Training for ultra-steep climbs (eg Hardknott)
bengboy
Posts: 12
How do you do it? Intervals up steepest hill around (10-12% for ~80m ascent near me) in high gear out of the saddle? Any other suggestions? Carrying weights in a backpack?
I'm doing the Fred Whitton Challenge this year, and cycled up Hardknott around Christmas time while visiting the in-laws. It cannot be done sat down, and even in first with my new compact and 27-tooth on the back, my cadence is going to be low. Living in Hampshire I don't have anything comparable to train on, so I thought the above might be my best simulation for the real thing.
I'm also doing lactate threshold sessions and longer weekend rides and generally building up time climbing out of the saddle.
Any tips or tricks gratefully received.
I'm doing the Fred Whitton Challenge this year, and cycled up Hardknott around Christmas time while visiting the in-laws. It cannot be done sat down, and even in first with my new compact and 27-tooth on the back, my cadence is going to be low. Living in Hampshire I don't have anything comparable to train on, so I thought the above might be my best simulation for the real thing.
I'm also doing lactate threshold sessions and longer weekend rides and generally building up time climbing out of the saddle.
Any tips or tricks gratefully received.
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Climbing ability will improve inline with your general aerobic fitness and threshold. You haven't said what kind of cycling background you have, or the kind of distances/hours you are currently riding?0
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Yup, I reckon so - repetitions up the steepest hill that's close to you, pushing your biggest gear to make it as hard as possible, and riding it as hard as you can. Make the bike heavy too: carry two large full water bottles (I have a large bottle that's filled with cement for this type of training), load up your saddle bag, stick all your lights on, and put heavy wheels and tyres on if you have them. This is what I do when training for hill climbs, make the bike as heavy as I can, and make the climbing harder than it needs to be to build up strength (not just in the legs , but in the arms as well as I find these get worked hard on a really steep climb). On race day, my bike is 3kg lighter than when I'm doing training on the same bike, and it feels super light and fast having trudged around on it disguised as a clunker - it's a big psychological advantage on race day, having a bike that feels so different.
Don't forget though to intersperse these over-geared ascents with higher-cadence climbing in a low gear - it will help to keep you supple, and ensure you don't permanently change your riding style from spinning to grinding.
One word of caution - over-gearing and grinding up ascents is (obviously) hard work,and puts significant strain on the knees and lower back. The training should be hard, not harmful!0 -
I feel another 'leg strength' thread coming on........0
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To combat that.because I cant take another squats in the gym answer..... OP ask yourself this... on a severe climb , pretend that you are going to fail....Imposter wrote:uh oh, I feel another 'leg strength' thread coming on........
what did you run out of at that point of failure?0 -
There really isn't anything special about ultra-steep climbs. To get over a x% climb using 34/27, spinning at y rpm, you'll need to be able to produce a certain amount of power for a specific amount of time, depending on your weight, etc. You can do some repeats over similar grades to get used to the steepness, but it ultimately depends on your form.0
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I got in to road riding regularly about 15 months ago and have been riding twice a week since. I generally manage an hour/ hour and a half once during the week (often intervals or LT) and a 2 hour ride at the weekend. I've increased this to 3 times a week - LT, intervals and a longer weekend ride (100k last weekend), and am working my distance upwards. I did two races last year and can acquit myself in cat 3/4 races and the fast group of one of the local clubs.
I will try and weigh my bike down a bit, but wondered if carrying a 5-10kg backpack would help?
I guess I should occasionally do some of this kind of hill climbing after a long ride to simulate the Fred Whitton and see how I handle this exertion after already putting miles in the legs.
Thanks for all the advice guys...0 -
Personally if I was doing Fred Whitton I'd mostly train by upping my mileage as much as I can i.e. train for the distance you'll be covering on the day. Ride lots and strength will come.
Hardnott, Wrynose and Hornister are going to be about surviving the climb. You're not going to make them easy whatever you do so I would aim to get to them in the best condition you can (hence ride lots), take a compact and a 12-27 with you on the day, ride them steadily and give yourself a few minutes of low intensity riding coming off the climbs to recover.0 -
I'm on the side of it being worth training for - climbing out of the saddle at low cadence (Honister/Newlands/Hardknott/Wrynose will all have you out of the saddle at times) is different to just producing more power for a given period on a flat road - though not totally different - general bike fitness will obviously help. The other thing is to start the climbs slowly - with Hardknott I'm going to try going as slowly as I can lower down the slopes see if it leaves more in the tank for the top section.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
This is an interesting one for me, as I think - for me at least - it's a bit physchological
I don't have any really steep hills near me that are any distance, the ones that are are fairly short and I can normally see where it flattens out. Therefore I know the pain is only going to last for another x seconds or mins.
On holiday recently to Benidorm (good place to have as a base for cycling!) - there is a climb (up to Guadalest) that has a section with some really steep hairpins - I couldn't do it, and I was on a triple (12-25)!
