rest and recovery weeks

joe.90

in terms of rest weeks, what do you lot do?

i get the general idea, i try to just lower the intensity rather than quantity..but to be honest have been crap at doing it. mainly because i hate riding my bike and not giving 100%, to me it feels pointless.

interested in hearing what everyone else does, gotta be someone else out there who feels the same? would it be best to stay away from the bike for a few days, or bite the bullet and just slow it down?

i do approx 12-15 hours a week, and to be honest, feel only my legs need the break sometimes rather than general fatigue.

aidso

I don't know anyone who does a rest week, but I know plenty who subscribe to the active recovery days. They would spend every day on the bike, culminating with a race on a Sunday and then the Monday spin would be a Zone 2 easy pace - using the granny gears if you must encounter a hill.
How are you achieving your 15 hours? Is it 2 hours every day or or you doing 3 days of 5hrs? It doesn't strike me as a lot to need a whole week to recover. Your diet and an earlier bedtime could also benefit the recovery time if you think you feel a bit sluggish.

joe.90

aidso wrote:

I don't know anyone who does a rest week, but I know plenty who subscribe to the active recovery days. They would spend every day on the bike, culminating with a race on a Sunday and then the Monday spin would be a Zone 2 easy pace - using the granny gears if you must encounter a hill.
How are you achieving your 15 hours? Is it 2 hours every day or or you doing 3 days of 5hrs? It doesn't strike me as a lot to need a whole week to recover. Your diet and an earlier bedtime could also benefit the recovery time if you think you feel a bit sluggish.

thanks for the reply.

the 15 hours is mainly 1 hour turbo sessions in the week, with a 2hr commute mid week, then longer rides at the weekend.

i think you are right on the food and sleeping side of things, im a crap sleeper, its something i need to address and i eat very healthy, but i dont think enough, as im always pretty hungry.

mike101

Every 4th week I have an adaption week. I ride the same amount but at a lower intensity. It's definitely tricky easing off the pace, especially out on the road.

okgo

Never have more than a couple of days off the bike in a row if I can help it, obviously not always possible and I go on holiday etc.

I tend to always go on feel, whether that meant riding two weeks flat out with no days off or whether it just means a hard week where I need some time to not be on the bike, whatever worked I guess. A week is too long. And pointless.

GiantMike

If I feel I've earned a rest I take it. I rarely work hard enough to need more than a day.

danowat

Rest week?, no

Easy(er) week?, yes, but only at the end of each block of training

Froomes Edgar

GiantMike wrote:

If I feel I've earned a rest I take it. I rarely work hard enough to need more than a day.

Exactly. If you're so tired that you can't train properly e.g. hit the numbers during intervals, rest until you can. If you're not tired, why rest?

Christ people don't half over-complicate things.

Herbsman

Froomes Edgar wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

If I feel I've earned a rest I take it. I rarely work hard enough to need more than a day.

Exactly. If you're so tired that you can't train properly e.g. hit the numbers during intervals, rest until you can. If you're not tired, why rest?

Christ people don't half over-complicate things.

Because sometimes it's nice to have a break purely for psychological reasons or to spend time with the other half, or my mates, or my family. I might feel physically good after four weeks of high intensity training but following that up with a week of fewer & easier training sessions and doing something else with my spare time helps mentally. More importantly it gives me more time to spend with the woman in my life...

Froomes Edgar

Well if you're physically fine but want time off for other reasons, why would you need to drop the intensity?

Herbsman

Mental rest.

Besides that, even if you don't feel you need a rest, rest is still beneficial.

Who cares anyway? Each individual will do what they feel is best for them... I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that :?

phreak

If you're not living like a pro you're not a real cyclist. Or something.

Froomes Edgar

Herbsman wrote:

Froomes Edgar wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

If I feel I've earned a rest I take it. I rarely work hard enough to need more than a day.

Exactly. If you're so tired that you can't train properly e.g. hit the numbers during intervals, rest until you can. If you're not tired, why rest?

Christ people don't half over-complicate things.

Because sometimes it's nice to have a break purely for psychological reasons or to spend time with the other half, or my mates, or my family. I might feel physically good after four weeks of high intensity training but following that up with a week of fewer & easier training sessions and doing something else with my spare time helps mentally. More importantly it gives me more time to spend with the woman in my life...

