Training for the Etape

twotyred

I have just purchased a WiFli kit for my SRAM equipped bike for the Marmotte.
I'm going to run a 34-32 lowest gear and personally think people are crazy to run any less, unless you are very strong (ie going for sub 9 hour

Agreed. For some reason in Britain we get hopelessly macho about gearing. If you are like me and paddling in the shallow end of the aerobic power gene pool with a 3.0-3.5 watts per kg FTP don't kid yourself about gearing and gear down if necessary.

I did last years Marmotte using a min gear of 34 x 32 with a compact chainset and SRAM Apex on the back. Year before I did it using 34 x 28. My times were within 5 minutes of each other however the Apex cassette did make my cadence more comfortable. Using 34 x 28 my cadence was dropping to 50-60 rpm at top of the Galibier and on the Alpe. Using 34 x 32 the next year it was at a more comfortable (for my legs at least, the suffering was the same) 60-70 rpm. With hindsight I wish I'd gone for a 34 x 34 to get it in to the 70-80 rpm range.

Nobody's ever failed to get up Alpe d'Huez because their gears were too low but plenty have failed to get up because their gears were too high.

inseine

So, I'm running SRAM force (compact), but if I wanted the mega low gears can I just buy an Apex rear derailleur and APEX cassette? I'll obviously need a longer chain, but that's it, no? Thanks

manxshred

You can now get apex, rival and force medium cage derailleurs, then a 10 speed 11 - 32 cassette (I prefer the simano xt one due to the gear jumps) and new chain.
I'm training on my normal derailleur and gears, but closer to the time, I'll swap everything over, or if my chain needs replacing before then.

twotyred

I swap my usual Ultegra short cage mech for a Shimano 105 medium cage mech and a longer chain.

itboffin

I used a std double with 27 rear for a weeks riding in the Alps, that was barely largely due to the group I was with not thrashing it, then last year I did a week in the Pyrenees with a compact and a 27 and hated the gearing, mind you I was barely out of the 34 and the last three rings at the back all week, when they say avg 8% what they really mean is at some point there's an 8% section the rest will be 10+ :?

I've signed up for the Marmotte this year and as well as trying to lose at least 2 stone, I'm getting a triple for sure 52/39/30 for me - I have no shame, I'm old and slow and I want to enjoy the ride, not suffer all the way to the end.

bahzob

itboffin wrote:

I've signed up for the Marmotte this year and as well as trying to lose at least 2 stone, I'm getting a triple for sure 52/39/30 for me - I have no shame, I'm old and slow and I want to enjoy the ride, not suffer all the way to the end.

Don't do yourself down. I have finished in overall top 200 of the etape and my gearing of choice would be a triple.

I have overtaken thousands of riders over the years and 99% of them were trying to push too big a gear.

In the same time I have been overtaken by a handful of faster folks and 100% of them were in a gear that they could turn over comfortably at a nice tempo.

Courage Monsieur

My mate ground up the Alpe on 39x25. He's not a regular cyclist.

When I told him he'd almost definitely have gone up it faster on a lower gear at a faster cadence he wasn't interested. For him it was all about the badge of having gone up on 39x25.

Me? I used a triple.

bernithebiker

bahzob wrote:

itboffin wrote:

I've signed up for the Marmotte this year and as well as trying to lose at least 2 stone, I'm getting a triple for sure 52/39/30 for me - I have no shame, I'm old and slow and I want to enjoy the ride, not suffer all the way to the end.

Don't do yourself down. I have finished in overall top 200 of the etape and my gearing of choice would be a triple.

I have overtaken thousands of riders over the years and 99% of them were trying to push too big a gear.

In the same time I have been overtaken by a handful of faster folks and 100% of them were in a gear that they could turn over comfortably at a nice tempo.

Bahzob, are you up for this year's Etape? I'll be in Annecy with a friend from Geneva a couple of days prior. Not sure I can match your pace, but I'll be disappointed if I don't get in the top 500.

bahzob

bernithebiker wrote:

bahzob wrote:

itboffin wrote:

I've signed up for the Marmotte this year and as well as trying to lose at least 2 stone, I'm getting a triple for sure 52/39/30 for me - I have no shame, I'm old and slow and I want to enjoy the ride, not suffer all the way to the end.

Don't do yourself down. I have finished in overall top 200 of the etape and my gearing of choice would be a triple.

I have overtaken thousands of riders over the years and 99% of them were trying to push too big a gear.

