How competitive is 4th cat racing?
Comments
-
You will get a mixture of ex pros, some decent riders and some beginners. If a beginner you will be alloowed to ride in a 50+ groups, i rode with a few who did that last year. There is not a huge amount of difference in the race, depends who's in them. You wont be eligible for price money though if you "ride up".Lycraboy_Andy wrote:I thought that Ruth!
Although I have read you shouldn't be fooled by the term Veteran....you probably get ex-pros and Olympians racing and by the very definition of the word veteran, it suggests someone who is experienced and highly skilled at something.
Oh and Lance Armstrong is eligible!
Most of the LVRC riders ride BCF also and many are elite, 1st,2nd and 3rd cat anyway.
Last year at Hillingdon on a wednesday the "masters" races averaged 26 to 28mph each race lol0 -
I did my first circuit race today. A 4th Cat race and my average was 23mph. I finished just outside of the points (I left to much work to do after the last corner). It was windy as hell but totally and utterly enjoyable. Coming from a Triathlon background I didn't think it was overly competitive but it was at the level I expected. There was lots of inexperience riders, like me, who were getting shouted at for cutting across line etc but I managed to keep my line throughout and was pleased with how I raced. I'm very confident I will pick up points as the season kicks on. I'm sure it would have been faster if the wind has not blown down the longest leg of the circuit.0
-
4th Cat races are a lot more 'mouthy' than the higher level races. Its one thing I don't miss about them.0
-
DavidJB wrote:4th Cat races are a lot more 'mouthy' than the higher level races. Its one thing I don't miss about them.
"Mouthy" in what way? Loads of people with 3k bikes thinking they're Wiggo or Cav??
I keep postponing my race debut due to lack of miles, I don't mind coming last but don't want to be spectacularly last! 0 -
Lycraboy_Andy wrote:DavidJB wrote:4th Cat races are a lot more 'mouthy' than the higher level races. Its one thing I don't miss about them.
"Mouthy" in what way? Loads of people with 3k bikes thinking they're Wiggo or Cav??
I keep postponing my race debut due to lack of miles, I don't mind coming last but don't want to be spectacularly last!
Yep.. loads of people on £10k bikes shouting 'oi' and 'woah' constantly... but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
I wouldn't worry about a lack of miles in 4th cat crit races...
I haven't done too much over the winter.. did 3 weeks of heavy miles... then the following week my race prep involved doing a 2x20 interval session 4 days before the race, then the sufferfest 'angels' two days before the race
I was sitting comfortably in the top 10 for most of the race.. up until the crash anyway :roll:0 -
ALIHISGREAT wrote:but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
No-one should ever go to the front and drive the pace, it's a completely stupid thing to do, the only time it has any place in racing is for chasing down a break - in which case you shouldn't do it in 4th cat racing, just bridge up. Or to go so fast that attacks are discouraged, only relevant to stage races really.
Just don't do it, and absolutely don't complain if others don't - it's a really dumb thing to do!Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
jibberjim wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
No-one should ever go to the front and drive the pace, it's a completely stupid thing to do, the only time it has any place in racing is for chasing down a break - in which case you shouldn't do it in 4th cat racing, just bridge up. Or to go so fast that attacks are discouraged, only relevant to stage races really.
Just don't do it, and absolutely don't complain if others don't - it's a really dumb thing to do!
I'd disagree with you & know the course that ALIHISGREAT raced on. Personally it think its much safer to have a smaller group that are capable & confident to ride together that one big bunch sat together with half just drafting & often then not having the skill to corner and 'trying' to come down the inside/outside and running out of talent and crashing into people. The time and place is to make a break not just chase it down & if your strong enough and confident enough to do so then why not?Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
jibberjim wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
No-one should ever go to the front and drive the pace, it's a completely stupid thing to do, the only time it has any place in racing is for chasing down a break - in which case you shouldn't do it in 4th cat racing, just bridge up. Or to go so fast that attacks are discouraged, only relevant to stage races really.
Just don't do it, and absolutely don't complain if others don't - it's a really dumb thing to do!