As phreak fails to understand, it makes perfect sense to respond to questions in a Training forum with the optimal answer WRT making a cyclist as fast as he can be. If said rider has other priorities in his life (which we all do) then he's free to disregard. Otherwise, the answer to every question would be "list EVERY F*CKING DETAIL of your life in priority order before I can help". FFS

mamba80

Are you "ON" ?

Got to agree with Danowat, it has to depend on what your doing, family, work, stress and age.

Always try and get a few days of easier or shorter efforts in, especially over winter, dont want to get ill! Fatigue has a habit of creeping up on you, not coming on suddenly - as in your case

SBezza

I sometimes have "rest weeks", but they are not a week off the bike, it is just an easier week to allow the body to recover from the previous weeks hard training, you body only gets better with rest. Now that might be active rest, complete day off the bike etc, it all depends on what you have done in the previous weeks and how tired you are.

Those of us with powermeters can measure this tiredness, and also if you have a coach their experience will guide you. There is no real set timeframe however, the classic 3 weeks training 1 week rest might be needed in someone that trains very heavily, but those that do moderate training might not even need an R&R week.

It isn't just about hitting numbers, I could still hit good numbers even when extremely tired, but what that extreme tiredness will do is cause a very deep underlying fatigue that can lead to over training and lack of adaption. As mamba80 has said deep down fatigue creeps up very slowly, but can bite very hard indeed. All life stresses have to be taken into account, the body doesn't handle training stress and differently to work or life stresses, they all release the same hormones and the body will struggle to deal with everything if you just keep on hammering the body.

Trev The Rev

SBezza wrote:

I sometimes have "rest weeks", but they are not a week off the bike, it is just an easier week to allow the body to recover from the previous weeks hard training, you body only gets better with rest. Now that might be active rest, complete day off the bike etc, it all depends on what you have done in the previous weeks and how tired you are.

Those of us with powermeters can measure this tiredness, and also if you have a coach their experience will guide you. There is no real set timeframe however, the classic 3 weeks training 1 week rest might be needed in someone that trains very heavily, but those that do moderate training might not even need an R&R week.

It isn't just about hitting numbers, I could still hit good numbers even when extremely tired, but what that extreme tiredness will do is cause a very deep underlying fatigue that can lead to over training and lack of adaption. As mamba80 has said deep down fatigue creeps up very slowly, but can bite very hard indeed. All life stresses have to be taken into account, the body doesn't handle training stress and differently to work or life stresses, they all release the same hormones and the body will struggle to deal with everything if you just keep on hammering the body.

For the benefit of those who don't have power meters - how?

danowat

Just to flesh out my answer a bit, this week is my rest recovery week, and it's as follows.

Mon - 1hr Z1
Tues- rest (doesn't mean total rest, normally core work or similar)
Wed - 1-2hr's Z2
Thur - 1-2hr's Z2
Fri - rest (doesn't mean total rest, normally core work or similar)
Sat - 25 mile TT in training gear on local course, or CP20 on turbo, dependant on conditions
Sun - 2hrs+ Z2

SBezza

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

I sometimes have "rest weeks", but they are not a week off the bike, it is just an easier week to allow the body to recover from the previous weeks hard training, you body only gets better with rest. Now that might be active rest, complete day off the bike etc, it all depends on what you have done in the previous weeks and how tired you are.

Those of us with powermeters can measure this tiredness, and also if you have a coach their experience will guide you. There is no real set timeframe however, the classic 3 weeks training 1 week rest might be needed in someone that trains very heavily, but those that do moderate training might not even need an R&R week.

It isn't just about hitting numbers, I could still hit good numbers even when extremely tired, but what that extreme tiredness will do is cause a very deep underlying fatigue that can lead to over training and lack of adaption. As mamba80 has said deep down fatigue creeps up very slowly, but can bite very hard indeed. All life stresses have to be taken into account, the body doesn't handle training stress and differently to work or life stresses, they all release the same hormones and the body will struggle to deal with everything if you just keep on hammering the body.

For the benefit of those who don't have power meters - how?