In the same time I have been overtaken by a handful of faster folks and 100% of them were in a gear that they could turn over comfortably at a nice tempo.

Bahzob, are you up for this year's Etape? I'll be in Annecy with a friend from Geneva a couple of days prior. Not sure I can match your pace, but I'll be disappointed if I don't get in the top 500.

Sorry but no. Events like the Etape are fun but they are also a bit of a hassle in terms of logistics and competing. Also you can spend several days off but only actually do one of real riding. So this year I will just be doing some fast touring. I may well try to ride the etape route and other tour stages but just for fun and because it makes watching the tour later more interesting.

Good luck with the Etape, hope you hit top 500.

bernithebiker

Fair enough, have fun with that. After the Etape I'll be riding as a guide for 10 days for Ronan Pensec, following the TdF route with 120 customers, so keep your eyes open!

http://ronanpensectravel.com/

spearmint_wino

I was thinking about starting one of the Time-Crunched Training Plan 'century' programs in a few weeks - at the '3 months to go' mark.

So far this year I've been riding as much as the snow / work has allowed, majority of which has been base-buidling (HR Zone 2) and more recently some longer rides with more climbing.

Is it the right sort of program and has anyone here previously used one of these with success for an Etape?

bahzob

The TCTP is a good plan, especially if, like many folks, time is the main limiter in terms of training.

If you follow it then it should produce good measurable gains and prepare you well for the Etape.

The only issues with it are that,
- of necessity, the vast majority of the training is done at a higher intensity than you will be using for the Etape.
- the Etape isn't really a "century" ride, its more like a series of very long intervals (up hills) with some recovery in between (downhills and the flat if you ride in a group)

One of the keys to riding a good Etape is pacing and you need to have an idea of this before you start. This has all sorts of impacts, not just the type of time you will be aiming for but how you ride and what food/drink you will need to have.

The TCTP wont help with pacing as its intervals are too high, it won't be possible to replicate them on the Etape. And the endurance sessions are really too low and unfocussed. The actual climbing pace you will be aiming for is around the "Tempo" one (which has no workouts in the standard plan),

So if following the TCTP for the Etape I would suggest changing the weekend sessions once you are a couple of weeks in and gained some basic fitness.

The book sets these as 2-3 hour endurance rides (with some intervals later on). I would replace these with some focussed training that replicates part of the etape itself.

So on Saturday you could do a virtual ride of the first half of the course, like a 40-50 mile ride with 3 hard "Tempo" efforts with some recovery in between. The effort would be what you want to do on the 3 first climbs for about the time you hope to do them in. The effort needs to be continuous so, contrarily, is best done on the flat unless you live near a big mountain.

And on Sunday you could do the second half of the route which is basically an easy coast for a while then a final long effort "Tempo" to the top. Again this needs to be non-stop so is best done on the flat.

The first couple of these rides should establish a base level in terms of ride time that will improve as you get fitter. 2 weeks or so before the event itself you could try doing a long day's ride and do both days in one. This will confirm your fitness, give you a good feel for pacing and let you check out how much food/drink you need.

spearmint_wino

First of all bahzob, thank you for a very informative and detailed reply, that all makes sense. 8)

On my last ride I was thinking about riding up hills at 'Tempo' pace. I've currently got 'Tempo' pace set up as 75-82% of MHR - I tried on some local Surrey climbs and no way could I keep my HR that low on any of them. Maybe I should be fitter / maybe I should also ride them slower. Probably the former...

I've not got my HR zones set up for TCTP, but will do the CTS field test tonight and amend accordingly.

Easter weekend in the Pennines then a week in Mallorca mid-April so will experiment with pacing / efforts there.

Thanks again.

phreak

Don't forget that many UK climbs are short and steep. Alpine climbs are often longer but shallower. It's tough to train for these kind of climbs by doing UK climbs because the efforts are simply not comparable.

spearmint_wino

phreak wrote:

Don't forget that many UK climbs are short and steep. Alpine climbs are often longer but shallower. It's tough to train for these kind of climbs by doing UK climbs because the efforts are simply not comparable.

Very true, although the Etape's final climb gets fairly steep in places (~15%).

