Help me decide, full suss or hardtail

acer1597

Hi Guys,

I currently ride a 30lb+ 160mm full suss and have found a few problems with it. Its fantastic in the Lakes or blasting down a rocky descent in the Peak District but for trail centres and rides in the North Yorkshire Moors its overkill and rather heavy to push up the hills. My local trail centre Dalby used to be so much fun on a hardtail but my full suss makes it boring. I only get to the lakes around twice a year and the peaks 5 or 6 times, most of my riding is in North Yorkshire.

Full suss wise i'm thinking of demoing a Whyte 146 as its nice and light for a full on trail bike. Hardtail wise I quite fancy the Radon Black Sin http://www.radon-bikes.de/xist4c/web/Black-Sin-29-9-0_id_22284_.htm. Seems nice a light and therefore quick. What do folks think? I only want/ allowed 1 bike so the current steed would have to go. Have a road bike as well.

snoopsmydogg

why not look at something like the C456? with something like a u-turn fork fitted you could have a decent light all rounder

rockmonkeysc

I went from a Giant Reign X, 160/170mm travel AM bike to a On-One 456SS hardtail and it's so much more fun and a better bike for 95% of my riding.

EH_Rob

I'm looking at doing something similar very soon, although its more from the point of view that I'm sick of shelling out to maintain a full sus all year round. My Nomad doesn't make the trails I usually ride any less fun, but riding it through the winter was a mistake.

I've been looking at steel hardtails. Ragley Bagger, Blue Pig or Cotic BFe. Possibly a 456 Evo. There are some others but they're the main contenders at the moment. Not too fussed about weight, which may be different to you.

Out of interest, what trails in the Lakes are good for said Nomad? I'm there this weekend, staying at Ullswater. Any recommendations would be useful!

acer1597

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I went from a Giant Reign X, 160/170mm travel AM bike to a On-One 456SS hardtail and it's so much more fun and a better bike for 95% of my riding.

My thinking exactly. What are folks views on the Radon, its a lot more XC focused so where would its limits be to what could be ridden.

I'm drawn more towards a steeper head angle as having ridden a Scott Scale Pro 2012 I really like the way it handled, I know a slacker head angle will give more confidence on steeper techier downs. I feel I may of been drawn into a 160 bike due to all the lovely videos from the other side of the pond and wishing I could do that.

ilovedirt

I ride a (very) long forked hardtail, it's nothing like a super light XC race machine, but it climbs really well (better than my old full sus), weighs a little less and absolutely shreds down the descents, particularly the steep, rocky ones in the peaks etc

styxd

A 120 - 140mm full sus sounds liek it could be up your street.

Long forked hardtails are fairly pointless unless you're poor and cant afford a full sus. All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

EH_Rob

A wonderfully generalistic, sweeping statement there.

Just remember, while we're at it, that tubeless is ace, SPDs are better than flats and 29ers are rubbish.

snoopsmydogg

styxd wrote:

A 120 - 140mm full sus sounds liek it could be up your street.

Long forked hardtails are fairly pointless unless you're poor and cant afford a full sus. All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

popcorn anyone?

cooldad

EH_Rob wrote:

A wonderfully generalistic, sweeping statement there.

Just remember, while we're at it, that tubeless is rubbish, flats better than SPDs and 29ers are the second coming Hallelujah

FTFY

jairaj

styxd wrote:

... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.

styxd

jairaj wrote:

styxd wrote:

... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.

Yes certainly, I'm not trolling, just trying to speak sense.

In my eyes, hardtails are great because of their light weight, responsiveness and maneuverability. As soon as you stick a set of long travel forks on the front, this is lost. Then you have to add heavier/stronger wheels and tyres and other components that can stand up to the extra abuse they're likely to see due to the long travel forks.

So you end up with a bike that weighs as much as a full suspension bike, without the added benefit of rear suspension, but with dodgy handling due to the massive head angle changes.

