Criticism of the Sky train (may contain spoilers)
Comments
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Pross wrote:The thing is you can try the tactic in a Classic (or any one day race) but even if you keep your man in contention he still has to be the strongest finisher of those left. If you are going to keep your man there is he going to beat Sagan in a sprint from a small group, outdo Canc in a 20km solo effort or take J Rod in a steep uphill finish? Chances are you are going to do all the work and someone else will take advantage. The Sky couldn't prevent others taking stage wins in the Tour despite their vice like control, what they can do is prevent their rider losing any / much time to enable them to win through a TT. As we've seen at T-A it can even fail then if there aren't enough TT miles. I really can't see how Sky can win Classics with this tactic alone - they should get high placings and may get lucky but I don't see them having that rider to finish things off. They need to be cleverer than that.
Agreed. I doubt they'd expect to just run mountain/control-train tactics, and win. I'm suggesting that the 'cleverer' bit is specific Kerrison numbers training to get more than one guy to the final opening up all sorts of tactics. Not saying that's rocket surgery, but it's a very different approach than other teams. And their recent track record with novelties has been pretty good.
That said, hard to see how you plan for Sagan....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Macaloon wrote:Pross wrote:The thing is you can try the tactic in a Classic (or any one day race) but even if you keep your man in contention he still has to be the strongest finisher of those left. If you are going to keep your man there is he going to beat Sagan in a sprint from a small group, outdo Canc in a 20km solo effort or take J Rod in a steep uphill finish? Chances are you are going to do all the work and someone else will take advantage. The Sky couldn't prevent others taking stage wins in the Tour despite their vice like control, what they can do is prevent their rider losing any / much time to enable them to win through a TT. As we've seen at T-A it can even fail then if there aren't enough TT miles. I really can't see how Sky can win Classics with this tactic alone - they should get high placings and may get lucky but I don't see them having that rider to finish things off. They need to be cleverer than that.
Agreed. I doubt they'd expect to just run mountain/control-train tactics, and win. I'm suggesting that the 'cleverer' bit is specific Kerrison numbers training to get more than one guy to the final opening up all sorts of tactics. Not saying that's rocket surgery, but it's a very different approach than other teams. And their recent track record with novelties has been pretty good.
That said, hard to see how you plan for Sagan.
stick through his spokes?0 -
Think you have to make Sagan work for it to tire him out a bit. He has to be part of making the break and then making it stick. Recently he has been very good at getting on the back of someone elses work (not to diminish him at all) but He has nt done much to actually create race winning Set ups (as opposed to final coup de graces)
Like disrupting the Sky trains in GT's, Obviously this is all somewhat easier said than done....We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:Think you have to make Sagan work for it to tire him out a bit. He has to be part of making the break and then making it stick. Recently he has been very good at getting on the back of someone elses work (not to diminish him at all) but He has nt done much to actually create race winning Set ups (as opposed to final coup de graces)
Like disrupting the Sky trains in GT's, Obviously this is all somewhat easier said than done....
hmmmm....
*strokes chin thoughtfully*0 -
My guess is that they will be aiming to replicate the P-R scenario on a more regular basis, i.e. end up with numbers in a much reduced group. In the absence of an extra-terrestrial Boonen they ought to be able to make the numbers count better than they did in that instance. It will go against the grain but they'll need to ditch the train which won't work as they''ll just end up towing Sagan or whoever to the win but, if they have the numbers, they ought to be able to get some joy by firing riders off the front in turns. Basically, a pretty traditional tactic...ddraver wrote:That said, part of the trouble last year was that even if they got in the right break, they still managed to totally screw the position up. See the group behind Boonen in last years P-R as a good example or Flecha in Het Neuwsblad. I don't know how you "train"that into a cyclist in Teneriefe though0 -
Above The Cows wrote:TailWindHome wrote:jane90 wrote:
In logic, this is known as the fallacy of the excluded middle. To put the argument as a syllogism:Above The Cows wrote:Just because you choose to use a train it does not mean you are doping. The two things are not necessarily connected.
Moreover, the way you deny something proves nothing. There are only so many ways you can say no. The denial does not have to bare any relation to the thing that is actually being denied. Just because Sky deny doping it does not mean that they are doping, that is the most illogical argument I think I've ever heard.
All highly paid superstars who use an effective mountain-train tactic win races.
All dopers win races
Therefore all highly paid superstars who use an effective mountain-train tactics are dopers
or, if we put it another way,
All cats have four legs
All dogs have four legs.
Therefore all cats are dogs.
So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's not a duck.
Or it is a duck?
You've lost me now.