I'm going to try riding Cragg Vale at tempo pace this weekend a few times and see how I fare. Not the Alps but the nearest in terms of climb length I'll get to for a while.

twotyred

I tried on some local Surrey climbs and no way could I keep my HR that low on any of them

Unless the hills were steeper than 10% your gears are probably too high if you can't sustain a tempo pace. Going at tempo pace up a typical short UK hill will feel easy (it won't feel easy after 60 min in the Alps) and is probably below the speed you usually climb that particular hill.

spearmint_wino

twotyred wrote:

Unless the hills were steeper than 10% your gears are probably too high if you can't sustain a tempo pace.

My suspicion is that a) i'm not 100% sure i know what tempo is (see below) and b) i've been riding climbs at a pace I want to push as opposed to trying no matter what to keep HR at tempo. I'll try and be more disciplined on my next decent climb and see. But you could be right and I'm not even man enough to run a 34/25 in the smaller bits of the UK :shock:

Another noob-ish question if I may: most of what I've read has either referred to either tempo or threshold. In a couple of places I've seen tempo and threshold used interchangeably. Are they the same thing i.e. same level of exertion?

phreak

I'm no expert but I've always taken it to be the pace you can sustain for 1 hour, with 1 hour being a decent estimate for your average alpine climb. So work out the pace/hr/power you can sustain for 1 hour, and then train at that level. Whatever you want to call that level is not really important.

twotyred

I've currently got 'Tempo' pace set up as 75-82% of MHR

That's about right. I use Coggan and Allen's definition based on one hour power and if I convert to HR it comes out in pretty good agreement with your zone

I'm no expert but I've always taken it to be the pace you can sustain for 1 hour,

That's your functional threshold power. If you tried to sustain that for every climb in something like the Etape you'd cook yourself. Tempo is more like 85% to 88% of what you can sustain for an hour.

i've been riding climbs at a pace I want to push as opposed to trying no matter what to keep HR at tempo

Yes you probably are especially for hills you are familiar with. Try throttling back a bit and see if your gearing will allow you to spin a comfortable cadence at what should be the top end of your tempo zone. If it won't then its time for 34/28 or smaller. Personally I use 34/32 min for 1000m plus climbs

But you could be right and I'm not even man enough to run a 34/25 in the smaller bits of the UK

Don't think like that. You are certainly man enough to put enough power down for 34/25 to get you over the UK hills you've been riding but probably at a power output you wouldn't be able to sustain for 1hr or more up an alpine climb- the two are completely different challenges. Don't fall for the macho posturing you often find around here when people ask for advice on gear ratios. Never take advice on gearing from anyone unless you know their FTP in watts/kg and you know yours. Otherwise sort it out for yourself and err on the side of caution. There's nothing macho about falling to pieces halfway up an alpine climb because you wanted to brag about doing it on 34/25. You will see on the Etape that lots of the continentals run triples- take a hint they ride big climbs more often than we do.

bernithebiker

twotyred wrote:

Don't think like that. You are certainly man enough to put enough power down for 34/25 to get you over the UK hills you've been riding but probably at a power output you wouldn't be able to sustain for 1hr or more up an alpine climb- the two are completely different challenges. Don't fall for the macho posturing you often find around here when people ask for advice on gear ratios. Never take advice on gearing from anyone unless you know their FTP in watts/kg and you know yours. Otherwise sort it out for yourself and err on the side of caution. There's nothing macho about falling to pieces halfway up an alpine climb because you wanted to brag about doing it on 34/25. You will see on the Etape that lots of the continentals run triples- take a hint they ride big climbs more often than we do.

Good advice.

spearmint_wino

I agree with you too - it might have been a bit of self-deprecating humour not really coming through (the Internet is the bluntest of instruments...) My summer bike's bottom gear is 34/28.

So tempo is ~85% of the pace you can comfortably hold for an hour? Will give it a try this weekend on some longer Pennine drags.

Thanks again everyone, been most helpful to someone who's new to training.

bahzob

Tempo should be more like 85% of the pace you can sustain for your best hours effort.

This zone is also called the "sweetspot" zone because it is the hardest you can work before hitting threshold where things take a step change in terms of getting tougher.

I ride with a power meter so can precisely identify this zone. Still one of the best indicators I am in it is my breathing. When I hit threshold I have to breathe in and out, with my mouth wide open really sucking in air. Every breath counts. At tempo I breathe heavily through my mouth but its more under my control. On long climbs I synchronise my breathing with my cadence, setting a rhythm for both at the bottom of the climb that I try to hold steady to the top.