With the right software, you have a performance manager that can track training load (stress), both long term and short term and you get from this a training stress balance, go too negative or make a negative change in this too quickly and you will suffer fatigue. Keep it at a very depressed level and overtraining is very likely to occur. One caveat is that FTP needs to be accurate and all training rides should really be uploaded into the software to get a full picture. Each ride creates a training stress, and this based on intensity and duration.

Trev The Rev

SBezza wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

I sometimes have "rest weeks", but they are not a week off the bike, it is just an easier week to allow the body to recover from the previous weeks hard training, you body only gets better with rest. Now that might be active rest, complete day off the bike etc, it all depends on what you have done in the previous weeks and how tired you are.

Those of us with powermeters can measure this tiredness, and also if you have a coach their experience will guide you. There is no real set timeframe however, the classic 3 weeks training 1 week rest might be needed in someone that trains very heavily, but those that do moderate training might not even need an R&R week.

It isn't just about hitting numbers, I could still hit good numbers even when extremely tired, but what that extreme tiredness will do is cause a very deep underlying fatigue that can lead to over training and lack of adaption. As mamba80 has said deep down fatigue creeps up very slowly, but can bite very hard indeed. All life stresses have to be taken into account, the body doesn't handle training stress and differently to work or life stresses, they all release the same hormones and the body will struggle to deal with everything if you just keep on hammering the body.

For the benefit of those who don't have power meters - how?

With the right software, you have a performance manager that can track training load (stress), both long term and short term and you get from this a training stress balance, go too negative or make a negative change in this too quickly and you will suffer fatigue. Keep it at a very depressed level and overtraining is very likely to occur. One caveat is that FTP needs to be accurate and all training rides should really be uploaded into the software to get a full picture. Each ride creates a training stress, and this based on intensity and duration.

Wouldn't different people respond differently though? Two people may have the same FTP do the same training and one respond by improvement and the other might get seriously fatigued. You can't poke the same numbers into different people and expect to get the same level of fatigue out of them. One man may find a given training load easy to endure but another man may find that load over demanding but they may both have the same FTP. People respond differently.

SBezza

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

I sometimes have "rest weeks", but they are not a week off the bike, it is just an easier week to allow the body to recover from the previous weeks hard training, you body only gets better with rest. Now that might be active rest, complete day off the bike etc, it all depends on what you have done in the previous weeks and how tired you are.

Those of us with powermeters can measure this tiredness, and also if you have a coach their experience will guide you. There is no real set timeframe however, the classic 3 weeks training 1 week rest might be needed in someone that trains very heavily, but those that do moderate training might not even need an R&R week.

It isn't just about hitting numbers, I could still hit good numbers even when extremely tired, but what that extreme tiredness will do is cause a very deep underlying fatigue that can lead to over training and lack of adaption. As mamba80 has said deep down fatigue creeps up very slowly, but can bite very hard indeed. All life stresses have to be taken into account, the body doesn't handle training stress and differently to work or life stresses, they all release the same hormones and the body will struggle to deal with everything if you just keep on hammering the body.

For the benefit of those who don't have power meters - how?

With the right software, you have a performance manager that can track training load (stress), both long term and short term and you get from this a training stress balance, go too negative or make a negative change in this too quickly and you will suffer fatigue. Keep it at a very depressed level and overtraining is very likely to occur. One caveat is that FTP needs to be accurate and all training rides should really be uploaded into the software to get a full picture. Each ride creates a training stress, and this based on intensity and duration.

Wouldn't different people respond differently though? Two people may have the same FTP do the same training and one respond by improvement and the other might get seriously fatigued. You can't poke the same numbers into different people and expect to get the same level of fatigue out of them. One man may find a given training load easy to endure but another man may find that load over demanding but they may both have the same FTP. People respond differently.

Yes different people will respond differently, and it does depend on how the stress is generated as well, a 200TSS endurance ride is alot different to a 200TSS tempo ride in terms of short term fatigue, and too a certain extent long term fatigue (this is where the intensity and duration come into it). How you interept the information given out, is a skill that needs to be learned. It is not foolproof by any means, but as long as you know what you can personally handle it is a good guide. As you get fitter you can handle more stress as well, and probably hold onto the negative TSB for longer without feeling too unduly tired.