Or in a 2/3/4 and you're trying to shell out all the 4th cats in the first 10 miles :twisted:0 -
jibberjim wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
No-one should ever go to the front and drive the pace, it's a completely stupid thing to do, the only time it has any place in racing is for chasing down a break - in which case you shouldn't do it in 4th cat racing, just bridge up. Or to go so fast that attacks are discouraged, only relevant to stage races really.
Just don't do it, and absolutely don't complain if others don't - it's a really dumb thing to do!
riding on the front has its place in 4th cat racing.. otherwise you are at the mercy of some nutter who thinks he's Mark Cavendish and wants to move up from the back of the bunch when the 3 lap board comes out.
and you can't complain about dangerous bunching up if you're not strong enough to go and prevent it... its just a fact of 4th cat racing.0 -
ALIHISGREAT wrote:jibberjim wrote:ALIHISGREAT wrote:but unwilling to go to the front and drive the pace to avoid the dangerous bunching up.
No-one should ever go to the front and drive the pace, it's a completely stupid thing to do, the only time it has any place in racing is for chasing down a break - in which case you shouldn't do it in 4th cat racing, just bridge up. Or to go so fast that attacks are discouraged, only relevant to stage races really.
Just don't do it, and absolutely don't complain if others don't - it's a really dumb thing to do!
riding on the front has its place in 4th cat racing.. otherwise you are at the mercy of some nutter who thinks he's Mark Cavendish and wants to move up from the back of the bunch when the 3 lap board comes out.
and you can't complain about dangerous bunching up if you're not strong enough to go and prevent it... its just a fact of 4th cat racing.
How do you know you have only done 1 race haven't you? I've done a few crits and I don't think the place to be is 'on the front', what is the point? Knackering yourself but pulling everyone else along only for them to sprint round you at the end as you're knackered!
I only ever showed my face near the front in 3rd/4th crits when it was a few laps to go, nothing wrong with it, if someone is happy to sit on the front, more fool them.
Fact is you can be a strong rider, but you will still get beaten by a bunch of 4th cats if they have been sitting in and you've been sitting on the front, thinking you're Tony Martin. I watched my mate tow the field round at 25 mph at Hog Hill for two laps, putting out more power than most 4th cats will ever be able to, he got swamped at the finish and finished 300th Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
okgo wrote:
How do you know you have only done 1 race haven't you? I've done a few crits and I don't think the place to be is 'on the front', what is the point? Knackering yourself but pulling everyone else along only for them to sprint round you at the end as you're knackered!
Think the point is valid however many or few races completed.
If your strong enough to get a break together or push the pace to shell out weaker riders how is that any different from not being strong enough but have tactical knowledge and staying in a group of faster riders for a sprint.
Plus I do agree that in a Cat 4 race if you leave everyone together you will get a mix of abilities and experience and are more likely* to get a rider who takes a chance and causes a crash which I think if I'm reading right is exactly what happened to ALIHISGREAT.
*when I say more likely i just mean from a numbers game as have seen plenty of smaller groups with a rider with a lack of skill just run out of talent and barrel into someone else.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
I don't think it makes much difference, unless you are strong enough to ride away, which if the bunch doesn't want you to, you won't, you'll end up stringing it out then almost doesn't matter how much you drive it, you will not shell that many people, you will be taking the wind and everyone else will just get a tow and you will knacker yourself.
The example I used is exactly that. He hit the front and did 1.5 laps at very high power, but everyone just sat on him and sprinted round at the end. I think you forget how big an advantage there is to be gained by sitting 2nd wheel, let alone sitting 10 wheels back. Shelling people out is not that easy (apart from the really weak ones who wouldn't figure at the end regardless)
The crashing happens regardless, mainly because 4th cat crits are so short and held on such un-selective circuits that everyone is full of beans for the last couple of laps! The number in the bunch at your typical Hillingdon after and hour compared to Hog Hill is quite different for example.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
Always worth thinning out the pack by driving on the front for a bit. Obviously not so hard as to put yourself in the red, and ideally not the last few laps. As for riding on the front being a mug's game, somebody has to do it - if everyone wants to hide a few wheels back you just end up with a ridiculously slow, crowded field and much more risk of crashes. Of course the ideal is to sit towards the back of that slow field and then shoot off the front and ride off into the sunset. Doesn't usually work though!0
-
sorry I didn't make myself clear - I wasn't exactly suggesting he just sits on the front for the whole race..
