Improving pedalling efficiency

Alex_Simmons/RST

bernithebiker wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.

No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.

I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.

Do the experts look for a rough and inefficient pedaling stroke then?

No, but you are confusing a pedal stroke requiring the rider to apply more force on the upstroke as meaning it's more efficient (or smooth), when in fact the studies on this show just the opposite (and isn't hard to see why considering it requires the use of muscles that are inherently less efficient than the ones we use to push down with).

Trev The Rev

bernithebiker wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.

This flies in the face of everything I've ever learnt about pedaling over the last 20 years, so either you're onto something revolutionary or I've been reading the wrong stuff......

I don't think it is revolutionary. I tried out all that ankling scraping stuff back in 1969 when I first used toe clips and straps and it didn't make me any faster.

The most powerful riders don't apply an even force through the whole stroke. In fact trying to do this will reduce power.

Don't worry about pedalling technique or style concentrate on improving power by pushing harder and faster. Things fall into place. Even torque throughout the pedal stroke is not a natural way to pedal, consequently it is not as effective.


http://velodynamics2.webs.com/OSFconfusion.pdf

With respect to pedaling ‘smoothness,’ increased power production does not result from applying force evenly
throughout the pedal stroke, but primarily by applying more of it on the downstroke (0-180°) portion – or to put it
simply, more powerful riders don’t pedal smoother, they just stomp harder:

Noone is suggesting to try for 'even torque throughout the pedal stroke', which is clearly impossible.

Your downstroke will always be stronger than your upstroke.

And of course, the harder you push on the downstroke, the faster you will go.

BUT, what I am saying is that you can improve your pedaling smoothness if you think about your technique a little bit - even you seem to have agreed that it is a good thing to unweight your upward foot, so if you don't do this already, it's a good thing to train for.

Sometimes I find myself tiring on a strenuous section and realize I'm not 'pedaling circles' - when I then do so I find it makes things a bit easier and gives some muscle relief.

I keep meaning to make a big sticker that says 'Pedal Circles' for my stem so I can always see it, because I find I forget and stomp too much.

Have you considered that when you start pedalling in circles and get some relief it is because you have in fact dropped your power and the relief is due to that?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Herbsman wrote:

Have you reached the absolute limit of your performance, such that you absolutely cannot increase it by increasing the intensity, duration or frequency of your training? If not, why focus on something that may or may not work, and even if it does work, would increase your performance by such a negligible amount in comparison?

+1

I will say that there's some reasonable indication that single leg work for a two legged rider may be a consideration to further explore its merits (but this has not yet been tested AFAIK) when:
- it's done with a counterweighted pedal on the non drive side (i.e. the non drive pedal has a roughly 10-11kg mass rotating on it)
AND
- there is a restriction on total VO2 a rider can process that will limit their two legged power output, such as perhaps when at sufficiently high altitude

that is, in a situation where the single leg power may be more than half the two legged power due to hitting VO2 max limits when two legged but not when one-legged.

But I emphasise this is counterweighted pedalling and is something that may possibly provide a metabolic stimulus in special circumstances but not for the reasons (i.e. pedalling "technique") that many might at first think.

Alex_Simmons/RST

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Well known experts. I don't think anyone mentioned stomping.

Tests have shown that pushing down hard on the pedals more often produces more power. Pushing over the top, pulling up and scraping back is not the way to go. It is harder work and awkward and causes more fatigue.

Children naturally push down on the pedals, if you are pushing hard there really isn't time to apply force scraping back and pulling up and pushing over the top of the stroke. Just push down harder and faster and concentrate on producing the desired power. Amputees can generate really good power, all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.

Tests on elite cyclists show that the most talented most powerful cyclists are the ones who apply the most force most often on the downstroke. The rest makes no difference as long as you don't apply negative force on the pedal coming up. Pedalling becomes smoother the faster the cadence quite naturally with training. No need to do specific drills.

Way to over simplify current research and yes while it is obvious that the bulk of the cyclist's power is developed during the down stroke. Getting the foot back into the best position to repeat the next push requires training and the development of an efficient stroke.