Trev The Rev

So you can measure work done accurately with a power meter. An individual may be able to handle a certain training stress score easily some weeks or months but struggle others due to all sorts of life stresses, or stresses on their immune system (which might not even be seen as illness or loss of form until it is too late), injury, improvements in fitness, loss of fitness, motivation, loads of factors. These scores the software provide are meaningless if you don't learn how to feel your own body, or understand your subjects responses and or, if you can, measure hormone levels / bloods etc.

I don't think you can say you can measure fatigue with a power meter but you can use one to help you.

SBezza

Trev The Rev wrote:

So you can measure work done accurately with a power meter. An individual may be able to handle a certain training stress score easily some weeks or months but struggle others due to all sorts of life stresses, or stresses on their immune system (which might not even be seen as illness or loss of form until it is too late), injury, improvements in fitness, loss of fitness, motivation, loads of factors. These scores the software provide are meaningless if you don't learn how to feel your own body, or understand your subjects responses and or, if you can, measure hormone levels / bloods etc.

I don't think you can say you can measure fatigue with a power meter but you can use one to help you.

You can't measure it as in look at a number and hey presto, but the data the powermeter gives you, allows you to determine if you are gettting close to overdoing it. Most people can't feel what their body is doing, some might take a rest day because they feel tired, but hell if you are training regularly and fairly hard, then yes of course you are going to be tired, it is making sure you don't get too tired (and how the hell do you judge that)

Yes you need to listen to the body, but that is a skill that needs to be learned as well, there is a poster on this thread that has mentioned before that when his TSB gets to a certain figure he knows he needs to back off a bit as history has told him this. Other life stresses are not taken into account by the software admittedly, but others don't seem to take them into account when listening to the body either, this is where the skill comes into interepting all the available data, if a rider blindly follows just these figures he might well be a fool, but then again he might be very wise as well if he knows his/her history.

The figures it gives you, paints a pretty good picture of what is happening, especially when used for a prolonged period. It doesn't tell either yes or no in terms of the data, it helps guide you along with alot of other things. People still measure their waking HR as if this is some clue as to what is going on with the body, but HR alone is pretty meaningless, you need other information to make an informed decision as to what is happening inside you. It is the same with the data the PMC provides with TSB.

As you obviously have no intention of using a powermeter, you have no real idea of how it works, and the aid to training it can provide.

GiantMike

I've just completed a very hard week of turbo and road workouts and I'm still feeling quite chipper and keen to do another session tonight. So, based on TSB* alone I may have thought I need a rest.

Previously I have felt tired and lethargic, like I need a rest, but then have gone on to do either a good workout or a good race. So, based on feel alone I'd have not worked-out or raced.

I balance the powermeter data with how I feel to work out if I want/need to do another session.

* I don't use TSB and have significant doubts about the usefulness of TSS or bikescore as a measure of training stress and workload. When I was doing a lot of running I devised a scoring system for each run and kept a track of cumulative loading and I found it very useful. I'm working on a similar system for cycling that will allow a decent comparison between different types and durations of workout.

Team4Luke

joe.90 wrote:

in terms of rest weeks, what do you lot do?

i get the general idea, i try to just lower the intensity rather than quantity..but to be honest have been crap at doing it. mainly because i hate riding my bike and not giving 100%, to me it feels pointless.

interested in hearing what everyone else does, gotta be someone else out there who feels the same? would it be best to stay away from the bike for a few days, or bite the bullet and just slow it down?

i do approx 12-15 hours a week, and to be honest, feel only my legs need the break sometimes rather than general fatigue.

can only go off above, but sounds like your doing too much at weekend and starting week off already tired, this is a patten for most of us who work and then feel the need to hammer it at weekend, also difficult until we get the light nights back then you can spread the load better. There is no need to measure your recovery other than ensure you dial some into your blocks of training during the week and after say three weeks. If your training is progressive and structured you should be feeling it toward end of week and do less volume but more quality.

Trev The Rev

SBezza wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

So you can measure work done accurately with a power meter. An individual may be able to handle a certain training stress score easily some weeks or months but struggle others due to all sorts of life stresses, or stresses on their immune system (which might not even be seen as illness or loss of form until it is too late), injury, improvements in fitness, loss of fitness, motivation, loads of factors. These scores the software provide are meaningless if you don't learn how to feel your own body, or understand your subjects responses and or, if you can, measure hormone levels / bloods etc.