I'm saying that the guys sitting in the middle of the bunch mouthing off can't complain since they're not willing to contribute to the solution to the problem (i.e. helping to drive the pace).
as far as i'm concerned its just fact that the 4th cat bunch is a dangerous place and sitting in the middle shouting 'oi' and 'woah' isn't going to make a difference because 90% of the time you're shouting at someone in front of you who is oblivious to you and any dangerous movements they may have made.
and yeah, as pointed out is was only my first race - but I think my observations are still valid.0 -
I think a lot depends on the course too. If it's flat then you're gonna have a hard time thinning out the pack on your own unless there's a couple of you prepared to push and work together. Take hillingdon as an example, it's so easy to just sit in the pack and do nothing even if you're not 'that' fit, but you want to stay close to the front.
On a hilly course then I think thats where pushing the pace will pay dividends. A short but steep climb at a high pace will push the unexperienced beyond their abilty.
I generally agree with jibberjim though.0 -
okgo wrote:I think you forget how big an advantage there is to be gained by sitting 2nd wheel, let alone sitting 10 wheels back.
The crashing happens regardless, mainly because 4th cat crits are so short and held on such un-selective circuits that everyone is full of beans for the last couple of laps! The number in the bunch at your typical Hillingdon after and hour compared to Hog Hill is quite different for example.
No I don't forget how much of an advantage which is or why people do it.
As for crashes yes they do & can happen at any time but I don't think thats anything to do with the shortness of the race or the circuit they are racing on as the 3/4 and 1/2 races are commonly run on same course and over an hour+laps reflecting the fitness/strength of the high cat racers.
Most of the crashes I have seen & had to deal with when marshalling are caused by (a) a rider simply not being as good as they think they are and trying a move that will not work (b) large bunches of mixed abilities with numbers of riders trying or pushing their way to front (c) technical failure of a part causing a rider to slow much faster than expected & the chaos caused by people trying to get around.
Sure there are other causes but a & b seem to be pretty common in the lower Cats & if you can and are able to thin out a group your are going to thin out the possibility of (a) occurring where people are trying to get places into corners which turn out to be a poor choice or (b) as less numbers means less need to push through a big pack.
Each to their own though on their own strategy makes no difference to me apart from when its my turn to pick up the pieces after the race if I'm marshalling or if its my friend who was crashed into and taken out. Which thankfully neither have happened this year so far.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
BigMat wrote:Always worth thinning out the pack by driving on the front for a bit. Obviously not so hard as to put yourself in the red, and ideally not the last few laps. As for riding on the front being a mug's game, somebody has to do it - if everyone wants to hide a few wheels back you just end up with a ridiculously slow, crowded field and much more risk of crashes. Of course the ideal is to sit towards the back of that slow field and then shoot off the front and ride off into the sunset. Doesn't usually work though!
If the bunch is ridiculously slow, then ATTACK for god's sake. That will speed up the bunch and thin it too, especially if done repeatedly.
You don't need to sit on the front towing everyone around to keep the pace high, just go off the front HARD and see what happens. If you're lucky you get a few with you and maybe a break, if you're unlucky you go so hard you shell yourself once the bunch catches you again. In the most likely case, you ride hard for a lap til they catch you, you recover then go again. Or maybe someone else goes. Riding around at 20mph is boring, why pay £15 for the privilege?0 -
maryka wrote:BigMat wrote:Always worth thinning out the pack by driving on the front for a bit. Obviously not so hard as to put yourself in the red, and ideally not the last few laps. As for riding on the front being a mug's game, somebody has to do it - if everyone wants to hide a few wheels back you just end up with a ridiculously slow, crowded field and much more risk of crashes. Of course the ideal is to sit towards the back of that slow field and then shoot off the front and ride off into the sunset. Doesn't usually work though!
If the bunch is ridiculously slow, then ATTACK for god's sake. That will speed up the bunch and thin it too, especially if done repeatedly.
You don't need to sit on the front towing everyone around to keep the pace high, just go off the front HARD and see what happens. If you're lucky you get a few with you and maybe a break, if you're unlucky you go so hard you shell yourself once the bunch catches you again. In the most likely case, you ride hard for a lap til they catch you, you recover then go again. Or maybe someone else goes. Riding around at 20mph is boring, why pay £15 for the privilege?