A short travel hardtail or short travel full sus is the ideal bike for UK trail centres. I havent ridden a trail centre anywhere where I've wanted more than about 100mm on the front.

If you're riding rockier terrain like the lakes, then a 140mm full sus is ideal.

Of course, get a long travel hardtail if you want, but if you've got the cash you're better off with a full suspension bike.

snoopsmydogg

styxd wrote:

jairaj wrote:

styxd wrote:

... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.

Yes certainly, I'm not trolling, just trying to speak sense.

In my eyes, hardtails are great because of their light weight, responsiveness and maneuverability. As soon as you stick a set of long travel forks on the front, this is lost. Then you have to add heavier/stronger wheels and tyres and other components that can stand up to the extra abuse they're likely to see due to the long travel forks.

So you end up with a bike that weighs as much as a full suspension bike, without the added benefit of rear suspension, but with dodgy handling due to the massive head angle changes.

A short travel hardtail or short travel full sus is the ideal bike for UK trail centres. I havent ridden a trail centre anywhere where I've wanted more than about 100mm on the front.

If you're riding rockier terrain like the lakes, then a 140mm full sus is ideal.

Of course, get a long travel hardtail if you want, but if you've got the cash you're better off with a full suspension bike.

So in your infinite wisdom have you ever ridden a purpose built long travel ht and not an xc frame with long forks?

There is a difference and I don't think it has anything to do with money

styxd

Yes, I've ridden various long travel hardtails on downhill tracks in the UK and in Europe. Fun they might be, a full sus is better every time.

snoopsmydogg

Not disagreeing about the fs being good just a bold statement saying ht riders are too poor to buy one.

styxd

snoopsmydogg wrote:

Not disagreeing about the fs being good just a bold statement saying ht riders are too poor to buy one.

Of course its not about being to poor. But its a reasonable option if you haven't got the cash. I rode one because they're a bit of a laugh for downhill, but thats the only time I'd use one - as a laugh for downhill.

As an all rounder, they're poor (in my eyes), if you've got the money, buy something appropriate.

paulneenan76

styxd wrote:

snoopsmydogg wrote:

Not disagreeing about the fs being good just a bold statement saying ht riders are too poor to buy one.

Of course its not about being to poor. But its a reasonable option if you haven't got the cash. I rode one because they're a bit of a laugh for downhill, but thats the only time I'd use one - as a laugh for downhill.

As an all rounder, they're poor (in my eyes), if you've got the money, buy something appropriate.

In your eyes? Are they shut? For the people who are "too" poor to afford a full suss? Wow you really are a special one eh! So your mate let you have a go on his Ragley or Cotic Bfe and you thought, bugger me, this is bloody good, infact, it's as good as my full suss. However, you can't say that, so you tell him that sticking a big fork on and slackening the angle has given him a heavy, unmanouverable, slow, pointless and expensive bike and why did he not buy full suspension? Too poor? Then what I'll do is invade someone else's thread, someone who wants some useful well rounded advice, and post that only the poor or the stupid or the riders lacking any sense or skill would buy a long travel hardtail. So well done - if you started out the day with a goal in mind to present yourself as a bit of ninkumpoop, then you're a real achiever and your badge is in the post.

Take a look at the 160mm production Privee Shan, or a 456 Ti or Carbon or Ragley Ti and say they are pointless or not lightweight, not responsive, not manoeuvrable. I know of 3 people who have ditched full Suss to go back to LT HT's as they felt the fun had gone and their skills were either stagnating or lessening - and I'm talking high end rigs not £1,500 squishy's. I know 2 people that completed the Mega on 160mm HT's and outperformed plenty of £8k bikes and had more fun than the previous year on Spesh Enduro's - go figure!

