Carbon 29er hardtail advice - Canyon or Radon?

jimmm

Updated again - final time I promise!

I'm going German, but I'm undecided between Canyon's and Radon's 2014 offerings. I'm also backtracking and going carbon if I am going to spend this much.

So with Canyon I am looking at the Grand Canyon CF SLX 9.9 - https://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3177 - 9.4kg - £2,549.00.

With Radon I am looking at the Radon Black Sin SL 10.0 - http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k1275/a103239/black-sin-29-10-0-sl.html - 9.1kg - £2,885.13

Both look like great bikes on paper, but I'm after some advice please. The Grand Canyon range get great reviews everywhere I look, and I know Canyon have a big following on here. The Radon Black Sin looks great and has an amazing spec, but I'm struggling to find any reviews (in English).

I want a frame that's going to last me, and a ride that is going to be worth the thousands of pounds being spent. I also want great customer service in case anything was to go wrong. If I had the money I'd get this - https://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3180 - but I can't justify spending that much at this stage.


This first post has now been updated:
Apologies to everyone who has given me advice and recommended so far...but I'm going to change my criteria

I am still looking to build or buy a 29er XC bike, but I am now looking for either a steel or aluminium frame. This is mainly down to cost of the brands that I am looking at, with carbon and titanium offerings being too expensive. I've noticed that I am a bit of a tart when it comes to how my bike looks, so again this kind of rules out some offerings! Really like the retro(ish) look of steel frames - so I'm leaning towards steel. Would also like to buy British if possible (help the industry and all that!). If I can get my build 25lbs or below then it would be perfect - but it's not a deal clincher now.

This is what I have on my shortlist of frames currently:
- Cotic Solaris (£499)
- Genesis High Latitude (£299.99)
- Kinesis FF29 (£499.99)
- Stanton Sherpa 853 (not yet out)
- Yeti Big Top 29'r (£999.99)

Obviously quite a lot of difference in price - ranging from £299.99 to £999.99! The Yeti Big Top is most likely out of my price range, especially when I take into account the price of components.

Can anyone recommend any other brands that I should take into consideration? Anyone got experience with the above? I know the FF29 has a glowing review from a user here (thanks bernie1973!)


My previous first post was:
As you may or may not have seen in another thread, I am taking the jump from road biking to mountain biking (in the New Forest). I am looking to build a light hardtail XC bike. I have decided to create another thread, as I was specifically asking about Yeti Arc frame sizing in the other. However after the advice on here, I have realised that a 29er frame is much better suited to my needs (and 6'1" height!).

Having the speed addiction from road biking, I am looking to have a <10kg complete build. Therefore the frame will need to be light - so I presume aluminium or carbon (don't think I can afford Titanium!). I have no set budget in my mind at present; but I am not looking to spend crazy money - so nothing above £1,000 please!

Can you please recommend me some frames, or manufacturers to look at? Then I can start sourcing local dealers to have a proper look.

Thanks in advance for any help

Edit: Now also interested in complete build recommendations which come in at 10kg or less

njee20

On One, buy direct from China , or just buy this.

jimmm

Thanks for the recommendations. The Radon bike looks lovely. Hadn't considered buying a complete build, as I thought most would be too heavy. Are there any other complete XC builds that come in at 10kg or less?

What manufacturers are considered to be the best for XC?

supersonic

It doesn't really matter who the manufacturer is nowadays - all are good, and it is just one part (ie frame), out of many. Full builds are becoming very good value. The Radons are exceptional. Canyon also do some sub 10kg builds.

Giraffoto

I'm also planning a lightweight XC 29er build - so far I have an On-One Scandal frame and rigid carbon fork. The frame may not be the lightest, but the fork weighs in at less than 800g, which is getting on for half the weight of most suspension forks. If you're aiming at a target weight, that may be one place to shed a few hundred grams . . .

jimmm

How much is the XX1 groupset likely to set me back? Can't find the complete groupset for sale for some reason. I'm presuming £1,000+? The reviews read very well, and it is definitely something to consider if I'm going for a low weight.

