fast as you but I think your performance has more to do with you being fortunate enough to have an FTP of around 300 watts than anything to do with smooth pedalling.

This is a training forum. To get any use out of it you have to be willing to get out of a rut and try something different, accepting along the way that those who do things better than you may have some advice worth listening to.

I find your and others attitude above, amazing on three counts;
- First you seem to think you somehow know better, not just than me but than professional riders of the calibre of Bradley Wiggins
- Second that you can spend hours a week on a bike and think its not worth spending any attention on improving how you actually ride the damn thing.
- Third that you can think having an FTP is in some way "fortunate" and doesn't involve training and working at improving every aspect of how you ride, including ofc how you actually apply power to the pedals.

Seriously if you feel this way why bother posting here?

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

One area where I think I'm weak at the moment is in my general 'leg strength' if that makes sense. I can ride at a good pace for 50 - 60 miles but then the pace drops

That's just lack of fitness and endurance, probably due to being restricted to the turbo over the winter. More road rides will sort you out. Have a think about your pacing. Could you be starting too strongly? Maybe try throttling back at the start of the ride and play yourself in, which might give you a faster finish

I've run 5 marathons with relative ease,

When you are climbing up a col you're working as hard as a runner. During the Marmotte you could be climbing for 7-8 hours- that's two marathons in one day. Marathon runners- bunch of whimps

Get some consistent road riding done to build up endurance, keep some threshold work there to tune the top end, sort your gearing out, practise your feeding strategy and you'll be fine.

This is utterly useless and incorrect. When you are climbing a col you are not working as hard as a runner in terms of the amount of stress you are subjecting your body to. If you think you are and that doing one Marmotte is the equivalent of 2 marathons it's just further evidence you really don't have a clue and should be listening to rather than giving out advice.

twotyred

I find your and others attitude above, amazing on three counts;
- First you seem to think you somehow know better, not just than me but than professional riders of the calibre of Bradley Wiggins
- Second that you can spend hours a week on a bike and think its not worth spending any attention on improving how you actually ride the damn thing.
- Third that you can think having an FTP is in some way "fortunate" and doesn't involve training and working at improving every aspect of how you ride, including ofc how you actually apply power to the pedals.

I do work on my pedaling more so in the past than now because I've come to realise there isn't any evidence that trying to pedal circles is important despite what Brad Wiggins may have observed about Nibali. I think if you are pedaling at a reasonable cadence and not mashing the pedals then that's good enough. However if you have some evidence rather than anecdotes from Wiggins let's see it. If you don't then maybe you should do some listening.

The OP asked for some advice on how to best use the next 14 weeks until the Marmotte. Doing pedaling drills is IMHO not an effective use of his time.

If you take HR then climbing a col is as hard as running. Yes of course there's no impact but I was getting across the point that being able to run a marathon is no guarantee of finishing the Marmotte.

I've been professionally coached, have worked on my riding for years and consider myself well trained however no matter how much I train I'll never get near your FTP so therefore I consider you fortunate to have a genetic head start on me.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

- First you seem to think you somehow know better, not just than me but than professional riders of the calibre of Bradley Wiggins

Apparently, Wiggins was once quoted as saying he saw somene's ankles dropping, so that must prove that Bahzob is correct. Either that, or it is simply an irrelevant 'appeal to authority' which actually proves nothing.

"A pro once said it, so it must be true." Just think how stupid that actually sounds.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

... including ofc how you actually apply power to the pedals.

'ofc'? Really? Do you think no-one notices that you ignore all requests for evidence on this point?

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

...The OP asked for some advice on how to best use the next 14 weeks until the Marmotte. Doing pedaling drills is IMHO not an effective use of his time.

If you take HR then climbing a col is as hard as running. Yes of course there's no impact but I was getting across the point that being able to run a marathon is no guarantee of finishing the Marmotte.

These are examples of why you fail and really should not be offering advice here but rather taking it.

Anybody training for the Marmotte will be spending a lot of hours riding a bike between now and the event itself.

An intelligent approach to training would take a look at this time and ensure that every minute of it is spent as usefully as possible.

This should include working on technique. The whole point is that you do NOT do separate pedalling drills. They are largely a waste of time. But you do concentrate on delivering smooth power especially as the demands increase. When I do hard intervals the actual power target is secondary. My main goal is to keep a good consistent style and not let my form break down as the going gets really tough. I usually hit my power targets but this is pretty much as a result of keeping form stable.

Many poor riders kid themselves they know how to pedal properly because they can do nice circles when pootling along. Their form however breaks down the moment they are put under stress. You only have to look at the sad souls struggling up the climbs on events like the Marmotte to see that and get all the evidence you need about the importance of developing pedalling skill as part of training.

FWIW I do more each training session than just aim for power targets and work on pedalling. I also will be testing out feeding strategies, visualising parts of the course I plan to ride on and practising other skills that make the difference between success and failure e.g. putting on/taking off a gilet while still on the move.