Felt really hacked off about it, but on reflection I think that, whilst I was blowing hard, it was pyschological - I couldn't see where the pain would end...turned and went back to hotel. According to bikehike etc, this section rises c1,000ft in less than a mile.
It is my nemisis and I will break it when back in October!
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/2740708400 -
bengboy wrote:I will try and weigh my bike down a bit, but wondered if carrying a 5-10kg backpack would help?
Let's think it through first - what do you think this will achieve?0 -
Just pace yourself. I haven't done Hardknott, but have done the Mortirolo etc. and it's crucial to pace yourself, even if your cadence is low. You'll be riding for around 20 minutes I suspect, so if you can practice riding at your desired pace for 20 minutes at a low'ish cadence that should prepare you well enough.0
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You could do like I did this morning on the way to work (and before all the hills) and bend your granny ring out of shape. Definitely encourages over-geared training.0
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racingcondor wrote:Personally if I was doing Fred Whitton I'd mostly train by upping my mileage as much as I can i.e. train for the distance you'll be covering on the day. Ride lots and strength will come.
Hardnott, Wrynose and Hornister are going to be about surviving the climb. You're not going to make them easy whatever you do so I would aim to get to them in the best condition you can (hence ride lots), take a compact and a 12-27 with you on the day, ride them steadily and give yourself a few minutes of low intensity riding coming off the climbs to recover.
I try and do the FW every year. Never bother doing any big miles for "training" though, 50 is about as far as I go. Its more about the intensity. But I live in the area, so riding up wrynose and hardknott every weekend is possible for me.
I think climbing out of the saddle is key. Hills you normally ride sat down in the granny gear, ride them stood up in the big ring, all the way to the top (if you can).0 -
Thanks guys. So I'm probably doing the right things.
Imposter, my thought re cycling with weights in a backpack was it would increase the amount of work done and take me longer to climb the local training hill, giving me a longer continuous climb before turning round and starting again.0 -
I've done the Fred the last couple of years and on both rides my arms hurt more than my legs at the top of Hardknott.
I've been wondering if I might open a can of worms and suggest that for this very specific climb some core/back/arm conditioning may be useful!
(sits back and waits for the flames
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bengboy wrote:Imposter, my thought re cycling with weights in a backpack was it would increase the amount of work done and take me longer to climb the local training hill, giving me a longer continuous climb before turning round and starting again.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the weights/backpack/concrete water bottle, etc, I really do. Just concentrate on improving your fitness/endurace in general, rather than slogging up some local climb carring a bag full of rocks. 3-4hr steady rides and 1-2hr tempo rides will probably provide bigger fitness gains, especially if done regularly. If you already have the fitness to stay with a 3/4 race, then you shouldn't be having any real trouble climbing, really.0 -
It is difficult to train for a hill like Hardknott without doing so on hills of a similar gradient.
Grinding a big gear on a 15% hill is going to be tough but it is different...when the gradient gets to over 30% like it does on Hardknott you will likely need a different technique as you have to watch your back wheel doesnt spin when off the saddle and sitting down you have to prevent the opposite problem where your front wheel gets too unweighted.
In any case going up Hardknott and Wrynose is only part of the problem - i find the descent every bit as testing! Last time i did them it was pouring with rain and the road was like a river, it isn't an enjoyable experience whereas the misery and suffering can be sort of enjoyable on the way up
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Omar Little wrote:It is difficult to train for a hill like Hardknott without doing so on hills of a similar gradient.
Grinding a big gear on a 15% hill is going to be tough but it is different...when the gradient gets to over 30% like it does on Hardknott you will likely need a different technique as you have to watch your back wheel doesnt spin when off the saddle and sitting down you have to prevent the opposite problem where your front wheel gets too unweighted.
In any case going up Hardknott and Wrynose is only part of the problem - i find the descent every bit as testing! Last time i did them it was pouring with rain and the road was like a river, it isn't an enjoyable experience whereas the misery and suffering can be sort of enjoyable on the way up
:shock:0 -
Well at basics, are you comfortable riding at low speeds? ie balance, and can you clip in and out comfortably at walking speeds?
you've been up it once so know thy beast which is half the battle any way.0 -
styxd wrote:I try and do the FW every year. Never bother doing any big miles for "training" though, 50 is about as far as I go. Its more about the intensity. But I live in the area, so riding up wrynose and hardknott every weekend is possible for me.
I think climbing out of the saddle is key. Hills you normally ride sat down in the granny gear, ride them stood up in the big ring, all the way to the top (if you can).
I suspect our different outlooks are because of where we live, down here South of London there isn't anything that can mirror these climbs which is why I accept that I will always be rubbish over them and instead focus on pacing myself to do as little as possible while still making it over the top (doesn't help that I'm a rubbish climber).