You even support the need for an efficient pedal stroke by suggesting that cyclists avoid applying a negative force on the pedal coming up. Not just allowing the back pedal to lift the foot, but introducing some lift.

You see, this is where people forget about a little basic physics - when pedalling there is a considerable mass rotating about the crank with some rotational inertia already, plus the leg when at top of the stroke has some gravitational potential energy it transfers to the other leg as it drops down towards the bottom of the stroke and the other leg comes back up (hence why when doing single leg drills, it bear little resemblance to actual pedalling if it's not counterweighted).

Suggest starting by reading through a summary of data on pedalling studies by Jim Martin (a primary expert in this field), then perhaps drill down from there into each of the referenced papers:
http://www.plan2peak.com/files/32_artic ... hnique.pdf

Alex_Simmons/RST

bernithebiker wrote:

I keep meaning to make a big sticker that says 'Pedal Circles' for my stem so I can always see it, because I find I forget and stomp too much.

And what happens to your power output?

In these debates, there is also a disconnect between what people think they are doing when pedalling, and what they are actually doing.

Now I'm just waiting for the "fixed gear riding makes you smoother/better pedaller" suggestion to come along and the irony of that to dawn on people when they think about it.

Smoothness is not about the evenness of pedalling torque, it's about the neuromuscular coordination in the application of the torque where it matters (i.e. the downstroke) and not where it doesn't.

What matters is whether power output improves over durations of interest, not how even your pedalling torque is.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Rob13 wrote:

Thanks to the wee-wee takers on this thread, your input is much appreciated. I was aware that there are drills for this such as the one foot pedalling stuff on a turbo but wanted a bit more advice on how it should be done (big gear/little gear/fast cadence/slow cadence) and how to actually achieve a better technique. To add to that, no I'm not at the very peak of my abilities to be looking to find that last little drop of pace, but surely having a good technique in everything means that you set yourself a base for your activity knowing that you have the right tools in the bag for the job. Surely pedalling technique matters as much as keeping a good position on the bike.

Then I suggest a focus on two legged pedalling drills, as single legged non-counterweighted pedalling does not replicate what we do when riding two legged. It's a totally different neuromuscular action.

As I said - it's great for making you better at single legged pedalling.

Aside from getting more miles in your legs over many years, the best pedalling drills are those that take you a little out of your comfort zone, examples of which might be:
- periods of riding at same power but at a higher/lower gear than you might ordinarily choose
- riding at a higher power than presently capable of (irrespective of gear choice) for shorter durations obviously
- those that replicate your specific events demands (e.g. hillclimbs, sprinting, standing starts, riding in TT position - whatever it happens to reflect what element of cycling you are seeking to improve)

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

my daughter is on a BC talent program and they ve given her one legged drills to work on.

Time for Alex to give his opinion.

I don't have one since I have no information on the rider, their training or what the coach is seeking to achieve.

Sometimes we give athletes drills to do for reasons other than a physiological or neuromuscular improvement ones.

ncr

Trev The Rev wrote:

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Powerful efficient pedalling is all about the downstroke.

What makes powerful downstroke pedalling efficient ?

Trev The Rev

ncr wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Powerful efficient pedalling is all about the downstroke.

What makes powerful downstroke pedalling efficient ?

Try generating power without force on the downstroke.

bernithebiker

Quick question;

If it's all about the downstroke, and the upstroke doesn't count for sh!t, then why aren't we all riding flat BMX pedals?

Trev The Rev

bernithebiker wrote:

Quick question;

If it's all about the downstroke, and the upstroke doesn't count for sh!t, then why aren't we all riding flat BMX pedals?

For the past few years I have been using flat quill pedals without toe clips or straps. Previously I used Look pedals for about 12 years and clips & straps before that. I have found no difference in power. But the flat pedals are cheaper and with the shoes I use pedal & shoe is lighter than cycling shoe, cleats and clipless pedal.

For a standing start, or for a very short full out burst or a very short acceleration the ability to pull up can enable you to generate more power but only for a very short time.

People like to feel assured their feet will stay in the correct place if they hit bumps etc, (over the past few years my feet have never slipped, BMX riders seem to get on fine as well, as do children and millions of commuters), but people prefer to have their feet clipped into position when they are racing on the track, road races etc.