More like if it has wings, a beak, webbed feet and walks it must be a duck (the quacking kind of gives it away as a duck, leave out the quaking for a second). There is no reason for it to be a duck just because it has wings, webbed feet and walks. You might assume it is a duck based on prior knowledge of ducks but it does not mean it is a duck. If it just has wings, a beak, webbed feet and walks it could also be a swan, a goose, a coot or any number of water birds.
Does this make sense?
How we interpret things is determined by experience, prior knowledge, meaning and context. Because people have seen trains going up mountains before and these trains have later found out to be doping they assume that mountain trains today must also be linked to doping when in fact it could just be a mountain train. In order to prove that Sky is doping you need something more than just a mountain train and winning races. Like with the duck you need a quack to categorically prove it is a duck. What proved that USPS were doping was tests results and witness/rider testimony. Right now you don't have this with Sky all you have is a basic correlation built around similar tactics and race wins.
So we need some dirty rat to sing like a canary?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Is Sky's greatest asset in GTs, namely a team full of 'nearly' top riders, their weakness in the Classics?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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It could well be.
Good to see how the likes of EBH & Stannard are going though as think they could both figure and seem unfazed by the parcours. Hard to tell from the training pics/videos that Sky are releasing as all sunny climbs and intervals with a distinct lack of cobbles.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
I think their depth is pretty good. G, Stannard, EBH, Hayman, Rasch, Eisel should all be there or thereabouts when the selection is down to 30. The first 4 should be there right until the final selection in Roubaix. Probably only G and EBH have any shot of going with the final attacks on the Flanders' hills.
If you watch the Roubaix and Flanders that Sky have previously done, their strongest riders are taking pulls and getting into breaks with 80, 100k to go, and that's just silly. It was like they decided one-day races can't be controlled, so they'd be as chaotic as possible. They just need to calm down.0 -
Danlikesbikes wrote:Good to see how the likes of EBH & Stannard are going though as think they could both figure and seem unfazed by the parcours. Hard to tell from the training pics/videos that Sky are releasing as all sunny climbs and intervals with a distinct lack of cobbles.
Some of the roads they are training on are as bad as the worst cobbled sections of P-R - I know; I was on the Tenerife last week. Recent storms luzzed tons of lava rock all over roads already knackered from before.
Some of the long climbs (esp. the one up the road from Chio in the west) have quite shallow gradients in places with bloody awful surface; and what with maximal efforts being "easier" in warmer conditions (in my experience)... It all made sense why they'd choose there.
In line with previous thoughts on poor logic, can we surmise that because I didn't see a single Sky rider in a week on Tenerife and I also didn't see Rasmussen in Mexico* when he claimed to be there, that they are wilfully misleading the UCI whereabouts programme?
*I wasn't there either.0 -
You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....0 -
junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
OH. MY. GOD.
Does anyone else know about this?0 -
junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
Hmm. a few questions spring to mind:
1) does it make sense to dope as a team? It hasn't since the Festina affair in 1998
2) would they be so careless and leave evidence of dodgy-doctors visits etc. if they were doping?
3) maybe its just a nice hotel?0 -
---dupe post0
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ddraver wrote:Do 'people anti doping' have a particular type of car or something?
I'm sure Cipo used her for moto pacing. Or something.0 -
junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
Do they flee to the mountain to escape the trolls that live under the bridges at sea level?
Cyclists or other sports people never have any other reason for living and training at altitude aside from avoiding the testers?
Those Sky people are so sneaky that they let everyone know that this is where they'll be even releasing photographs of them training and inviting along a journalist. Of course this could be attempting to hide in plain sight or it could be you attempting to derail this thread again with speculation and conjecture. Do you have these records? Do publish them why don't you?
Anyway back to discussion about Sky and their chances for the classics...Correlation is not causation.0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:
Some of the roads they are training on are as bad as the worst cobbled sections of P-R - I know; I was on the Tenerife last week. Recent storms luzzed tons of lava rock all over roads already knackered from before.
Some of the long climbs (esp. the one up the road from Chio in the west) have quite shallow gradients in places with bloody awful surface
Like I said was hard to tell from the videos that have been posted - good to know that you have ridden them though & they are "similar" to what they might expect.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
ALIHISGREAT wrote:junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
Hmm. a few questions spring to mind:
1) does it make sense to dope as a team? It hasn't since the Festina affair in 1998
2) would they be so careless and leave evidence of dodgy-doctors visits etc. if they were doping?
3) maybe its just a nice hotel?
4) Is the hill high enough to have any altitude
5) If team Sky are doping, as a team, then almost certainly the BC track team would be as well, it then becomes an even bigger ball ache trying to keep it all secret. It then takes one jilted Floyd Landis type character and everyone one is in the brown sticky stuff.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Jez mon wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
Hmm. a few questions spring to mind:
1) does it make sense to dope as a team? It hasn't since the Festina affair in 1998
2) would they be so careless and leave evidence of dodgy-doctors visits etc. if they were doping?