As for the fork, I will be looking to have suspension rather than rigid. Any recommendations for light(er) 29er suspension forks?

njee20

The Radon is certainly good value for an XX1 build but it's not particularly light, and there's not much further you can go in upgrades except for the wheels. Most bikes that come with XX1 are much more expensive but around a kilo lighter. Anyone know what the Radon frame weighs?

Of course there is. The frame's not going to give away 1kg, so you'll easily shave 1kg off elsewhere...

How much is the XX1 groupset likely to set me back? Can't find the complete groupset for sale for some reason. I'm presuming £1,000+? The reviews read very well, and it is definitely something to consider if I'm going for a low weight.

Yeah about £1000, the cassette is the big part at £300, and you need compatible hubs (SRAM, American Classic, Kappius, Hope, Mavic, DT off the top of my head). For a lightweight groupset you'd be daft to look elsewhere right now IMO.

acer1597

I think the Radon frame is 1040g if you read the blurb

njee20

Then they're either more honest about their weight, or the Scott Scale 900 SL isn't really 8.2kg.

supersonic

The Scott is double the price though.

njee20

But has the same groupset, a very similar fork, the same finishing kit and only saves 100g on the frame and 200g on the wheels. There's another 700g to explain away...

njee20

Those Scott/Syncros carbon wheels aren't that light, 1600g or so IIRC. If anything the Syncros finishing kit on the Radon is lighter. Possibly a bit in the saddle. Still not 700g though.

Occam's razor and all that I'm going to say that either the Scott is heavier, or the Radon is lighter than claimed!

supersonic

njee20 wrote:

But has the same groupset, a very similar fork, the same finishing kit and only saves 100g on the frame and 200g on the wheels. There's another 700g to explain away...

We are talking the same bikes here? The Radon Black Sin 29 vs The Scale 900 SL? Finishing kit is not the same - it is completely different! Could be 100g extra in the saddle alone. The bars, and seatpost are certainly lighter on the Scott, given the Radon's seatpost is 250g or so. The fork is lighter by 100g at least. Wheels are 240g less. The Furious Fred EVO on the Scale are a good 150g lighter EACH than the Rocket Ron! (360g vs 510g). Tubes?

I think it is easily explained.

sirichmond

Either way the Radon is amazing value for money in my book.

njee20

Missed the Furious Freds I must say, that gets a lot closer! The Syncros kit isn't light, I'd say on par with the Syntace, as I said above, I concede the saddle is an unknown, as I said above. The fork saves 110g with the carbon crown, then adds 60g back on for the XX damper/Xloc remote. I mentioned the wheels.

I'd assumed same tyres I must say, Freds are fitted purely as a weight saving exercise, they're insanely fast, but I take mine off once someone's sneezed on the trail!

But however you look at it - even if the Scale is 1kg lighter you can buy the Radon and save >1kg for less than the cost of the Scale!

supersonic

Oh I'd get the Radon, without a doubt lol. Diminishing returns and all that ;-)

The Rookie

Plus the weight saving from the tyres isn't 'real' as sooner or later you'd be on the same tyres on whichever bike you bought.

Most people will change the saddle and grips as well negating any weight saving there.

Shouldn't be hard to save on a 250g seatpost either (mine is 233g and cost £15!)

jimmm

Does anyone have experience/knowledge of the Niner Air 9 (hydroformed aluminium) frames? Seem like a good fit for my budget. I believe the Large frame comes in at 1.6kg.

I can't seem to find a UK stockist of the 2013 frame (the Moondust / Black Licorice) - can anyone advise anywhere?

supersonic

Not seen any alu ones on sale, only the 'scandium'.

jimmm

From what I have read the scandium frame wasn't the most reliable, with quite a few frames developing faults. I presume that's why they have gone to the hydroformed alloy now?

supersonic

How much are they to buy?

jimmm

The RRP in the US is $849. The few I have seen here in the UK is £800+ for an older model.