Most of us understand the features and benefits of having full suspension but anyone who has a long travel hardtail has not bought it withou fully understanding the pro's and cons of owning it - so have a little respect and engage your brain before you engage your gob. It's fair to have an opinion but opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one but it don't mean we share it with everyone else

Remember, best bike for your needs is the one you enjoy riding every day - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

cooldad

TL:DR But it's a fact that only poor people ride hardtails.
Comfortably off people ride full sus.
And rich people ride horses.

ilovedirt

I bought my hardtail because I couldn't afford a brand new full sus, love it though. And for the record, it corners better than my old full sus did, because the geometry is good.

lawman

styxd wrote:

jairaj wrote:

styxd wrote:

... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.

Yes certainly, I'm not trolling, just trying to speak sense.

In my eyes, hardtails are great because of their light weight, responsiveness and maneuverability. As soon as you stick a set of long travel forks on the front, this is lost. Then you have to add heavier/stronger wheels and tyres and other components that can stand up to the extra abuse they're likely to see due to the long travel forks.

So you end up with a bike that weighs as much as a full suspension bike, without the added benefit of rear suspension, but with dodgy handling due to the massive head angle changes.

Bullshit! Such a sweeping statement with no truth to it what so ever. As an example my c456 has a pretty damn similar spec to my HD, yet weighs a good few lbs less, and on certain smoother xc trails is probably a tiny tad quicker. It doesn't handle remotely dodgy and I've yet to ride a long travel hardtail that handles really poorly.

If anything I would say they have some of the benefits of longer travel FS bikes with less weight and less maintenance as well being considerably cheaper. Given the option, I will probably always have a long travel hardtail for winter.

Back to the OP, the 146 is a good bike which I recently reacquainted myself with at a demo day and it still felt good, barring the avid brakes which were awful. Personally I'd take the avids off straight away and fit some Xt's, and fit some kid of chainguide as I lost the chain a few times, which I didn't on any other bike, despite the type2 mech. It also pedals really weirdly in the granny ring, which again I'd ditch and go 1x10, but there is a very good bike in there if setup properly.

sirichmond

Back on topic, I have ridden a light weight 29er hardtail at dalby and found it more fun than my lapierre spicy but dalby is pretty much as pure xc trail centre and the main bonus was it made light work of the hills. I can see the advantages, less weight, no pivots to maintain or squeak etc.

ljs1977

It's all about arsing about in the woods with your mates on bikes innit? - sorry back on topic.

OP:

I am an avid keyboard mountain biker and follower of all trends and bike magazine recommendations - there said it!

But I have just come to the conclusion following 2 years of mountain biking ("properly i.e taking it more seriously") that I dont need a 150mm full suss bike with wide bars, short stem, flat pedals and a reverb.

This is because I am not a knarly (sp) as I thought I would be, I dont get to travel as far with my bike as I thought I would and 90% of my riding is XC in Nottinghamshire and the surrounding areas.

After a demo day I have recent sold my Cube Stereo which I loved (probably the idea of it more) and bought a 29 Carbon Scott Scale - it suited ME, MY budget and MY style of riding.

The main thing was when I was on it i couldn't stop smiling / laughing and when I got off it all I could do was talk about it. Does your current bike do this? Does the bike you are hanging your nose over do this?

Decisions decisions - good luck

Thewaylander

Bit strong replies there to be fair he does say in his opinion. and he damn well entitled to that opinion.

I myself tend to agree as i have never ridden a long travel HT that doesn't ride like a bag of spanners from personal experience.

Torres

I recently rode Dalby on a short travel hardtail and I found myself getting beaten up a bit by all the chatter. I've ridden it on a 150mm full suss and I found it smoothed things out a bit too much; so I guess logically somthing with ~120mm at both ends would be my weapon of choice.

With regards to long travel hardtails; I think they're good to a point. Personally I've found up to ~140mm to be a propper laugh. My Mr Hyde was snappy out of the corners, accelerated well and climbed better than an equivalent full suss. Before this I had an NS surge with 160mm domains upfront, at times I found the front end writing checks the back end couldn't cash. A better rider than myself could probably make it work; but if like me you enjoy smashing out the miles and just having fun without going at warp speeds then the extra weight doesn't really give any benefits.

lawman

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/102365/

Remembered watching this a while back...