I don't think you can say you can measure fatigue with a power meter but you can use one to help you.

You can't measure it as in look at a number and hey presto, but the data the powermeter gives you, allows you to determine if you are gettting close to overdoing it. Most people can't feel what their body is doing, some might take a rest day because they feel tired, but hell if you are training regularly and fairly hard, then yes of course you are going to be tired, it is making sure you don't get too tired (and how the hell do you judge that)

Yes you need to listen to the body, but that is a skill that needs to be learned as well, there is a poster on this thread that has mentioned before that when his TSB gets to a certain figure he knows he needs to back off a bit as history has told him this. Other life stresses are not taken into account by the software admittedly, but others don't seem to take them into account when listening to the body either, this is where the skill comes into interepting all the available data, if a rider blindly follows just these figures he might well be a fool, but then again he might be very wise as well if he knows his/her history.

The figures it gives you, paints a pretty good picture of what is happening, especially when used for a prolonged period. It doesn't tell either yes or no in terms of the data, it helps guide you along with alot of other things. People still measure their waking HR as if this is some clue as to what is going on with the body, but HR alone is pretty meaningless, you need other information to make an informed decision as to what is happening inside you. It is the same with the data the PMC provides with TSB.

As you obviously have no intention of using a powermeter, you have no real idea of how it works, and the aid to training it can provide.

I have and do use power meters and will continue to use them in future. I understand they and the related software are a very useful tools, (when the power meter is working and calibrated correctly), which can aid training effectively.

SBezza

GiantMike wrote:

I've just completed a very hard week of turbo and road workouts and I'm still feeling quite chipper and keen to do another session tonight. So, based on TSB* alone I may have thought I need a rest.

Previously I have felt tired and lethargic, like I need a rest, but then have gone on to do either a good workout or a good race. So, based on feel alone I'd have not worked-out or raced.

I balance the powermeter data with how I feel to work out if I want/need to do another session.

* I don't use TSB and have significant doubts about the usefulness of TSS or bikescore as a measure of training stress and workload. When I was doing a lot of running I devised a scoring system for each run and kept a track of cumulative loading and I found it very useful. I'm working on a similar system for cycling that will allow a decent comparison between different types and durations of workout.

If you don't use it, you can't begin to compare :roll:

Again it isn't anything to do with the ability to do another session, be it a good or bad session (I have had crap sessions when fairly well rested), it is to help stop long term chronic fatigue, which creeps up very very slowly, but when it bites, it bites very hard. 1 week of hard training doesn't really present an issue, try 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then 5 weeks without proper recovery and before you know it you are downward spiral that is hard to notice at first, but may take a fair few weeks of doing nothing to get out of. I could quite happily train tonight hard, and again tomorrow and Wednesday, and I would do the session based on my personailty of not giving up if I can keep the power up, but the long term damage might mean instead of helping me progress, it starts to hinder me. That is the skill of coaching for one, knowing when to push the athlete hard and then backing off slightly to get the benefits before pushing on again at a slightly harder intensity, or higher volume.

TSS whilst not perfect gives you quite meaningful information, it again shouldn't be taken in isolation, and if the correct software is used, it isn't taking in isolation.

SBezza

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

So you can measure work done accurately with a power meter. An individual may be able to handle a certain training stress score easily some weeks or months but struggle others due to all sorts of life stresses, or stresses on their immune system (which might not even be seen as illness or loss of form until it is too late), injury, improvements in fitness, loss of fitness, motivation, loads of factors. These scores the software provide are meaningless if you don't learn how to feel your own body, or understand your subjects responses and or, if you can, measure hormone levels / bloods etc.

I don't think you can say you can measure fatigue with a power meter but you can use one to help you.

You can't measure it as in look at a number and hey presto, but the data the powermeter gives you, allows you to determine if you are gettting close to overdoing it. Most people can't feel what their body is doing, some might take a rest day because they feel tired, but hell if you are training regularly and fairly hard, then yes of course you are going to be tired, it is making sure you don't get too tired (and how the hell do you judge that)

Yes you need to listen to the body, but that is a skill that needs to be learned as well, there is a poster on this thread that has mentioned before that when his TSB gets to a certain figure he knows he needs to back off a bit as history has told him this. Other life stresses are not taken into account by the software admittedly, but others don't seem to take them into account when listening to the body either, this is where the skill comes into interepting all the available data, if a rider blindly follows just these figures he might well be a fool, but then again he might be very wise as well if he knows his/her history.

