Improving pedalling efficiency
rob13
Posts: 430
Tried the one foot pedalling on the turbo this week, and found that after around 20-30 revolutions, things started getting a bit sloppy and I found myself 'catching' the wheel pace somewhere around 1 o clock.
Do I keep at the one footed pedalling thing for any amount of time, and do I use a lighter or heavier resistance? I figure that the Turbo is perfect for improving pedalling efficiency and I should be focusing on this to make gains in speed on the road.
Do I keep at the one footed pedalling thing for any amount of time, and do I use a lighter or heavier resistance? I figure that the Turbo is perfect for improving pedalling efficiency and I should be focusing on this to make gains in speed on the road.
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Comments
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One foot pedalling? :roll:
Just pedal with two feet, like you would when you are cycling.0 -
Is there are reason why you are doing one-legged cycling? (Serious question, some people only have one leg - either permanently or are temporarily unable to use one of their legs).
If it's a temporary impairment, you are better off doing counterweighted single leg work where possible.
Otherwise, use as many legs are you have available.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there are reason why you are doing one-legged cycling? (Serious question, some people only have one leg - either permanently or are temporarily unable to use one of their legs).
If it's a temporary impairment, you are better off doing counterweighted single leg work where possible.
Otherwise, use as many legs are you have available.
Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
My view is that once you start to concentrate on individual components of the pedal stroke and consciously try to pedal in a specific way you begin to pedal in an unnatural way which does not generate as much sustainable power and brings about more fatigue.
Many sports have discovered this.
I can't see the benefit in one legged cycling or working on changing your pedal stroke, unless you pedal in a particularly odd way.0 -
I can't see the benefit, but I'm happy to keep an open mind0
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Have you reached the absolute limit of your performance, such that you absolutely cannot increase it by increasing the intensity, duration or frequency of your training? If not, why focus on something that may or may not work, and even if it does work, would increase your performance by such a negligible amount in comparison?CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!0
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Trev The Rev wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there are reason why you are doing one-legged cycling? (Serious question, some people only have one leg - either permanently or are temporarily unable to use one of their legs).
If it's a temporary impairment, you are better off doing counterweighted single leg work where possible.
Otherwise, use as many legs are you have available.
Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
My view is that once you start to concentrate on individual components of the pedal stroke and consciously try to pedal in a specific way you begin to pedal in an unnatural way which does not generate as much sustainable power and brings about more fatigue.
Many sports have discovered this.
I can't see the benefit in one legged cycling or working on changing your pedal stroke, unless you pedal in a particularly odd way.
What other sports have discovered that if you consciously try to pedal in a specific way etc etc? Pedalo racing?0 -
Froomes Edgar wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there are reason why you are doing one-legged cycling? (Serious question, some people only have one leg - either permanently or are temporarily unable to use one of their legs).
If it's a temporary impairment, you are better off doing counterweighted single leg work where possible.
Otherwise, use as many legs are you have available.
Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
My view is that once you start to concentrate on individual components of the pedal stroke and consciously try to pedal in a specific way you begin to pedal in an unnatural way which does not generate as much sustainable power and brings about more fatigue.
Many sports have discovered this.
I can't see the benefit in one legged cycling or working on changing your pedal stroke, unless you pedal in a particularly odd way.
What other sports have discovered that if you consciously try to pedal in a specific way etc etc? Pedalo racing?
I was referring to other sports which require various techniques. I agree I did not make that clear, and I agree I did not word that very well.0 -
Thank you for clarifying, much appreciated0
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my daughter is on a BC talent program and they ve given her one legged drills to work on.0
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Surely the idea behind one-legged drills is to get you to think about pedalling circles, and think about what your foot is doing on the upstroke.
I do some occasionally and think they're useful in smoothing out your pedalling technique.
Doesn't work on pedalos though.0 -
mamba80 wrote:my daughter is on a BC talent program and they ve given her one legged drills to work on.
Time for Alex to give his opinion.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:mamba80 wrote:my daughter is on a BC talent program and they ve given her one legged drills to work on.
Time for Alex to give his opinion.
Don't confuse FACT for opinion.0 -
ShutUpLegs wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:mamba80 wrote:my daughter is on a BC talent program and they ve given her one legged drills to work on.
Time for Alex to give his opinion.
Don't confuse FACT for opinion.