That's kind of what I was saying. You do get races though where if you attack people will chase you down, but otherwise nobody is prepared to ride - I'm happy to do the occasional hard lap on the front to test my legs and see who is willing / able to follow - not a full on attack, just a little test. It does help thin things out a bit. If I have the legs to properly attack I will, but that isn't always the case and I have had a few unfortunate experiences where I've gone off the front, nobody has followed and I've just dangled off the front on my own for a couple of laps killing myself for nothing! Would be great if people were generally more willing to bridge across and try to get away in a break.0 -
If you ride on the front, you're the only person working.
If you ride off the front, you and at least someone else is working, even if it's only one, you're still doing a lot more to tire people out than just riding on the front.
Also, the only thing that can tire people who aren't in the wind out is changes of pace, so you want it to slow when the attacks aren't happening, because when accellerating the draft benefit is not as pronounced.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
Lycraboy_Andy wrote:DavidJB wrote:4th Cat races are a lot more 'mouthy' than the higher level races. Its one thing I don't miss about them.
"Mouthy" in what way? Loads of people with 3k bikes thinking they're Wiggo or Cav??
I keep postponing my race debut due to lack of miles, I don't mind coming last but don't want to be spectacularly last!
Mouthy as in if you slightly move into them they shout 'hold ya line' 'for f**ks sake' etc. Its 95% always the fat guys shouting and then sitting on the front showing all who care how big and strong they are before finishing 24th. They are so nervous they think if you move they are going to die.0 -
DavidJB wrote:Mouthy as in if you slightly move into them they shout 'hold ya line' 'for f**ks sake' etc. Its 95% always the fat guys shouting and then sitting on the front showing all who care how big and strong they are before finishing 24th. They are so nervous they think if you move they are going to die.
What a load of tosh.
I'd probably be one of the ones you describe as 'mouthy' in 4th cat races at Hillingdon, but if you saw some of the riding there you'd possibly understand. There always seem to be one or two riders who are unable to consider the implications of their erratic riding. Nothing to do with them being fat, thin, strong, weak, old or young. Just lacking in basic riding skills. Incompetent and dangerous.
It happened again at Hillingdon on Saturday. Last lap, someone finally decides to launch off the front, all hell breaks loose and the chase is on. One bloke on the left of the track decides that the guy over on the right would be a good wheel to follow so just cuts through the bunch. A few wobbles, one guy has a bit of cyclo cross, words are exchanged and for half the field their race is done as a gap is created.0 -
proto wrote:DavidJB wrote:Mouthy as in if you slightly move into them they shout 'hold ya line' 'for f**ks sake' etc. Its 95% always the fat guys shouting and then sitting on the front showing all who care how big and strong they are before finishing 24th. They are so nervous they think if you move they are going to die.
What a load of tosh.
I'd probably be one of the ones you describe as 'mouthy' in 4th cat races at Hillingdon, but if you saw some of the riding there you'd possibly understand. There always seem to be one or two riders who are unable to consider the implications of their erratic riding. Nothing to do with them being fat, thin, strong, weak, old or young. Just lacking in basic riding skills. Incompetent and dangerous.
It happened again at Hillingdon on Saturday. Last lap, someone finally decides to launch off the front, all hell breaks loose and the chase is on. One bloke on the left of the track decides that the guy over on the right would be a good wheel to follow so just cuts through the bunch. A few wobbles, one guy has a bit of cyclo cross, words are exchanged and for half the field their race is done as a gap is created.
I'm not saying some riders in 4th cat races don't do stupid things. I do understand as I raced 3/4's all last season and race 2/3/4's this season, I've had someone take me out by riding into the side of my trying to get through a gap that wasn't there so I'm well aware of the bad cyclists in 4th cat races. The shouting far outweighs the bad riding is most cases. Its far more constructive to ride along side someone and tell them they're riding dangerously then calling them a c**t.