The figures it gives you, paints a pretty good picture of what is happening, especially when used for a prolonged period. It doesn't tell either yes or no in terms of the data, it helps guide you along with alot of other things. People still measure their waking HR as if this is some clue as to what is going on with the body, but HR alone is pretty meaningless, you need other information to make an informed decision as to what is happening inside you. It is the same with the data the PMC provides with TSB.

As you obviously have no intention of using a powermeter, you have no real idea of how it works, and the aid to training it can provide.

I have and do use power meters and will continue to use them in future. I understand they and the related software are a very useful tools, (when the power meter is working and calibrated correctly), which can aid training effectively.

Well if you use them, then you should have a good understanding of how TSB can help with managing fatigue. You can only get a reliable TSB from using a powermeter.

Trev The Rev

SBezza wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

I've just completed a very hard week of turbo and road workouts and I'm still feeling quite chipper and keen to do another session tonight. So, based on TSB* alone I may have thought I need a rest.

Previously I have felt tired and lethargic, like I need a rest, but then have gone on to do either a good workout or a good race. So, based on feel alone I'd have not worked-out or raced.

I balance the powermeter data with how I feel to work out if I want/need to do another session.

* I don't use TSB and have significant doubts about the usefulness of TSS or bikescore as a measure of training stress and workload. When I was doing a lot of running I devised a scoring system for each run and kept a track of cumulative loading and I found it very useful. I'm working on a similar system for cycling that will allow a decent comparison between different types and durations of workout.

If you don't use it, you can't begin to compare :roll:

Again it isn't anything to do with the ability to do another session, be it a good or bad session (I have had crap sessions when fairly well rested), it is to help stop long term chronic fatigue, which creeps up very very slowly, but when it bites, it bites very hard. 1 week of hard training doesn't really present an issue, try 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then 5 weeks without proper recovery and before you know it you are downward spiral that is hard to notice at first, but may take a fair few weeks of doing nothing to get out of. I could quite happily train tonight hard, and again tomorrow and Wednesday, and I would do the session based on my personailty of not giving up if I can keep the power up, but the long term damage might mean instead of helping me progress, it starts to hinder me. That is the skill of coaching for one, knowing when to push the athlete hard and then backing off slightly to get the benefits before pushing on again at a slightly harder intensity, or higher volume.

TSS whilst not perfect gives you quite meaningful information, it again shouldn't be taken in isolation, and if the correct software is used, it isn't taking in isolation.

A good coach should spot the onset of over training or chronic fatigue with or without a power meter. There are many signs, none of which are measured by a power meter, in fact power meter data can mask the signs, particularly in an athlete that is highly motivated. Often the last person to spot the onset is the athlete himself. This is why proper face to face, hands on coaching is so important.

I am not sure if there is research into over training or chronic fatigue comparing different sports but I would bet there is more in cycling than other sports.

SBezza

Trev The Rev wrote:

SBezza wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

I've just completed a very hard week of turbo and road workouts and I'm still feeling quite chipper and keen to do another session tonight. So, based on TSB* alone I may have thought I need a rest.

Previously I have felt tired and lethargic, like I need a rest, but then have gone on to do either a good workout or a good race. So, based on feel alone I'd have not worked-out or raced.

I balance the powermeter data with how I feel to work out if I want/need to do another session.

* I don't use TSB and have significant doubts about the usefulness of TSS or bikescore as a measure of training stress and workload. When I was doing a lot of running I devised a scoring system for each run and kept a track of cumulative loading and I found it very useful. I'm working on a similar system for cycling that will allow a decent comparison between different types and durations of workout.

