Help me decide, full suss or hardtail
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I can't see the video, but I imagine its that lad riding a hardtail downhill in Whistler (it gets rolled out all the time). Not sure how this is relevant to the OP, or anyone on this thread really.[/quote]
Nothing personal but isnt it more relevant to the OP than most of your comments; certainly its more relevant than your 'hard tails for the poor who can't afford full suss' comment. I'm afraid that you lost any credibility with that, and I advise the OP to take what you said with a large pinch of salt and get out there and demo a few different bikes -
OP - The good people of this forum can give you a guide and ideas but you'll only get what you want after you've ridden a few on your trails or trails you might ride in future. That includes XC/long HT's, XC/Long full suss - alloy/Carbon/Steel. Get yourself a short list and kick on with demoing them. The best bike is the one you enjoy riding, and as someone said here, thinking about enjoying riding it when you can't get your arse out on it
Family, Friends, Fantastic trails - what else is there
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Chill out guys, it was just his opinion which every one is allowed to have.
To some extent I do agree with styxd. The areas where my 140mm C456 really comes in handy is really when I'd want a full sus. But so far I haven't been able to afford a full sus. I've been saving up so will get one soon. Other times my 100mm hardtail does me just fine.
Everyone is different and in an open forum like this you are likely to get all kinds of opinions. But as already said by some wise people above, try out a few options and get what suits YOU.0 -
styxd wrote:lawman wrote:styxd wrote:jairaj wrote:styxd wrote:... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.
Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.
Yes certainly, I'm not trolling, just trying to speak sense.
In my eyes, hardtails are great because of their light weight, responsiveness and maneuverability. As soon as you stick a set of long travel forks on the front, this is lost. Then you have to add heavier/stronger wheels and tyres and other components that can stand up to the extra abuse they're likely to see due to the long travel forks.
So you end up with a bike that weighs as much as a full suspension bike, without the added benefit of rear suspension, but with dodgy handling due to the massive head angle changes.
Bullshit! Such a sweeping statement with no truth to it what so ever. As an example my c456 has a pretty damn similar spec to my HD, yet weighs a good few lbs less, and on certain smoother xc trails is probably a tiny tad quicker. It doesn't handle remotely dodgy and I've yet to ride a long travel hardtail that handles really poorly.
Smooth XC trails? The fact you're over biked with a mojo HD means a hardtail is bound to feel a bit quicker.
Have you ever ridden a bike that doesnt have a long, heavy fork that can vary in length by 160mm on the front? Try a BMX, a road bike, a dirt jump hardtail or a 4x bike. Responsive, light and great handling. Obviously only the latter are ideal for trail centres.lawman wrote:
I can't see the video, but I imagine its that lad riding a hardtail downhill in Whistler (it gets rolled out all the time). Not sure how this is relevant to the OP, or anyone on this thread really.
The HD pedals better than any of the xc bikes my friends use and lots of people have commented on just how well it pedals and climbs. It's fitted with a fox 32, hardly a heavy fork, my hardtail has a revelation that's barely heavier than a Reba despite the longer travel. Without a reverb the 456 I ride is under 24lbs it's very light and responsive and the HD is also a light and versatile little bike, it can be ridden pretty much anywhere and be good fun to ride. Bottom line is your argument has little substance. Longer travel bikes can work over a much broader variety of trails and still be fun to ride.0 -
lawman wrote:The HD pedals better than any of the xc bikes my friends use and lots of people have commented on just how well it pedals and climbs. It's fitted with a fox 32, hardly a heavy fork, my hardtail has a revelation that's barely heavier than a Reba despite the longer travel. Without a reverb the 456 I ride is under 24lbs it's very light and responsive and the HD is also a light and versatile little bike, it can be ridden pretty much anywhere and be good fun to ride. Bottom line is your argument has little substance. Longer travel bikes can work over a much broader variety of trails and still be fun to ride.
I'm sure the HD "pedals" well (do none of your friends use hardtails though?)