Its not tosh at all. In my experience its the big blokes that mouth off the most. What these people don't seem to understand is it's a bike race..there's going to be some argy bargy and dodgy riding people are on the limit. Its not a Sunday club run.0 -
If you're talking about a couple of fellows who rode for Neon Digital last year at Hillingdon then I'd agree with you, but other than them, my experience differs from yours.
I think most accept that a brake lever in your bum and handlebars touching is normal close racing, but it's stupidity that causes the crashes.0 -
You get 'shouty' people in all cats of racing, although less so in 1s & 2s to be fair. Crashes are not unique to 4th cat racing - even the pros do it with alarming regularity.0
-
Imposter wrote:You get 'shouty' people in all cats of racing, although less so in 1s & 2s to be fair. Crashes are not unique to 4th cat racing - even the pros do it with alarming regularity.
The pro-peloton is a completely different kind of racing to most 4th cat racing since its on open roads that the riders are not familiar with...
.. 4th cat racing on the other hand is generally on small circuits with no corners where you know exactly what to expect from the course.
but I do have to admit it does make you feel better about crashing when you see Geriant Thomas do it at every opportunity in the classics :roll:
Maybe I actually feel more like a pro having crashed in my first race, than if I had stayed upright and finished out of the points?! 0 -
ALIHISGREAT wrote:Imposter wrote:You get 'shouty' people in all cats of racing, although less so in 1s & 2s to be fair. Crashes are not unique to 4th cat racing - even the pros do it with alarming regularity.
The pro-peloton is a completely different kind of racing to most 4th cat racing since its on open roads that the riders are not familiar with...
.. 4th cat racing on the other hand is generally on small circuits with no corners where you know exactly what to expect from the course.
but I do have to admit it does make you feel better about crashing when you see Geriant Thomas do it at every opportunity in the classics :roll:
Maybe I actually feel more like a pro having crashed in my first race, than if I had stayed upright and finished out of the points?!
I guess crashing is all part of the learning process. I tend to keep my mouth shut when racing, but will shout a "watch out" or "steady" if somebody is about to move into me. I appreciate making contact is part of racing in a bunch, but its still preferable to avoid it if possible! Re the tactical stuff above, I'm here to learn - always good to hear from people with experience. I know that having put in my first real full season of racing last year I have improved massively and I would say only a small proprtion of that is in the legs.0 -
DavidJB wrote:Lycraboy_Andy wrote:DavidJB wrote:4th Cat races are a lot more 'mouthy' than the higher level races. Its one thing I don't miss about them.
"Mouthy" in what way? Loads of people with 3k bikes thinking they're Wiggo or Cav??
I keep postponing my race debut due to lack of miles, I don't mind coming last but don't want to be spectacularly last!
Mouthy as in if you slightly move into them they shout 'hold ya line' 'for f**ks sake' etc. Its 95% always the fat guys shouting and then sitting on the front showing all who care how big and strong they are before finishing 24th. They are so nervous they think if you move they are going to die.
haha, this is funny. and true.0 -
It neither funny or true really. If you do something very stupid then expect to get told about it. I tried squeezing through a gap that probably wasn't quite there and got a mouthful from an elite rider for doing so. It's not just the fat people that finish 24th (David you know everyone can see your results don't you?) it's anyone that doesn't want to be brought down by silly riding.
The bottle grab is another thing the usually gets people shouted at if they don't actually get the bottle and it falls on the ground amongst everyone's wheels.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
Just get fit enough to ride off the front so that you're responsible for your own safety and dont have to listen to the 'moronolouge' from the jesters.
Easier said than done, but with the correct training and support its easy enough.
I dont think 4th cat ONLY racing actually teaches anyone anything about 'racing' merely how to maintain speed in a fast and freeflowing group - no problem with that but more often than not you'd be better off putting yourself out of your comfort zone and racing a handicap race or a 2/3/4 and learning from more experienced and adpet riders.
When i think about how i had to move out of 4th cat to ride a E123 stage race with my then team in the next season a lot of my points came from E1234 crits - maybe 9th or 10th but you know what by knocking around in the same races as Elites and Prem Calendar riders it brings you on a bit and raises you're awareness of whats expected.
Its changed so much in 6 years it really has - sometimes i think its got worse, but increased participation should never be knocked - other times i think its great - until i forget to put an entry in and cannot EOL like we used to be able to !0