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

bernithebiker

Trev The Rev wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Quick question;

If it's all about the downstroke, and the upstroke doesn't count for sh!t, then why aren't we all riding flat BMX pedals?

For a standing start, or for a very short full out burst or a very short acceleration the ability to pull up can enable you to generate more power but only for a very short time.

Kind of contradicts what you said before. So you CAN pull up. Short time for you, longer time for me maybe?

Trev The Rev wrote:

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

So the whole things a scam, and the pro peloton should really all be on flat pedals? I think we should call Wiggo immediately.

Herbsman

Fool.

danowat

bernithebiker wrote:

So the whole things a scam, and the pro peloton should really all be on flat pedals? I think we should call Wiggo immediately.

Pffftttt

Haven't you learnt anything?, it's all a scam, carbon frames, cycle helmets, energy products, recovery products, clipless pedals, power meters, heart rate monitors etc etc, they are all out to get us.....

Trev The Rev

bernithebiker wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Quick question;

If it's all about the downstroke, and the upstroke doesn't count for sh!t, then why aren't we all riding flat BMX pedals?

For a standing start, or for a very short full out burst or a very short acceleration the ability to pull up can enable you to generate more power but only for a very short time.

Kind of contradicts what you said before. So you CAN pull up. Short time for you, longer time for me maybe?

Trev The Rev wrote:

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

So the whole things a scam, and the pro peloton should really all be on flat pedals? I think we should call Wiggo immediately.

Read the whole thread, particularly what Alex has said and posted. You might learn something.

ncr

Trev The Rev wrote:

ncr wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Powerful efficient pedalling is all about the downstroke.

What makes powerful downstroke pedalling efficient ?

Try generating power without force on the downstroke.

There may be different meanings for pedalling efficiency, what I have in mind is the torque return from the power you are applying.

Trev The Rev

ncr wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

ncr wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

marz wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Powerful efficient pedalling is all about the downstroke.

What makes powerful downstroke pedalling efficient ?

Try generating power without force on the downstroke.

There may be different meanings for pedalling efficiency, what I have in mind is the torque return from the power you are applying.

I think you should ask Alex.

ric/rstsport

OMG noel and trev in one thread. this is superb. happy new year noel

barry_kellett99

Do BMX racers really use Flat pedals? Pretty sure every rider I've seen racing were using SPD systems

Trev The Rev

danowat wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

So the whole things a scam, and the pro peloton should really all be on flat pedals? I think we should call Wiggo immediately.

Pffftttt

Haven't you learnt anything?, it's all a scam, carbon frames, cycle helmets, energy products, recovery products, clipless pedals, power meters, heart rate monitors etc etc, they are all out to get us.....

Have you got your Quarq back yet? You missed out gears.

Herbsman

barry_kellett99 wrote:

Do BMX racers really use Flat pedals? Pretty sure every rider I've seen racing were using SPD systems

I think SPDs came into popularity in BMX more than ten years ago. They were banned in certain categories I think, maybe youth races. And I remember reading in Ride UK and BMX Plus! that there was a lot of opposition to them being used, on safety grounds.

bernithebiker

Trev The Rev wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

Quick question;

If it's all about the downstroke, and the upstroke doesn't count for sh!t, then why aren't we all riding flat BMX pedals?

For a standing start, or for a very short full out burst or a very short acceleration the ability to pull up can enable you to generate more power but only for a very short time.

Kind of contradicts what you said before. So you CAN pull up. Short time for you, longer time for me maybe?

Trev The Rev wrote:

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

So the whole things a scam, and the pro peloton should really all be on flat pedals? I think we should call Wiggo immediately.

Read the whole thread, particularly what Alex has said and posted. You might learn something.

That is a cop out. I did read the thread. Saying that all the millions of cyclists out there on clipless pedals are all doing the wrong thing is patently ridiculous.

Trev The Rev

I'm only joking about clipless pedals.

The subject of pulling up pushing over the top and scraping back and smooth pedalling, pedalling in circles is an interesting one.

My view is you should not waste time worrying about it all because the science points to it all being about the downstroke, and many experts say you should concentrate on power, because the scraping back pulling up etc is not efficient.