But 24lbs for an LT hardtail! Do you not destroy rear wheels and tyres often?
I dont know how much my LT hardtail weighed, probably 10lbs more than yours though. But I felt to make the most of the fork, I had to use parts that would put up with the abuse. Although I still wrecked a rear wheel/tyres/tubes riding downhill tracks on the continent.
For anything other than downhill, it was just to heavy. I could have fitted lighter parts, but then whats the point of having all that travel at the front? I'd be better off with shorter forks and a lighter more responsive bike thats easier to ride "over" things on, rather than "through" them.0 -
styxd wrote:lawman wrote:The HD pedals better than any of the xc bikes my friends use and lots of people have commented on just how well it pedals and climbs. It's fitted with a fox 32, hardly a heavy fork, my hardtail has a revelation that's barely heavier than a Reba despite the longer travel. Without a reverb the 456 I ride is under 24lbs it's very light and responsive and the HD is also a light and versatile little bike, it can be ridden pretty much anywhere and be good fun to ride. Bottom line is your argument has little substance. Longer travel bikes can work over a much broader variety of trails and still be fun to ride.
I'm sure the HD "pedals" well (do none of your friends use hardtails though?)
But 24lbs for an LT hardtail! Do you not destroy rear wheels and tyres often?
I dont know how much my LT hardtail weighed, probably 10lbs more than yours though. But I felt to make the most of the fork, I had to use parts that would put up with the abuse. Although I still wrecked a rear wheel/tyres/tubes riding downhill tracks on the continent.
For anything other than downhill, it was just to heavy. I could have fitted lighter parts, but then whats the point of having all that travel at the front? I'd be better off with shorter forks and a lighter more responsive bike thats easier to ride "over" things on, rather than "through" them.
Plenty of them ride hardtails, hence why they're often surprised by how well it pedals and climbs! A Long travel hardtail designed and built as an all-rounder will be pretty light, 140mm isn't exactly considered long-travel anymore, sure if you wanna take it to the alps my build wouldn't last long, but for what I ride here in the UK its perfectly acceptable and hasn't missed a beat so far, I've run the same rims on both bikes without any issues and not wrecked either, I'm not a heavy or clumsy rider but they they do get a fair bit of abuse.
It depends on what the frame is designed for and how it's specced, a 456 will smoke a 4x bike round an xc trail despite the longer forks, which is why you're comments lack a real point, taken in the right context, a well designed 140mm hardtail is arguably one of the better type of bikes to have for the uk, they're incredibly versatile, I even raced XC on my old maxlight with a 140mm fork and was limuted only by fitness in keeping up with pure XC race bikes.0 -
Just saying, to say that all long travel hardtails handle like barges and are totally pointless is a pretty daft thing to say.The Beginner wrote:
Exactly.....ilovedirt wrote:Exactly, long travel hardtail makes sense for me,0 -
Understand that, but at the end of the day it's the "FOR ME" that's the 'biggest' part of the statement, telling someone you don't know, don't know how they ride, don't know where they ride, don't know how they like to ride, what type of bike to get is daft....
Personally I'd like to get some 120's on the front of my Carrera, and I like my daughters with it's 135mm forks (though as a 13.5" frame it feels more like a BMX than an MTB) and when I demo'd a Trek Superfly Elite carbon and Pivot Mach4 both bew me away in totally different ways, if I had both which I rode would depend on the ride that day!Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
I'm sure Acer1957 has lost the will to live. Poor chap just wanted some advice. He won't make that mistake again eh ;D
PS If you don't get long travel hardtails, you're obviously too rich and discerning, sat atop your Santa Cruz Carbon TallBoy! ha ha Family, Friends, Fantastic trails - what else is there
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Thanks for all the advice thus far guys. I'm not really into the idea of as long forked hard tail, I really fancy as change to something much quicker over the smoother trails of the Yorkshire Moors and Dalby. Ideally I'm steering towards the Radon from my earlier post. What I would like feedback on is what do you think its limitations are? Coming from a 160 full suss that will smash its way through anything.