The problem is the facts are often in dispute.0 -
I often try to fit in a couple of minutes at the end of a workout with my right leg. But that is due to muscular differences between the two legs, which has improved but still has a visible difference. Not really sure there is a performance difference between the two, the left definitely looks stronger tho'.Probably just vanity.Death or Glory- Just another Story0
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Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.0 -
marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.
I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.
I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.
Do the experts look for a rough and inefficient pedaling stroke then?0 -
bernithebiker wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.
I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.
Do the experts look for a rough and inefficient pedaling stroke then?
In my opinion it is all about the force applied on the downstroke and not applying unwanted force on the pedal on the up stroke. Some might say you are confusing smoothness, efficiency and pedalling in circles. I produce the same power even if I use a normal shoe on a flat pedal.0 -
I reckon I'm with trev on this one, but I am prepared to keep an open mind......0
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel0
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danowat wrote:I reckon I'm with trev on this one, but I am prepared to keep an open mind......
Have you got your Quarq back yet?
There really is nothing in all this smooth circles and pulling up (except for very short term efforts or a track start) and scraping back. Just work on the downstroke and make sure the other leg isn't applying any negative force.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.
I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.
I've never read any paper or article that suggests we're born cyclists with a natural ability to pedal and that stomping or just pushing down is an efficient way to pedal. Who are these 'experts' you think support your point of view.0 -
marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Isn't the question of pedalling efficiency under debate. I know Obree talks about it - and many others, but many experts say there is no benefit and one should just concentrate on generating power pedalling as it comes naturally.
No, the only piece up for debate is the value of pulling up and attempting to induce power on the up stroke. Having a smooth and efficient pedaling stroke is always beneficial.
I'm not sure all the experts agree with you.
I've never read any paper or article that suggests we're born cyclists with a natural ability to pedal and that stomping or just pushing down is an efficient way to pedal. Who are these 'experts' you think support your point of view.
Well known experts. I don't think anyone mentioned stomping.
Tests have shown that pushing down hard on the pedals more often produces more power. Pushing over the top, pulling up and scraping back is not the way to go. It is harder work and awkward and causes more fatigue.
Children naturally push down on the pedals, if you are pushing hard there really isn't time to apply force scraping back and pulling up and pushing over the top of the stroke. Just push down harder and faster and concentrate on producing the desired power. Amputees can generate really good power, all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
Tests on elite cyclists show that the most talented most powerful cyclists are the ones who apply the most force most often on the downstroke. The rest makes no difference as long as you don't apply negative force on the pedal coming up. Pedalling becomes smoother the faster the cadence quite naturally with training. No need to do specific drills.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:Well known experts. I don't think anyone mentioned stomping.
Tests have shown that pushing down hard on the pedals more often produces more power. Pushing over the top, pulling up and scraping back is not the way to go. It is harder work and awkward and causes more fatigue.
Children naturally push down on the pedals, if you are pushing hard there really isn't time to apply force scraping back and pulling up and pushing over the top of the stroke. Just push down harder and faster and concentrate on producing the desired power. Amputees can generate really good power, all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
Tests on elite cyclists show that the most talented most powerful cyclists are the ones who apply the most force most often on the downstroke. The rest makes no difference as long as you don't apply negative force on the pedal coming up. Pedalling becomes smoother the faster the cadence quite naturally with training. No need to do specific drills.
Way to over simplify current research and yes while it is obvious that the bulk of the cyclist's power is developed during the down stroke. Getting the foot back into the best position to repeat the next push requires training and the development of an efficient stroke.
You even support the need for an efficient pedal stroke by suggesting that cyclists avoid applying a negative force on the pedal coming up. Not just allowing the back pedal to lift the foot, but introducing some lift.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:
all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
This flies in the face of everything I've ever learnt about pedaling over the last 20 years, so either you're onto something revolutionary or I've been reading the wrong stuff......0 -
marz wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:Well known experts. I don't think anyone mentioned stomping.
Tests have shown that pushing down hard on the pedals more often produces more power. Pushing over the top, pulling up and scraping back is not the way to go. It is harder work and awkward and causes more fatigue.
Children naturally push down on the pedals, if you are pushing hard there really isn't time to apply force scraping back and pulling up and pushing over the top of the stroke. Just push down harder and faster and concentrate on producing the desired power. Amputees can generate really good power, all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
Tests on elite cyclists show that the most talented most powerful cyclists are the ones who apply the most force most often on the downstroke. The rest makes no difference as long as you don't apply negative force on the pedal coming up. Pedalling becomes smoother the faster the cadence quite naturally with training. No need to do specific drills.
