Criticism of the Sky train (may contain spoilers)

phreak

Am I missing something with the criticism of the tactics used by Sky when going up a mountain? Ok, they often have a couple of domestiques on the front setting the tempo.

In terms of drafting benefits, obviously that's lower as they go up hill, but whatever does exist is provided for everyone that follows, not just the Sky leaders, so this benefit is imo minimal to Froome/Wiggins.

Other than drafting, the other benefit seems to be that of setting the pace. This seems to be as much a mental thing as anything, as the attacks of 'pure' climbers are often designed to disrupt the rythym and make people go into the red. If a rider (or team) has the mental strength to ignore this and ride at their own pace, then surely that's no bad skill to have?

Whatever tactic is used to get up the mountain, with drafting providing hardly any physical benefit, it's still going to be the strongest who will get to the top first. II mean if you put Armstrong at his juiced up best, he'd still beat whoever Sky put out, simply because he could ride the mountain a couple of minutes faster than Wiggins/Froome have shown they can.

So what's the problem?

iainf72

The only issue is it makes the racing boring. But it's a sound tactic.

Climbers will like changes in rhythm and speed, so what Sky do doesn't really work for them.

We all like the romantic idea of 5 or 6 guys from different teams slugging it out.

alihisgreat

Cycling is a team sport.. and the strongest team is winning stages?

oh the horror!

I honestly don't really care. We're still getting attacks and a super-select group in the last few Kms.. and I think the sky train is tactically more interesting than a load of doped up 'True Champions' seeing who paid their doctor the most.

phreak

I might be naive in thinking that the sport is cleaner now, but if it is could this not simply be the way racing is? You only have to see the change in Contador pre and post ban. He still attacks as of old, but generally those attacks can't be sustained, and certainly not for several kilometres as he used to be able to.

Just seems to be almost akin to riding the super steep climbs such as the Angliru, where it is pretty much just the guy with the best power/weight ratio that always wins. May not be that exciting but it does provide the most worthy winner.

I mean some liken it to the Postal days, but Armstrong would finish off that train by blowing everyone else away by a minute or so. That just doesn't happen now. Just seems to be a bunch of riders confident enough to ride the climbs the way they think best and not worry about what they think are attacks that can't be sustained.

mididoctors

lets see what develops

ratsbeyfus

iainf72 wrote:

The only issue is it makes the racing boring.

Didn't look boring to me.

Turfle

If it wasn't Sky, it would be another team. People were always really excited when Liquigas got to the front with Agnoli, and Capecchi, and Szmyd, and Nibali, and Basso.

kanto

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Cycling is a team sport.. and the strongest team is winning stages?

oh the horror!

I honestly don't really care. We're still getting attacks and a super-select group in the last few Kms.. and I think the sky train is tactically more interesting than a load of doped up 'True Champions' seeing who paid their doctor the most.

This is the problem, cycling is not a team sport. Cycling is primarily an individual sport raced within teams. The victory goes to the individual rider, not the team. I guess this is why so many people fail to see the issue with Sky, as they can't see the format of cycling. At the core of cycling, it is an individual sport. Strongest rider should win, and Sky don't let that happen. Froome will remembered as the guy who should have won the TDF but was denied by his own team, when he was clearly the strongest rider, and could have taken minutes out of Wiggins over the few weeks. It has been shown time and again, both before and after, that Froome is the far superior climber, but Sky basically gifted it to Wiggins.

EKIMIKE

It's devastatingly effective if done well and Sky generally execute it well. It's just about the most conservative tactic out there.

I can understand it more for a non-climber like Wiggins but for guys like Froome and Porte who have shown that they are talented attacking climbers it's frustrating as a viewer who wants entertainment and uncertainty (but no-less logical from a tactical viewpoint).

dab_32

No, cycling is a team sport, that's why there are teams. Tennis is an individual sport, there are no teams. Do you see the difference?

Football is also a team sport, not everyone can score goals, some support the strikers and some sit on the bench. They are still part of the team.

ddraver

Turfle FTW, No Sky in the Giro 2012 just led to Liquigas controlling the race for basso

Controlling the race in this way is a cycling thing, not a sky thing, but people like to pretend its all evil evil Skys fault.