I like the idea of the Radon as I can ride it right out my front door along the roads until I hit the hills, something I would not consider doing on my current steed.0 -
Also what do you think to the geometry of the Radon?0
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For my two pence: I've just switched from full-sus to hardtail and am not regretting it at all. The hardtail requires more conscious input but is far more responsive and was actually faster round the the Forest of dean trails last time I went. The thing that really tops it off though is that its just so much more engaging, I tried the same trail on a full sus and it just felt lazy and less inspiring. Hardtails aren't bad downhill too, 120mm cotic soul got me down the corkscrew downhill run pretty safely!0
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Regardless of travel I wouldn't want to ride something with a 71 degrees head tube angle down anything steep and rocky too often. So to OP that radon is fine yeah as it'll be nippy round the twisty stuff and the twice a year you chuck it down steep rocky stuff it'll probably get you down just not as quickly and confidently.
IMO, obviously.0 -
Why don't you go for something slightly slacker with 120mm travel? The Whyte 905 is still a very light quick bike, but would be more forgiving over the rougher stuff than an out and out 100mm xc machine. Maybe a Cotic Soul if you are happy to build / spec yourself? Or if you want a 29er then Cotic Solaris?0
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The Radon is a 70 degree head angle. Cotic Solaris 70 degree with 100mm fork or 69 with 120. Don't 29ers get away with steeper head angles due to the larger wheels?0
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yes 29ers in general have steeper head angles compared to similar 26er bikes.
Oh and there is no such thing as "good geometry" its all personal preference. Some will like a steeper head angle some will like a slacker head angle.0 -
I just think coming from a 160mm bike is going to be such a culture shock, that something a touch slacker or with a bit more travel than 100mm may be wise?
If your set on 29", how about a Whyte 929? 120mm forks, 68.5 head angle so more trail oriented
http://www.whytebikes.com/2013/product. ... 32&xSec=49
http://www.mbr.co.uk/bikes/whyte-529-629-729-929/0 -
Agreed its quite a big leap going from a 160mm full suss to 100mm hardtail.
I'd demo a few bikes and see how they feel. Even if they are not bikes you want to buy it'll give you a rough idea of the style bike you will prefer. Might turn out a 100mm XC racer is what you want or it might turn out that a slacker more trail orientated bike might be better ... ?0 -
I made a suggestion to the OP, long travel hardtail seemed a good compromise to me, but that wasn't the point of my post. Seems like you're just arguing with me for the sake of it.The Beginner wrote:Understand that, but at the end of the day it's the "FOR ME" that's the 'biggest' part of the statement, telling someone you don't know, don't know how they ride, don't know where they ride, don't know how they like to ride, what type of bike to get is daft....
Personally I'd like to get some 120's on the front of my Carrera, and I like my daughters with it's 135mm forks (though as a 13.5" frame it feels more like a BMX than an MTB) and when I demo'd a Trek Superfly Elite carbon and Pivot Mach4 both bew me away in totally different ways, if I had both which I rode would depend on the ride that day!0 -
Actually the opposite, I was emphasising that it's personal, you said a long forked HT was best 'for me' and I'm saying it almost certainly is, but it may or may not be best for the OP, the OP needs to decide based on what he things he likes based on comments with some reasoning (which you did give). If I had to have just one bike and I had a total choice it would be a mid travel HT (120-130mm), but that's what suites me. What I'm trying to say is I don't think anyone should be telling the OP what to get, just what works for them and when and why so he can come to an educated decision rather than 'whoever shouts loudest'!Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0
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Surely he's on an internet forum, so he knows that a reasoned and unbiased argument is absolutely out of the question.0
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I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to styxd's moronic statement about long travel hardtails.The Beginner wrote:Actually the opposite, I was emphasising that it's personal, you said a long forked HT was best 'for me' and I'm saying it almost certainly is, but it may or may not be best for the OP, the OP needs to decide based on what he things he likes based on comments with some reasoning (which you did give). If I had to have just one bike and I had a total choice it would be a mid travel HT (120-130mm), but that's what suites me. What I'm trying to say is I don't think anyone should be telling the OP what to get, just what works for them and when and why so he can come to an educated decision rather than 'whoever shouts loudest'!0 -
Why not get a fork with external travel adjust?0
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supersonic wrote:Why not get a fork with external travel adjust?