We all agree that the ability to pull up with clipless pedals is a benefit, the clipless pedal ensures you keep your foot in the correct position and you have the security of knowing your foot will not slip off.

I do use flat pedals for commuting, but when I raced on the track or road I used clipps & straps or Look Keo. If I ever do race again I would still use clipless pedals, although for a flat time trial I doubt they would improve performance over flat pedals for all the reasons I gave before.

I am not saying it is wrong to use clipless pedals but I am saying that some of the things people assume about them particularly with regard to pedalling technique are not correct.

It is an interesting discussion because there is disagreement among experts. Obree is keen on pedalling technique and many coaches are but the power meter scientists say you should concentrate on power because it is all about producing power efficiently etc etc.

I know Alex can explain all this, he can explain using scientific terminology.

bernithebiker

Trev The Rev wrote:

I'm only joking about clipless pedals.

The subject of pulling up pushing over the top and scraping back and smooth pedalling, pedalling in circles is an interesting one.

My view is you should not waste time worrying about it all because the science points to it all being about the downstroke, and many experts say you should concentrate on power, because the scraping back pulling up etc is not efficient.

We all agree that the ability to pull up with clipless pedals is a benefit, the clipless pedal ensures you keep your foot in the correct position and you have the security of knowing your foot will not slip off.

I do use flat pedals for commuting, but when I raced on the track or road I used clipps & straps or Look Keo. If I ever do race again I would still use clipless pedals, although for a flat time trial I doubt they would improve performance over flat pedals for all the reasons I gave before.

I am not saying it is wrong to use clipless pedals but I am saying that some of the things people assume about them particularly with regard to pedalling technique are not correct.

It is an interesting discussion because there is disagreement among experts. Obree is keen on pedalling technique and many coaches are but the power meter scientists say you should concentrate on power because it is all about producing power efficiently etc etc.

I know Alex can explain all this, he can explain using scientific terminology.

This was only joking? ;

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

I didn't get the joke.

I think the message you are trying to get across is vague and deeply confused. Of course you concentrate on power - the more the merrier. But pedaling efficiently is an important component of any cyclists performance, and I would definitely say that you cannot pedal as efficiently with flat pedals.

Whenever I go for a spin on a bike with flat pedals it feels like something very important is missing - I know for sure I could not pedal as well as normal on flat pedals.

No 2 riders are the same. I think you need to consider that just because you draw no (or v.little) benefit from clipless pedals, it doesn't mean that others don't.

I like them, I need them, I ride better with them, therefore they are helping me complete a 360' pedal stroke more efficiently.

Herbsman

Clipless pedals exist for foot security, not pedaling efficiency.

bernithebiker

Herbsman wrote:

Clipless pedals exist for foot security, not pedaling efficiency.

From Joe Friel, (clueless, doesn't know a thing about cycling....)

Athletes who are efficient at pedaling a bike are especially good at the top, bottom and recovery side of the pedal stroke. At the top they transition efficiently from pedaling up and back to pedaling forward and down. At the bottom of the stroke they do just the opposite without wasting energy. Riders who are not very good at pedaling make these transitions too late. This wastes a tiny amount of energy in every stroke. In one-hour you may make 5,000 to 6,000 pedal strokes. That is potentially a lot of wasted energy.

Efficient cyclists slightly unweight the pedal on the recovery side, or backside, of the stroke. Inefficient riders let the foot and leg on the recovery side rest on the pedal causing the other leg, the one driving the pedal down, to work harder to lift the dead weight of the recovery leg. Again, this wastes a lot of energy.

Note that I’ve not said anything about the front side of the pedal stroke. This side is easy to get right. Pushing the pedal down does not require much in the way of skill. The problem is that inefficient riders focus only on the down stroke. They “stomp” the pedals typically with a lot of excess, side-to-side, upper body movement. This also wastes a tremendous amount of energy.

bernithebiker

From coachthomas.com;

Un-weight the pedal that's on the up side, or back side, of the circle. If the leg is just resting on the pedal it creates more resistance for the leg that is pushing down on the other pedal to overcome. It's not necessary to pull up on the pedal with a great deal of force (leave your foot in your shoe), but be sure that you "un-weight" the pedal. Try "lifting" your knee like you're stepping up onto a box. Of course, you won't be able to accomplish this if you're not using a clip-less pedal system (or toe clips). Duct taping your feet to the pedals will work if you're on a budget (this is a joke, of course).