Way to over simplify current research and yes while it is obvious that the bulk of the cyclist's power is developed during the down stroke. Getting the foot back into the best position to repeat the next push requires training and the development of an efficient stroke.
You even support the need for an efficient pedal stroke by suggesting that cyclists avoid applying a negative force on the pedal coming up. Not just allowing the back pedal to lift the foot, but introducing some lift.
What I'm saying is that pulling up pushing over the top and scraping back does not make a more efficient stroke.
Pulling up may help generate more force but is less efficient. I contend that it is perfectly natural and does not need specific thought or special drills to keep the foot on the pedal without applying negative force on the up stroke.
Just work on applying good force on the downstroke the rest falls into place.
Many people confuse smooth pedalling with pulling up pushing over and scraping back or circular pedalling. Powerful efficient pedalling is all about the downstroke. Smooth is about natural coordination and having a set up which allows you to generate the power easily.0 -
bernithebiker wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:
all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
This flies in the face of everything I've ever learnt about pedaling over the last 20 years, so either you're onto something revolutionary or I've been reading the wrong stuff......
I don't think it is revolutionary. I tried out all that ankling scraping stuff back in 1969 when I first used toe clips and straps and it didn't make me any faster.
The most powerful riders don't apply an even force through the whole stroke. In fact trying to do this will reduce power.
Don't worry about pedalling technique or style concentrate on improving power by pushing harder and faster. Things fall into place. Even torque throughout the pedal stroke is not a natural way to pedal, consequently it is not as effective.
http://velodynamics2.webs.com/OSFconfusion.pdf
With respect to pedaling ‘smoothness,’ increased power production does not result from applying force evenly
throughout the pedal stroke, but primarily by applying more of it on the downstroke (0-180°) portion – or to put it
simply, more powerful riders don’t pedal smoother, they just stomp harder:0 -
For the little it's worth
When I'm cruising, going downhill or sitting in a bunch I find my pedaling style to be very smooth, circular and even... for want of a better description. However when I'm on the limit, I find it to much more push push push, as in pushing down on the pedals.
This isn't a conscious decision it's just something I've noticed.0 -
Thanks to the piss takers on this thread, your input is much appreciated. I was aware that there are drills for this such as the one foot pedalling stuff on a turbo but wanted a bit more advice on how it should be done (big gear/little gear/fast cadence/slow cadence) and how to actually achieve a better technique. To add to that, no I'm not at the very peak of my abilities to be looking to find that last little drop of pace, but surely having a good technique in everything means that you set yourself a base for your activity knowing that you have the right tools in the bag for the job. Surely pedalling technique matters as much as keeping a good position on the bike.0
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Trev The Rev wrote:bernithebiker wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:
all this ankling and toeing stuff is a red herring.
This flies in the face of everything I've ever learnt about pedaling over the last 20 years, so either you're onto something revolutionary or I've been reading the wrong stuff......
I don't think it is revolutionary. I tried out all that ankling scraping stuff back in 1969 when I first used toe clips and straps and it didn't make me any faster.
The most powerful riders don't apply an even force through the whole stroke. In fact trying to do this will reduce power.
Don't worry about pedalling technique or style concentrate on improving power by pushing harder and faster. Things fall into place. Even torque throughout the pedal stroke is not a natural way to pedal, consequently it is not as effective.
http://velodynamics2.webs.com/OSFconfusion.pdf
With respect to pedaling ‘smoothness,’ increased power production does not result from applying force evenly
throughout the pedal stroke, but primarily by applying more of it on the downstroke (0-180°) portion – or to put it
simply, more powerful riders don’t pedal smoother, they just stomp harder:
Noone is suggesting to try for 'even torque throughout the pedal stroke', which is clearly impossible.
Your downstroke will always be stronger than your upstroke.
And of course, the harder you push on the downstroke, the faster you will go.
BUT, what I am saying is that you can improve your pedaling smoothness if you think about your technique a little bit - even you seem to have agreed that it is a good thing to unweight your upward foot, so if you don't do this already, it's a good thing to train for.
Sometimes I find myself tiring on a strenuous section and realize I'm not 'pedaling circles' - when I then do so I find it makes things a bit easier and gives some muscle relief.
I keep meaning to make a big sticker that says 'Pedal Circles' for my stem so I can always see it, because I find I forget and stomp too much.0