Carbon 456 with a dual position revelation? or even a stanton slackline ti...0 -
You'd have to be quick to get the Slackline in Ti, they're only making 30 of them ever apparently.0
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Just had a look at the Whyte 929, good call I think, 25lb and 1 x 10. Any views on this0
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It has the 'contemporary' geometry than many go for - but is only good if you like it.
Personally would not even make my shortlist. Price is ridiculous for an aluminium hardtail and is not light for a 1x10 bike.
Carbon 456 all the way.0 -
On One Scandal 29er if you want a cheap 29er hardtail.0
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supersonic wrote:It has the 'contemporary' geometry than many go for - but is only good if you like it.
Personally would not even make my shortlist. Price is ridiculous for an aluminium hardtail and is not light for a 1x10 bike.
Carbon 456 all the way.
But the OP is leaning towards a 29er and not keen on a long travel hardtail? Also, he is making a leap from a 160 full suss, hence the reason for maybe looking at something with slightly more forgiving geometry.
I haven't ridden all of these 29ers, but surely there is more to a bike than the value for money of the bits bolted onto the frame? IF the Whyte geometry and 120mm travel suits the OP better than a racy carbon 29er (with better components) and it fits his budget, then is it not still worthy of consideration? Of course,there may be other more trail oriented 29ers out there, but the Whyte was just one I'm aware of that maybe worth a look?0 -
Yes I'm coming from a 160mm full suss with slack angles and plenty of weight but have test ridden a Scott Scale Pro back in 2012 and really like the way it rode. It was very light and the angles were steeper but made my local trail centre a whole lot more enjoyable hence looking more now towards a lighter more racy 29er. I have a Vitus Vee 1 29 bike for peddling to work and also the odd trip along the local brideways etc and love that also. Just looking for a slightly more off road version of that, that is light and responsive. Still liking my original the Radon Black Sin also liking the Whyte and also stumbled over a Saracen Zen 650b which is a bit more trail friendly.
Also I think I mentioned my main riding will be the North Yorks Moors and Dalby with only a few trips to the Peaks for the foreseable future so I dont really require 6 inches of travel or I think a long travel hardtail.0 -
chrisw333 wrote:supersonic wrote:It has the 'contemporary' geometry than many go for - but is only good if you like it.
Personally would not even make my shortlist. Price is ridiculous for an aluminium hardtail and is not light for a 1x10 bike.
Carbon 456 all the way.
But the OP is leaning towards a 29er and not keen on a long travel hardtail? Also, he is making a leap from a 160 full suss, hence the reason for maybe looking at something with slightly more forgiving geometry.
I haven't ridden all of these 29ers, but surely there is more to a bike than the value for money of the bits bolted onto the frame? IF the Whyte geometry and 120mm travel suits the OP better than a racy carbon 29er (with better components) and it fits his budget, then is it not still worthy of consideration? Of course,there may be other more trail oriented 29ers out there, but the Whyte was just one I'm aware of that maybe worth a look?
My £70 Kona rides nice, but no reason to charge more for it ;-). That is kind of my point. And what rides nice is purely subjective anyway, I certainly agree with testing. But usually you have to find a shortlist as you can't test them all, and the Whyte just wouldn't make it for me. If you have chance to test them all, then sure, go for it.
The 456 doesn't have to be run with a long travel fork, and a travel adjust unit like a DP Revelation would open up many options.0