All this adds up to a real "effective" use of time. To reiterate you seem to think that people are better than you because they are lucky. They may be to an extent. But the evidence you have presented so far demonstrates they are also willing to learn, work harder and way smarter in their use of time.

Your view on marathons is just a further example of a negative attitude that typifies those who fail. I am way better at events like the Marmotte than you and, I bet, push myself far harder than you do when competing in them. However I would not make an arbitrary judgement that its harder than a marathon. Rather I would tell anybody that has done a marathon by saying they obviously have the right mental attitude and endurance to do the Marmotte and similar and should take encouragement from that.

You are btw simply wrong in your comparison. What causes fatigue is a whole lot more than just HR. Running is far more stressful on the body than cycling, which is why even averagely trained cyclists can do events like the raid Pyrenees while it would take a pretty exceptional athlete to do the 2 marathons a day for 5 consecutivee days that you would equate that to.

Seriously you and similar here would be better of shutting up and listening.

bahzob

Tom Dean wrote:

bahzob wrote:

... including ofc how you actually apply power to the pedals.

'ofc'? Really? Do you think no-one notices that you ignore all requests for evidence on this point?

I have offered evidence it's just that you don't choose to accept it.

Anyway it's really for you to provide the evidence given how outlandish your position is. Your and others position is clear from the selective quote above.

You believe that it does not matter how you apply force to the pedals.

Seriously? You honestly think that you are just as good as the best cyclists in the world at doing this? You seriously think that someone who has spent a couple of hours riding a bike is as good at pedalling as someone who has spent a couple of decades doing so?

If you do you are deluded.

imposter2.0

bahzob wrote:

You only have to look at the sad souls struggling up the climbs on events like the Marmotte to see that and get all the evidence you need about the importance of developing pedalling skill as part of training.

So, nothing to do with the fact that they might be generally lacking in fitness then?

Other than that, the whole post has a rather arrogant air of "I am right because I am awesome - and you are not" about it.

bahzob

Imposter wrote:

bahzob wrote:

"A pro once said it, so it must be true." Just think how stupid that actually sounds.

Not nearly as stupid as "Someone way more accomplished than me said this but ofc I know better" that's for sure.

bahzob

Imposter wrote:

bahzob wrote:

You only have to look at the sad souls struggling up the climbs on events like the Marmotte to see that and get all the evidence you need about the importance of developing pedalling skill as part of training.

So, nothing to do with the fact that they might be generally lacking in fitness then?

Other than that, the whole post has a rather arrogant air of "I am right because I am awesome - and you are not" about it.

Yes and part of the reason they are lacking in "fitness" is because they are wasting time and effort by not actually pedalling the bike correctly, making mountains much harder to climb than they should be.

And in terms of arrogance. This kicked off because someone who doesn't have a clue decided they know better, and offered stupid advice. That sounds pretty damn arrogant to me.

FatTed

For what its worth bahzob makes sense, I have done many of these rides, not that well, but have been in the company of much better riders, they have done what bahzob is suggesting, I am now
Fred Matheny's coaching advice is very similar to bahzob, he stress keeping form all the time. We all have experienced when getting tiered how our form breaks down, I guess that is what Wiggo was referring to.

imposter2.0

I don't think anyone would dispute that form and technique begins to deteriorate when you tire. Surely on that basis, the obvious answer is to extend the point at which you begin to tire (by improving aerobic fitness and sustainable power), rather than work on some marginal 'pedalling technique' - which, on tired legs, will make very little difference anyway.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

bahzob wrote:

... including ofc how you actually apply power to the pedals.

'ofc'? Really? Do you think no-one notices that you ignore all requests for evidence on this point?

I have offered evidence it's just that you don't choose to accept it.

Anyway it's really for you to provide the evidence given how outlandish your position is. Your and others position is clear from the selective quote above.

You believe that it does not matter how you apply force to the pedals.

I don't think I have put forward a position have I? I am just asking you to back yours up with something more than a couple of anecdotes.

The onus is not on me to prove you wrong. You keep raising the same ideas, but never provide a shred of anything credible to back it up, in fact, you don't even try.

bahzob wrote:

Seriously? You honestly think that you are just as good as the best cyclists in the world at doing this? You seriously think that someone who has spent a couple of hours riding a bike is as good at pedalling as someone who has spent a couple of decades doing so?

If you do you are deluded.

It depends what you mean by 'good'. There are lots of riders who look smoother than Cancellara did on Sunday. You are probably one of them. I don't think this makes you a 'better' pedaller than he is though.

To claim authority because of your sportive 'accomplishments' is beyond feeble. I am embarrassed for you.

twotyred

I don't think anyone would dispute that form and technique begins to deteriorate when you tire. Surely on that basis, the obvious answer is to extend the point at which you begin to tire (by improving aerobic fitness and sustainable power), rather than work on some marginal 'pedalling technique' - which, on tired legs, will make very little difference anyway.

I know we've had our differences in the past but that's spot on.