Yawnsome...

iainf72

ddraver wrote:

Turfle FTW, No Sky in the Giro 2012 just led to Liquigas controlling the race for basso

Controlling the race in this way is a cycling thing, not a sky thing, but people like to pretend its all evil evil Skys fault.

Yawnsome...

Remember in the 2012 Giro Basso basically burnt the guys out. In the 3rd week it was generally falling apart. Sky haven't had that problem yet.

phreak

EKIMIKE wrote:

It's devastatingly effective if done well and Sky generally execute it well. It's just about the most conservative tactic out there.

This is what I'm not getting. Why is it?

On a flat road drafting is a massive factor, hence why break aways so seldom work.

Drafting on a climb however is practically non-existant, and even if it was a factor, Contador, Nibali et al were all enjoying the benefits of Uran and Henao, just as Froome was.

What is it about having a couple of guys on the front setting the pace that seems to give Froome so much more advantage than other riders? I mean that's what is being suggested here isn't it? That the team are what's winning it for him and not his own abilities.

alihisgreat

kanto wrote:

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Cycling is a team sport.. and the strongest team is winning stages?

oh the horror!

I honestly don't really care. We're still getting attacks and a super-select group in the last few Kms.. and I think the sky train is tactically more interesting than a load of doped up 'True Champions' seeing who paid their doctor the most.

This is the problem, cycling is not a team sport. Cycling is primarily an individual sport raced within teams. The victory goes to the individual rider, not the team. I guess this is why so many people fail to see the issue with Sky, as they can't see the format of cycling. At the core of cycling, it is an individual sport. Strongest rider should win, and Sky don't let that happen. Froome will remembered as the guy who should have won the TDF but was denied by his own team, when he was clearly the strongest rider, and could have taken minutes out of Wiggins over the few weeks. It has been shown time and again, both before and after, that Froome is the far superior climber, but Sky basically gifted it to Wiggins.

Froome wasn't the strongest rider at the tour?!

Wiggins was riding conservatively since he had such a massive advantage in the TTs over the other contenders.

We'll never know how Wiggins and Froome would have compared if they actually went head to head since cycling is a team sport.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Turfle FTW, No Sky in the Giro 2012 just led to Liquigas controlling the race for basso

Controlling the race in this way is a cycling thing, not a sky thing, but people like to pretend its all evil evil Skys fault.

Yawnsome...

Remember in the 2012 Giro Basso basically burnt the guys out. In the 3rd week it was generally falling apart. Sky haven't had that problem yet.

Well ok, so are you saying that it would be OK if Sky were Crap?!?

(I know you re not iain)

kanto

dab_32 wrote:

No, cycling is a team sport, that's why there are teams. Tennis is an individual sport, there are no teams. Do you see the difference?

Football is also a team sport, not everyone can score goals, some support the strikers and some sit on the bench. They are still part of the team.

At least you can see football is a team sport, but if you acknowledge that, you should have grasped that the win goes to the whole team. If a rider wins the race, does the win go to the team? No, cycling is based upon the general classification of individual riders. Like I said, an individual sport raced within teams. Only sky fanboys seem to treat cycling as a team race.

ddraver

You need to listen to a few Mark Cavendish Interviews Kanto....

Yellow Peril

I mentioned it in another thread but if you watch the 1974 documentary Heroes and Waterbottles about the Giro you see Merckx's Molteni team doing exactly the same thing as Sky. I think it is noticeable that one or two teams have better organised sprint trains post HTC domination. I would expect them also to be developing better mountain trains after seeing Sky's success in that department.

Turfle

16 whole posts before "fanboys" gets trotted out.

kanto, do cycling teams ride as teams?

phreak

Yellow Peril wrote:

I mentioned it in another thread but if you watch the 1974 documentary Heroes and Waterbottles about the Giro you see Merckx's Molteni team doing exactly the same thing as Sky. I think it is noticeable that one or two teams have better organised sprint trains post HTC domination. I would expect them also to be developing better mountain trains after seeing Sky's success in that department.

Sprint trains have clear advantages. They help position the final sprinter in the right place and the drafting benefits on a flat road are obvious.