3) maybe its just a nice hotel?
4) Is the hill high enough to have any altitude
5) If team Sky are doping, as a team, then almost certainly the BC track team would be as well, it then becomes an even bigger ball ache trying to keep it all secret. It then takes one jilted Floyd Landis type character and everyone one is in the brown sticky stuff.
Some of the Cannondale boys were there a couple of weeks ago. Do you think the doping docs offer a BOGOF across the teams?0 -
The fact the road goes PAST the hotel on its way somewhere else (down another side of the mountain) will tell you that there are in fact at least 2 approaches. Also, at the weekend there was so much traffic in the area of the hotel that jams had formed with coaches, tourists and bikers (come to think of it, I think I did see a big blue van with 'UCI PEOPLE ANTI-DOPING' on)... the docs would be pumping so much saline into them they'd be spitting it out like resuscitated drowning victims...
It was busier up there than in the resort at sea level.0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:The fact the road goes PAST the hotel on its way somewhere else (down another side of the mountain) will tell you that there are in fact at least 2 approaches. Also, at the weekend there was so much traffic in the area of the hotel that jams had formed with coaches, tourists and bikers (come to think of it, I think I did see a big blue van with 'UCI PEOPLE ANTI-DOPING' on)... the docs would be pumping so much saline into them they'd be spitting it out like resuscitated drowning victims...
It was busier up there than in the resort at sea level.
Enough of such geographical sense and observational awareness. All the people were doping doctors. Whole coaches of them carrying free samples straight from the latest secret doping convention deep in a cave under the mountain at the other end of the road.
That wasn't jam either, that was blood from a lorry that had spilled it's load of bloodbags.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:
Some of the Cannondale boys were there a couple of weeks ago. Do you think the doping docs offer a BOGOF across the teams?
What about a Boots style buy 3 and get the cheapest free type offer
Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
But you didn't see the van marked 'Greggs' did you, eh? Delivering all those cheese sandwiches and rolls? Mr Whippy follows it with the ice lollies.0
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Still all things worth noting - particularly check ins from various doctors...0
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Above The Cows wrote:OCDuPalais wrote:The fact the road goes PAST the hotel on its way somewhere else (down another side of the mountain) will tell you that there are in fact at least 2 approaches. Also, at the weekend there was so much traffic in the area of the hotel that jams had formed with coaches, tourists and bikers (come to think of it, I think I did see a big blue van with 'UCI PEOPLE ANTI-DOPING' on)... the docs would be pumping so much saline into them they'd be spitting it out like resuscitated drowning victims...
It was busier up there than in the resort at sea level.
Enough of such geographical sense and observational awareness. All the people were doping doctors. Whole coaches of them carrying free samples straight from the latest secret doping convention deep in a cave under the mountain at the other end of the road.
That wasn't jam either, that was blood from a lorry that had spilled it's load of bloodbags.
The nimble ATC beat me to it, OCD (nice trip report btw), but I'm too stubborn to drop this incoming Kimmage-Cam screenshot of a suspiciously hirsuite Comrade Brailsford interrogating Walsh in the mountain Skylair: "No. I expect you to die, Mr Walsh".
...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Jez mon wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:junglist_matty wrote:You do know why they train in Tenerife right?
Their choice of hotel is on top of a hill with a one road access that you can see 5 miles down (from the hotel)... Easy to spot people anti-doping and the team doctor rounds up all the riders ready to stuff them full of saline to thin their blood and hide traces of doping.
You only have to take a look at the hotel check-in records to find a string of top doping doctors attending whilst team sky were based there; especially a certain mr Aicar!
That said, make of it you will.....
Hmm. a few questions spring to mind:
1) does it make sense to dope as a team? It hasn't since the Festina affair in 1998
2) would they be so careless and leave evidence of dodgy-doctors visits etc. if they were doping?
3) maybe its just a nice hotel?
4) Is the hill high enough to have any altitude
5) If team Sky are doping, as a team, then almost certainly the BC track team would be as well, it then becomes an even bigger ball ache trying to keep it all secret. It then takes one jilted Floyd Landis type character and everyone one is in the brown sticky stuff.
Step Forward Vicky P and Wendy HovenovanovanagelWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
coriordan wrote:Still all things worth noting - particularly check ins from various doctors...
Quite right. I do hope that David Walsh sneaks away the hotel register whilst he's there this week.0 -
LutherB wrote:But you didn't see the van marked 'Greggs' did you, eh? Delivering all those cheese sandwiches and rolls? Mr Whippy follows it with the ice lollies.
Nah Spain isn't it. They only had chorizo and cheese rolls. The Gregg's van got waylaid after running out of steak bakes.
Sorry I'll get back to tomorrow's powerpoint presentation. :oops:Correlation is not causation.0