Sounds like the OP has good base fitness, trains in a pretty focussed way and should be fine though.0 -
I rode the Whitton couple of years ago when it rained pretty much non stop. The final climb out of Wastwater valley was simply an absolute killer, especially the first half. I rode it on a 34/27 and dont feel embarrassed to say i had to walk about 50m of the climb. Plenty of people were at that point. Most of the people i saw ride it either had triples/ or mtb cassettes on, or maybe were just superfit. Anyway, point is, if you end up getting off going up the hardknott after 100 odd miles, you've still done brilliant!
I'd echo the other comments re getting in long rides, certainly a few 100miles, and concentrate on donig long intervals around LT to build your endurance for the 'normal' climbs you've have to do on the ride
As an aside its probably the best UK sportive i've done and one of the few where the locals get out to clap and watch. Enjoy it. 0 -
Imposter wrote:bengboy wrote:Imposter, my thought re cycling with weights in a backpack was it would increase the amount of work done and take me longer to climb the local training hill, giving me a longer continuous climb before turning round and starting again.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the weights/backpack/concrete water bottle, etc, I really do. Just concentrate on improving your fitness/endurace in general, rather than slogging up some local climb carring a bag full of rocks. 3-4hr steady rides and 1-2hr tempo rides will probably provide bigger fitness gains, especially if done regularly. If you already have the fitness to stay with a 3/4 race, then you shouldn't be having any real trouble climbing, really.
A lot of people who race 3/4s will have a lot of trouble with the climbs in the Fred Whitton - speaking from personal experience I was off the bike and walking last time I did it and I was a typical 3rd cat back then - certainly wasn't getting shelled out, the odd minor placing, might struggle a bit against the 2nd cats kind of thing.
I agree that general fitness is a lot of it - but I really do think that climbing a 1 in 3 on typical gearing (compact or something) can be trained for and wouldn't say doing weighted climbs is a bad idea - carrying weights is going to make it harder to overcome gravity and surely that's what these climbs are about. Spinning along at 20mph plus for a few hours is different enough to out of the saddle climbing at 5mph that you would gain from practice.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Harkmeadow wrote:Anyway, point is, if you end up getting off going up the hardknott after 100 odd miles, you've still done brilliant!
Nah, the idea is to ride up the hills!
If you end up getting off, then you've probably been going far to hard for the rest of the ride. Its not a race, just pace yourself. Fair enough, there a plenty of hills, but take it easy on the flat.
You don't want to be one of the ones walking up Hardknott and Wrynose, surely?!
If you can't do it on a 34/27, then I'd suggest you arent particularly fit, or you're mentally weak! 0 -
I've done Hardknott twice, once on the Lakeland Loop with 34-25 and the second time on The Fred with 34-27.
The first time I had some lower back pain so was unable to climb out of the saddle. I had to climb the whole thing seated which was very tough but I managed to do it without stopping. The second time was comparatively easy as I had fitted a 27 cassette and could also climb out of the saddle!
My training was mainly a long and hilly weekend ride for a few months prior. I weighed about 65kg so I think that helped too. I was quite shocked at how many people were walking it - it seemed most people were just giving up without really trying.0 -
This will be my first Fred this year.
I live in the Yorkshire Dales so there are plenty of good climbs to tackle. What really helps is knowing the climb you are tackling a lot of the time it's just a matter of concentrating on the next pedal stroke..then the next.
For me climbing a climb I don't know is really tough.
And the big advice people give me about the Fred is ride it easy otherwise you will be in trouble in the last quarter.0 -
I know the op is being modest as he tortures me on training rides when I can manage to keep up 0
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I'd recommend doing a bit of mtbing, helps you get used to steep hills and good weight distribution between the wheels.
There is nothing clever about steep hills, just general cycling fitness, and a will to suffer and keep grinding on up, no matter how slow.
Oh and make sure your cleats aren't worn, nothing worse than pulling a foot off a pedal on a steep, slow climb.0 -
eh wrote:and a will to suffer and keep grinding on up, no matter how slow.
I'd recommend ignoring this advice.0 -
Er... first off try and make you're training specific to the event. Why would you carry an extra 3Kg or suitcase of cement as part of your training when its not required for the event- that's madness. Are you going to ride with that weight on the day? Er...NO!!..In fact, I reckon thats got to be an invite for back , knee, hip and a maladaptive climbing form :roll: So...
1. Get yourself low gears
2. Get yourself as aerobically fit as possible, Including threshold efforts ( 2 x 20's), sweetspot/ tempo, VO2max training all put together in a nice package will serve you well. IOW;s simply riding fairly hard for anything from 40mins to 120mins would really help (A mate got gold in FW and all his training was done in two hours stints at either Regents or Richmond Park)
3. Practice climbing of course - and if possible after you've already ridden for 3-4 hours
4, Try to Relax when climbing - lots of people still like to wrestle their way up climbs wasting valuable energy
5. Stay fuelled up through out- your glycogen stores will be severely tested
6. Get as light as you can for the event
7. Make sure your descending skills are top notch.
Enjoy0