What are the advantages of having a mountain train that benefit Froome over Contador and Nibali?

inseine

Froome will remembered as the guy who should have won the TDF but was denied by his own team, when he was clearly the strongest rider, and could have taken minutes out of Wiggins over the few weeks

I think that's far from certain. Froome was obviously strong but Wiggins had him easily in the TTs. We'll never know, though it'll be clearer come July.

ianbar

the sky train isnt about drafting, i think its more about riders watt output, by riding how they do they ride a bit faster than most like to ride so whittle down the group till there are only the very best left, but when someone breaks they can't ride at a power for long enough to pull away so end up getting dragged back. hense when the time is right and skys lead man wants to break he has plenty in the tank as he has never had to max his wattage? hope i have made some sense i know what i am trying to say.!

petemadoc

Today's stage was superb viewing. Not sure what all this is about tbh. If people are worried about the Sky train then why not just ride it until there's 1km to go then attack, or if you can get yourselves organised attack with a few other strong riders a few k out. Rocket science it is not, stop winging and enjoy the race.

phreak

Not sure I understand that. So you're saying that by virtue of Sky having a couple setting the pace on a climb, Froome can ride within himself despite there being no drafting benefits, whilst at the same time the pace that Froome can easily follow tires out everyone else?

Surely that just makes Froome the best rider then?

durhamwasp

Isnt it more about the fact that the train doesnt let lone break awayers away, like today went Conty & Nibali went, Sky knew he couldnt sustain his effort, so just kept their tempo up.

I get your point though, makes you wonder if Contador is better just sitting behind Froome all the way and then sprinting for it? Maybes theres too much of a risk in that? At the tour Contador must attack the Sky train, he cant sit behind Froome and outsprint him each mountain, gaining 2 or 3 secs each day, as Froome will likely get it back in the TT.

ddraver

Phreak, believe it or not they do go fast enough to provide some drafting effect, plus, it's as much about having someone who can go at he precise speed the lead rider needs, and also fast enough to prevent attacks and pace changes

phreak

durhamwasp wrote:

Isnt it more about the fact that the train doesnt let lone break awayers away, like today went Conty & Nibali went, Sky knew he couldnt sustain his effort, so just kept their tempo up.

I get your point though, makes you wonder if Contador is better just sitting behind Froome all the way and then sprinting for it? Maybes theres too much of a risk in that? At the tour Contador must attack the Sky train, he cant sit behind Froome and outsprint him each mountain, gaining 2 or 3 secs each day, as Froome will likely get it back in the TT.

That certainly seems the case, but if we make a reasonable assumption that Froome/Wiggins have figured out their sustainable power over a climb, it seems quite possible that they could maintain the optimum tempo whether they had 'pace setters' or not.

I mean everyone is using power meters these days aren't they? Why would they need someone else to tell them the pace to go at?

As for drafting, I read a study tonight saying that under around 18km/hr the benefits are really very small, and besides which, if Contador is sat behind Froome then he's enjoying just as much benefit from the 'train' as Froome is, however small that may be.

ianbar

contador will probably lose out on the tt's if he just sits behind froome. yeah they will have there speeds figured out for the climbs etc but it must be so much easier following others, even if most of that benefit is in the head, at the end of the day the biggest difference in any pro sport at the top is in the head anyway.

dave milne

isn't this more about having enough domestiques able to ride at high threshold (450W maybe) for a long time, meaning anyone who attacks has to go massively in the red and can't sustain it.

as you say the drafting benefits everyone in the group, it'd more about keeping the pace so high only a "superman" can make a successful attack

mroli

kanto wrote:

If a rider wins the race, does the win go to the team? No, cycling is based upon the general classification of individual riders. Like I said, an individual sport raced within teams. Only sky fanboys seem to treat cycling as a team race.

Well, there IS a team prize. There is also often a TEAM time trial. Also, the back up staff, mechaincs soigneurs etc all work for the TEAM. And just as an example, it is tradition for the TdF winner not to take the prize money, but to split it amongst his team as a recognition of their efforts. So it is an individual sport raced within teams AND a team sport raced by individuals.

And re Sky fanboys - I think most of the "pwopah" fanbois think that Wiggins would win the TdF if he raced it by himself.

ianbar

thats what i was trying to say, but better worded!