Trev The Rev

bernithebiker wrote:

This was only joking? ;

The manufacturers of clipless pedals and many coaches have managed to convince people that you need them to pedal powerfully and efficiently. Pedal & shoe systems are more expensive than simple flat pedals so manufacturers, retailers and the cycling press tend to push the myth that they enable you to pedal more efficiently or smoothly or more powerfully.

I didn't get the joke.

I think the message you are trying to get across is vague and deeply confused. Of course you concentrate on power - the more the merrier. But pedaling efficiently is an important component of any cyclists performance, and I would definitely say that you cannot pedal as efficiently with flat pedals.

Whenever I go for a spin on a bike with flat pedals it feels like something very important is missing - I know for sure I could not pedal as well as normal on flat pedals.

No 2 riders are the same. I think you need to consider that just because you draw no (or v.little) benefit from clipless pedals, it doesn't mean that others don't.

I like them, I need them, I ride better with them, therefore they are helping me complete a 360' pedal stroke more efficiently.

Yes I was having my usual joke about modern bike equipment.

I think you are confusing what I am saying about pedalling technique with the joke about clipless pedals.

I hope the following is clear.

Elite cyclists simply push down harder, more frequently, than the rest of us. Focus on that.

People confuse "smooth" pedalling with "circular" or "trying to apply force all the way round the stroke" pedalling. They are not the same thing.

Powerful riding is all about the downstroke. Smooth pedalling is about a powerful downstroke with good muscular coordination turning on/off at the right times and done frequently (as well as having a well fitted bicycle to start with).

Clipless pedals simply enables us to maintain the foot in the same place providing security for when we push hard and ensures the muscles adapt specifically to that demand.
The assertion that elites magically eliminate the "dead spots" is a fallacy. Indeed evidence on pedaling forces shows the contrary to be the case.

The other differentiator is that elite cyclists tend to unweight the pedal on the upstroke more than sub-elites--in other words, elite cyclist aren't so much pulling up on their pedals as they are getting their body weight out of the way during the upstroke. Actually it's the other way round. The most powerful TT riders exert lower (positive) torque on the upstroke than sub-elites. Indeed on average the more powerful exert some negative torque on the upstroke.
The negative torque displayed by elites simply emphasises that "pulling up" is not important (nor is the top and bottom of the stroke). It's the down stroke using the most powerful muscles in the body that matters. Smooth pedaling is not about pedaling "circles". It's about the well coordinated firing on/off of the respective leg's down stroke.

Trev The Rev

bernithebiker wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

Clipless pedals exist for foot security, not pedaling efficiency.

From Joe Friel, (clueless, doesn't know a thing about cycling....)

I agree with a lot of what Joe Friel says, particularly about training with power and heart rate. But I don't agree with him on this.

bernithebiker

Trev The Rev wrote:

Elite cyclists simply push down harder, more frequently, than the rest of us. Focus on that.

This is simply stating the obvious. If I could apply more force at a higher cadence I would, wouldn't I?

Trev The Rev wrote:

People confuse "smooth" pedalling with "circular" or "trying to apply force all the way round the stroke" pedalling. They are not the same thing.

Good cyclists can be seen to have a 'smooth' pedal motion. They are not necessarily applying an upward force, but their technique is good, and they are not stomping like many beginners do.

Trev The Rev wrote:

Powerful riding is all about the downstroke. Smooth pedalling is about a powerful downstroke with good muscular coordination turning on/off at the right times and done frequently (as well as having a well fitted bicycle to start with).

Again, stating the obvious. Clearly the vast majority of your power comes at the downstroke. But even better is a powerful downstroke and a smooth technique.

On long rides, when I need to be efficient, and my cadence is a bit lower than usual, I will continue to pedal circles, happy in the knowledge that it's saving me energy, and regretfully, I will be ignoring your advice.