Don't be too surprised if you cant hold this effort for too long atm. As you get fitter it will get better. As the TCTP book notes the ability to hold tempo can vary. It's one of the critical things that determines who wins events like the tour de france so pros will train for it and be much better than normal riders and be able to sustain tempo for 2 hours or so.

As an example. I am a very good rider in terms of events like the etape. So I will aim to do the long climbs in events like it at around 80% of my best hours pace. But elite riders will push themselves even harder and get into the 90%s or even close to max. I have an example on this here: http://mr-miff-on-tour.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/marmotte-compared-to-best_17.html

In terms of training, you really can't ride any hills at tempo here in the UK. The longest climb in the whole country won't take anything like an hour to complete.

So if you ride up a UK hill, if its going to be any challenge, you have to, by definition, ride it at above threshold pace. That makes hills great for the sort of intervals in the TCTP plan as you can probably find some that take around the time an interval there requires.

But if you want to ride mountains you need to get used to pushing out steady sustained power for far longer duration, Paradoxically the best way to do this is ride on the flat. Hence when I suggested the rides for the weekend the efforts should be done time trial fashion, on as flat a route as possible, keeping power going throughout and never coasting.

ric/rstsport

@ bahzob -- you can ride up lots of hills at tempo/sweetspot/MIET or *lower* intensity in the UK. However, it will depend on what your absolute fitness level is.

The question should be more upon the lines of: "do you need/want to ride at such a 'low' intensity?".

(note, that i used to live in Wales, on the top of a 16% climb. after a while i realised that smashing it back to the house for the final 2-mins wasn't a great thing to do and thus learnt, that you *can* meander gently up these climbs)

ric

bahzob

bernithebiker wrote:

twotyred wrote:

Don't think like that. You are certainly man enough to put enough power down for 34/25 to get you over the UK hills you've been riding but probably at a power output you wouldn't be able to sustain for 1hr or more up an alpine climb- the two are completely different challenges. Don't fall for the macho posturing you often find around here when people ask for advice on gear ratios. Never take advice on gearing from anyone unless you know their FTP in watts/kg and you know yours. Otherwise sort it out for yourself and err on the side of caution. There's nothing macho about falling to pieces halfway up an alpine climb because you wanted to brag about doing it on 34/25. You will see on the Etape that lots of the continentals run triples- take a hint they ride big climbs more often than we do.

Good advice.

Very good advice. A triple is ideal if you are not a pro. It's my gearing of choice and it's a shame that there are not more choices about.

bahzob

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

@ bahzob -- you can ride up lots of hills at tempo/sweetspot/MIET or *lower* intensity in the UK. However, it will depend on what your absolute fitness level is.

The question should be more upon the lines of: "do you need/want to ride at such a 'low' intensity?".

(note, that i used to live in Wales, on the top of a 16% climb. after a while i realised that smashing it back to the house for the final 2-mins wasn't a great thing to do and thus learnt, that you *can* meander gently up these climbs)

ric

?? Dont really understand the point you are making here I'm afraid.

Though ofc I would agree with your note, basic training advice to anyone is always ride a gentle cool down after finishing any training session including high intensity intervals.

ric/rstsport

you said that you have to ride up hills in the UK above threshold. I'm saying that you don't have to. you can bumble up them easily (maybe not all of them).

i then said it may not be a good idea to ride so easy (?). but i'm just saying you can ride up hills at way less than threshold in the uk!

bahzob

Yes ofc you can do the climbs in the UK at less than threshold effort, provided you have the right gearing.

I didn't say you couldn't. What I said was if it is going to be any challenge (and provide any real training benefit) you need to do at above threshold, by definition, since there isn't a climb that I am aware of that will take anything like an hour to complete.

That's the issue with trying to train for the Etape and similar only by doing climbs in the UK. Our climbs are great for interval training, which in turn is great for improving fitness. But they can be misleading in terms of the demands of climbing a real mountain.

imposter2.0

I think you can bimble up any climb with the right gearing / right fitness. Even an alpine col.

spearmint_wino

Ok so tried some longer (than down south) hills today and easily managed to keep the HR down below threshold / 85% MHR, and got tempo pacing sorted I think. The effort level felt familiar as I've done a few interval sessions of 40 mins at this level - it's like a tolerably uncomfortable effort that I could bang out for quite a while if needed.

twotyred

Sounds good. I've heard tempo described a "comfortably uncomfortable" which I think accurately sums it up and which agrees with your feeling.