I presume their are better frames at the £800+ barrier. Would be nice if the exchange rate was true and they were just over the £550 mark!

Another frame that has caught my eye is the Kinesis Maxlight FF29; which I believe is around the £500 mark.

supersonic

Seem very expensive to me! Especially compared to this:

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FRPXDH29MTB ... disc_frame

jimmm

Yup very expensive when you compare it to a carbon frame from On One. Unfortunately they only have the garish pink frame left in my size, and looks are rather important to me!

The hunt continues

supersonic

What frame measurements are you after?

jimmm

Being 6'1" I usually fall into the 'Large' frame category.

jimmm

I've sourced a new Niner Air 9 frame in the UK - however the colourscheme I want isn't going to be available for another 5 weeks. They've offered a test ride on the Air 9 Carbon RDO - the flagship frame in the range.

Has anyone had any experience with the new hydroformed alloy frames? Is it worth the £800 price tag - or should I be looking at different aluminium frames (such as the Kinesis FF29 for £500)?

Is aluminium a good frame material for a hardtail XC? I know I will be feeling the trail/track a lot more than a carbon frame - but unfortunately I don't think my budget can stretch to carbon. £800 for a frame is definitely the max I will be looking to spend. Is steel worth considering? I know it will add a bit of weight - but I presume it will soak up whats underneath me better, and be as responsive as aluminium? I believe I will still be able to hit the <10kg target with steel - however there will be a higher cost on other lighter components.

toasty

Scandal 29ers will only be a couple of hundred grams heavier than a new style Air 9, and that mainly comes from the swappy dropouts, which are quite funky if you ever might try singlespeed/hub gearing one day Quite nice forgiving frames.

They're about £600-£650 cheaper and much easier to warranty too. Leaving tons of money for some nice wheels, forks and things.

The PF30 bottom bracket was the other thing that put me off the new style Air 9. If you don't mind them, there's the On-One Lurcher frames too, lighter than an Air 9 and half the price.

Is steel worth considering? I know it will add a bit of weight - but I presume it will soak up whats underneath me better, and be as responsive as aluminium?

I seriously think you'll have a hard time hitting 10kg with steel. Given something like a £6000 S-Works 29er real weight is 9.3kg with a nice light carbon frame.



With even a nice 953 frame you're going to have an 0.5 - 1 kilogram on top of that. You're certainly going to be dropping big money on XTR + top end wheels* + tiny tyres + carbon everything, by which point the nice steel frame is a bit wasted anyway.

*£1200 carbon wheelset on the one above + £1000 groupset + £700 forks

supersonic

jimmm wrote:

Being 6'1" I usually fall into the 'Large' frame category.

I'm a similar height and fall usually between the S and XL category ;-). reason is that geometry varies so much between bikes ie top tube lengths, seat angles and so on. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you need the same size for all bikes. try a few if you can.

I agree with the above about steel, just isn't worth considering for a build like this. Carbon is getting cheaper, is lighter, and can be built in many ways to get a certain 'feel'. Even aluminium is seeing a bit of a resurgence as new techniques are reducing weight here too for even lower prices, yet still providing a tuned ride feel. the Niner is a lot of money for what it is, many things to consider for a lot less money. But if money is not a problem and it fits, why not ;-)

jimmm

Thanks Toasty and supersonic. Looks like my maths were way off when doing the sums in my head if I used a steel frame! Time to stop looking and even considering a steel frame.

Supersonic I have looked at the geometries of the frames I have been interested in, and fall in the large bracket for most when considering my measurements. I will be trying to get a test ride on a frame before I part with the cash, don't you worry

A visit to the LBS is planned tomorrow to have a sit on a few different manufacturer frames.

toasty

If you're considering off the shelf bikes, Cube do some very nice carbon 29ers at the moment:

http://www.cube.eu/en/hard/cross-country/reaction-gtc-slt-29/