Training for ultra-steep climbs (eg Hardknott)

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  • styxd
    styxd Posts: 3,234
    Toks wrote:
    A mate got gold in FW and all his training was done in two hours stints at either Regents or Richmond Park

    Is it possible to win a sportive?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    styxd wrote:
    Toks wrote:
    A mate got gold in FW and all his training was done in two hours stints at either Regents or Richmond Park

    Is it possible to win a sportive?

    The term refers to a 'gold' standard time - not a '1st place' gold.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Toks wrote:
    ...... Why would you carry an extra 3Kg or suitcase of cement as part of your training when its not required for the event- that's madness.
    .......
    6. Get as light as you can for the event
    Eh?

    So training with extra weight won't help, but getting lighter for the event will ?!

    nice when ppl contradict themselves in the same post!

    My view - FWIW - is (other than the technical bike handling requirements) that to get up hills you need to apply a certain amount of power - the power required will be directly related to your speed and overall weight - so you need to train in putting more power down for the longer duration. That requires practice in both your legs and your heart/lungs.
    Dragging extra weight up shallower hills is one way - not unreasonable, but is 3Kg going to make a big difference if your hill is nowhere near the gradient you intend to tackle....
    I dragged a buggy/trailer up a trail (on the back of my CX) the other weekend - complete with child onboard - I took it because I was the fittest of those there - boy did it narrow the field ! A few more of those and I'm sure I'd be better at tarmac hills without the trailer ...
  • styxd
    styxd Posts: 3,234
    Slowbike wrote:
    Toks wrote:
    ...... Why would you carry an extra 3Kg or suitcase of cement as part of your training when its not required for the event- that's madness.
    .......
    6. Get as light as you can for the event
    Eh?

    I dragged a buggy/trailer up a trail (on the back of my CX) the other weekend - complete with child onboard - I took it because I was the fittest of those there - boy did it narrow the field ! A few more of those and I'm sure I'd be better at tarmac hills without the trailer ...

    No doubt good training if you're a Middle Aged Dad In Lycra.

    But I haven't seen anyone who's serious about cycling training using this technique.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    styxd wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Toks wrote:
    ...... Why would you carry an extra 3Kg or suitcase of cement as part of your training when its not required for the event- that's madness.
    .......
    6. Get as light as you can for the event
    Eh?

    I dragged a buggy/trailer up a trail (on the back of my CX) the other weekend - complete with child onboard - I took it because I was the fittest of those there - boy did it narrow the field ! A few more of those and I'm sure I'd be better at tarmac hills without the trailer ...

    No doubt good training if you're a Middle Aged Dad In Lycra.

    But I haven't seen anyone who's serious about cycling training using this technique.

    Everybody rides a turbo on the same resistance setting? No? Do you make it harder for periods? Hmm ... what does that equate too?
    If you have no hills that you can train up then you need a different method up the power required - you can do this by adding weight or increasing speed or even getting on a knackered bike - anything that makes you pedal harder - simple...

    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    I wouldn't recommend the trailer with child as a regular activity cos the child does get thrown around a fair bit ... so can't be that comfortable for them. But I believe the principle is similar.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Slowbike wrote:
    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:
  • Toks
    Toks Posts: 1,143
    styxd wrote:
    Toks wrote:
    A mate got gold in FW and all his training was done in two hours stints at either Regents or Richmond Park

    Is it possible to win a sportive?
    I think it is if you arrive first. Anyone who thinks a Sportive isn't a competitive event clearly has never set off with the front groups... Ooops my Bad. He just sent me a text to say he finished in the top 20 positions and it was back in 2004. I gather FW don't issue Gold, Silver and Bronze ratings. He got Gold in L' Etape and a few other sportives that same year
    slowbike wrote:
    Eh?

    So training with extra weight won't help, but getting lighter for the event will ?!
    nice when ppl contradict themselves in the same post!
    Hmm... let see if we can clarify things for you then. Make your training specific for the event. An extra 3kg may mean you're honking out of the saddle much more. With that 3kg missing you may be able to learn to spin up the climbs in low gears. An extra 3g may mean climbing in a different gear than with 3g etc...of course being lighter always helps. Losing weight is one thing but carry extra weight intentionally is not needed.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Imposter wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:
    No - they go to where there are suitable hills to train on ... duh!
  • lucan
    lucan Posts: 339
    Imposter wrote:

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:

    Jeez! It's halfwit day on the forum!
    Summer: Kuota Kebel
    Winter: GT Series3
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    edited March 2013
    Slowbike wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:
    No - they go to where there are suitable hills to train on ... duh!

    Precisely. Which is the same as saying 'time at intensity' is what really counts in order to see adaptations - not towing a tag-along.
    Lucan wrote:
    Jeez! It's halfwit day on the forum!

    Excellent - so you've fulfilled your obligation then? .. ;)
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Toks wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Eh?