Case closed.

The Rookie

My ten pence worth....The choice depends on you
1/ How YOU like a bike to feel
2/ Where YOU ride (terrain)
3/ The duration of YOUR rides.

Money no object I'm sure I'd have 4/5 MTB's for all likely combinations of the above, but money is an object (in the way) so I have one 100mm HT, it's cheaper and lighter than an FS (inherently), and it provides more 'fun' (for me) on my rides, and my elderly knees can cope with it over the lengths and terrain of my rides. I would consider something like my sons Scott Genius (carbon so only a 450g deficit to my frame) with 100mm of rear travel and 120mm forks as it rides in a very similar way but you can sit down overy the 'chattery' stuff that an HT has you out the saddle for.

Thewaylander

lawman wrote:

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/102365/

Remembered watching this a while back...

Case closed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZmJtYaUTa0

Argument over road bikes are awesome for trials and its nothing to do with the rider.

Your developing a bit of a I'm right your wrong, there is no opinion attitude if you read yourself back.

torres i can see what you mean, i had a 150 LT hard tail and it was the front promised much but the back no, and it kinda gave me a bucking sensation in long term riding. But as we always say its opinion.

pesky_jones

lawman wrote:

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/102365/

Remembered watching this a while back...

Case closed.

That's just one example, albeit a good example but hardly provides a definitive conclusion.

ilovedirt

The Beginner wrote:

My ten pence worth....The choice depends on you
1/ How YOU like a bike to feel
2/ Where YOU ride (terrain)
3/ The duration of YOUR rides.

Exactly, long travel hardtail makes sense for me, it gets ridden down some steep gnarly natural and man made (downhill) trails here in north wales. Some decent tyres on there and it handles really nicely. Long travel hardtails do only really come alive when you start pushing them though - my Ragley is amazing once you get it up to speed, you've just got to not touch the brakes Shreds the corners too.
Plus, as I'm a student and I've been riding it all winter, it's considerably cheaper than a full sus in terms of initial price and maintenance. Case closed.
If you can't get the most out of a long travel hardtail, you're not riding it right

styxd

lawman wrote:

styxd wrote:

jairaj wrote:

styxd wrote:

... All the negatives of a hardtail and a full sus combined into one poorly handling package.

Could explain a bit more detail please? Not trying to feed the troll or anything like that just genuinely want to hear your opinion.

Yes certainly, I'm not trolling, just trying to speak sense.

In my eyes, hardtails are great because of their light weight, responsiveness and maneuverability. As soon as you stick a set of long travel forks on the front, this is lost. Then you have to add heavier/stronger wheels and tyres and other components that can stand up to the extra abuse they're likely to see due to the long travel forks.

So you end up with a bike that weighs as much as a full suspension bike, without the added benefit of rear suspension, but with dodgy handling due to the massive head angle changes.

Bullshit! Such a sweeping statement with no truth to it what so ever. As an example my c456 has a pretty damn similar spec to my HD, yet weighs a good few lbs less, and on certain smoother xc trails is probably a tiny tad quicker. It doesn't handle remotely dodgy and I've yet to ride a long travel hardtail that handles really poorly.

Smooth XC trails? The fact you're over biked with a mojo HD means a hardtail is bound to feel a bit quicker.

Have you ever ridden a bike that doesnt have a long, heavy fork that can vary in length by 160mm on the front? Try a BMX, a road bike, a dirt jump hardtail or a 4x bike. Responsive, light and great handling. Obviously only the latter are ideal for trail centres.

lawman wrote:

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/102365/

Remembered watching this a while back...

Case closed.

I can't see the video, but I imagine its that lad riding a hardtail downhill in Whistler (it gets rolled out all the time). Not sure how this is relevant to the OP, or anyone on this thread really.

The Rookie

ilovedirt wrote:

Exactly, long travel hardtail makes sense for me,

Exactly.....