If you don't use it, you can't begin to compare :roll:

Again it isn't anything to do with the ability to do another session, be it a good or bad session (I have had crap sessions when fairly well rested), it is to help stop long term chronic fatigue, which creeps up very very slowly, but when it bites, it bites very hard. 1 week of hard training doesn't really present an issue, try 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then 5 weeks without proper recovery and before you know it you are downward spiral that is hard to notice at first, but may take a fair few weeks of doing nothing to get out of. I could quite happily train tonight hard, and again tomorrow and Wednesday, and I would do the session based on my personailty of not giving up if I can keep the power up, but the long term damage might mean instead of helping me progress, it starts to hinder me. That is the skill of coaching for one, knowing when to push the athlete hard and then backing off slightly to get the benefits before pushing on again at a slightly harder intensity, or higher volume.

TSS whilst not perfect gives you quite meaningful information, it again shouldn't be taken in isolation, and if the correct software is used, it isn't taking in isolation.

A good coach should spot the onset of over training or chronic fatigue with or without a power meter. There are many signs, none of which are measured by a power meter, in fact power meter data can mask the signs, particularly in an athlete that is highly motivated. Often the last person to spot the onset is the athlete himself. This is why proper face to face, hands on coaching is so important.

I am not sure if there is research into over training or chronic fatigue comparing different sports but I would bet there is more in cycling than other sports.

A coach will only spot it if the information provide by the athlete is correct, at least with power data that could be challenged if the coach saw that TSB was very negative for a prolonged period. A very highly motivated athlete could fool a very good coach as well no doubt if all the coach had to go on was HR data and comments from the athlete, as I mentioned earlier HR doesn't really give any info in isolation. One to one hands on coaching is not possible for an amateur though, firstly very very expensive, and as you spend all day working and do training in the evening, is the coach going to come around to your house and watch you train. Alot of people that train for cyle sport don't have a coach either so need to monitor fatigue themselves, and as you say they will be the last to spot symptoms, which is where additional data from a powermeter and related software can help massively.

There probably is more chronic fatigue in cycling, as it is not weight bearing. You can quite easily keep pushing the body without any other detremental effects like injuries you might get whilst running for example by overdoing it.

Trev The Rev

SBezza wrote:

, at least with power data that could be challenged if the coach saw that TSB was very negative for a prolonged period. A very highly motivated athlete could fool a very good coach as well no doubt if all the coach had to go on was HR data and comments from the athlete, as I mentioned earlier HR doesn't really give any info in isolation. One to one hands on coaching is not possible for an amateur though, firstly very very expensive, and as you spend all day working and do training in the evening, is the coach going to come around to your house and watch you train. Alot of people that train for cyle sport don't have a coach either so need to monitor fatigue themselves, and as you say they will be the last to spot symptoms, which is where additional data from a powermeter and related software can help massively.

There probably is more chronic fatigue in cycling, as it is not weight bearing. You can quite easily keep pushing the body without any other detremental effects like injuries you might get whilst running for example by overdoing it.

This is a very good reason why a coach should see the athlete. Hands on coaching is perfectly possible. The coach does not need to see every session but there is a massive amount of information you can gain from seeing and talking to an athlete - even if it is only for an hour or so during a group session or 20 minutes once a week. There is far more to coaching than being sent power meter data, looking at it with some software then prescribing some training sessions.

Not sure why you keep bringing heart rate into it. Heart rate is of interest in conjunction with everything else.
The problem with power data in isolation is if the athlete is consistently hitting the numbers he can assume everything must be OK and miss the reality of the situation.

I agree with you about cycling being vulnerable because many natural 'rest / recovery enforcer mechanisms' are removed due to the relatively low forces and the fact there is no weight bearing or stress on joints tendons or jarring of muscles. Cyclists can endure far more hours of intense work compared to other sports which make the need to rest or recover so much more obvious.

SBezza

Some people have long distances coaches Trev, not everyone will be able to have a coach that is available quite so freely as you mention. Even so a coach is only as good as the information they receive from the athlete, either face to face or via daily/weekly e-mails or phone calls.

I mentioned HR as this is a common thing used to determine fatigue as well, though incorrectly if not used in conjunction with other data, just the same as a powermeter

Yes I agree about using a powermeter and still hitting numbers and getting more fatigued, I mentioned it in another reply earlier, and I wholly agree with you there, but as I have mentioned having this information greatly helps avoiding excess fatigue, it doesn't eliminate it, nothing does unfortunately until you are overtrained and ill.