    So training with extra weight won't help, but getting lighter for the event will ?!
    nice when ppl contradict themselves in the same post!
    Hmm... let see if we can clarify things for you then. Make your training specific for the event. An extra 3kg may mean you're honking out of the saddle much more. With that 3kg missing you may be able to learn to spin up the climbs in low gears. An extra 3g may mean climbing in a different gear than with 3g etc...of course being lighter always helps. Losing weight is one thing but carry extra weight intentionally is not needed.
    I would consider the option to stand or sit part of the technical side ... if 3kg is making that difference then cut it down till it doesn't ... although tbh I would think if you need to standup for an extra 3kg weight on your bike then that hill is good training for you without the extra weight ...

    Of course adding extra weight isn't an ideal way to train - the ideal way to train would be to get yourself out to some harder hills, but for many that's just not an option.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Imposter wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:
    No - they go to where there are suitable hills to train on ... duh!

    Precisely. Which is the same as saying 'time at intensity' is what really counts in order to see adaptations - not towing a tag-along.
    Lucan wrote:
    Jeez! It's halfwit day on the forum!

    I love posts like this.. ;)

    Look - it's quite simple - train hard, race easy ... shall I spell that out for you ..

    Make it harder to ride during your training and when you come to the target race/ride it will be much easier.
    Why does the Sky team stay at altitude - because there is less oxygen there - so they're training their bodies to cope with less, so when they get more during a race it's an added bonus. Why don't they drag weights up hills? Because they've got suitable hills to train on ... and they're not stuck with short hills like we've got here down south.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Slowbike wrote:

    Look - it's quite simple - train hard, race easy ... shall I spell that out for you ..

    Make it harder to ride during your training and when you come to the target race/ride it will be much easier.
    Why does the Sky team stay at altitude - because there is less oxygen there - so they're training their bodies to cope with less, so when they get more during a race it's an added bonus. Why don't they drag weights up hills? Because they've got suitable hills to train on ... and they're not stuck with short hills like we've got here down south.

    Look - it's quite simple..shall I spell it out for you ;)

    Climbing a long hill is about sustaining a given effort (intensity) for a given amount of time. You don't need trailers, or concrete bottles, or old car tyres. You just need to train yourself to push the pedals harder for longer - which is an aerobic adaption - and one that you can train reasonably effectively on the flat if needs be. Obviously there are certain differences in riding style when riding up hill compared to riding on the flat, but for the most part, developing your aerobic threshold will improve your climbing much more effectively than any resistance training.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    Imposter wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Those guys that drag sledges to the poles have to train somewhere - nothing comparable in this country so what do they do? Drag tyres around behind them ... it provides a resistance that they can train with so when they get to do it IRL their bodies are not shocked into that as well ...

    yep - that's exactly why the likes of Contador, Froome, etc all train with concrete water bottles, trailers and rock-filled backpacks. Oh hang on....they dont. :lol:

    They probably have access to mountains though? When I used to swim it was not unknown for us to wear baggy shorts now and then because it made training harder. Much the same principle behind using hand paddles etc.
  • racingcondor
    racingcondor Posts: 1,434
    This thread was so promising on the first page...

    I'd suggest that paddles, pool bouys etc are more about targetted training rather than just making it harder. i.e more similar to hill repeats, sprints etc.
  • maryka
    maryka Posts: 748
    styxd wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Toks wrote:
    ...... Why would you carry an extra 3Kg or suitcase of cement as part of your training when its not required for the event- that's madness.
    .......
    6. Get as light as you can for the event
    Eh?

    I dragged a buggy/trailer up a trail (on the back of my CX) the other weekend - complete with child onboard - I took it because I was the fittest of those there - boy did it narrow the field ! A few more of those and I'm sure I'd be better at tarmac hills without the trailer ...

    No doubt good training if you're a Middle Aged Dad In Lycra.

    But I haven't seen anyone who's serious about cycling training using this technique.

    Well I'm quite serious about cycling training and I pull my toddler around in a trailer all the time. If I didn't, I'd never get to ride outside during the week! Generally for 45-90 min SST work though, and often I ride a lap of Richmond Park specifically avoiding the steeper lumps as pulling a trailer has a hugely different inertia to regular cycling and feels nothing like riding up an actual steep hill sans trailer. I have a 34-32 as my lowest gear btw and if I were doing the Fred I'd probably consider using that cassette, but then again I hate my cadence dropping below ~65rpm.

    Best advice is just go ride some steep climbs and find out for yourself what gears you need, what cadence is too low, how to keep your front wheel from coming off the ground, when to sit and when to stand, how to pace yourself and whatever other little techniques you need. Failing that, try some steady steeper hils with a slightly undergeared fixed gear bike. A fixed gear forces your legs to keep turning over as you go up -- helps keep your pedal stroke smooth and cadence even, especially when climbing out of the saddle. Beware your knees though, don't overdo it with too low a gear or too steep a hill, and don't fall off!
    http://www.twitter.com/smaryka
  • nickel
    nickel Posts: 476
    I haven't ridden hardknott but I've ridden a few tough climbs that I guess are comparable (Porlock Hill, Bwylch y Groes etc) and I'd say a key thing is to deliberately take the opening slopes really slow, even if you feel you can go a bit quicker, you'll be glad of it further up!

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