Training for the Etape

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

Only place I disagree is about not bothering with short steep hills. When you are climbing for >1hr its good to be able to stand on the pedals for a couple of hundred metres or so from time to time to give your bum a rest and to stretch out your back. Short, hard overgeared efforts on hills where you have to stand on the pedals or sprint intervals are good for giving you the strength to do this.

Sorry but I absolutely disagree. Short over geared efforts are the very last thing you should be doing on an event like this. They make you very fatigued very quickly and should be avoided at all costs.

The only time I would ever do close to a sprint interval on an event like this are:
- To catch a passing group/rider going quicker than the one I am in when I know after catching them I will get plenty of time to recover
- To kick through the sharp point of a hairpin when other riders stop me taking the easy line and would baulk me there (and then its just a question of a couple of quick kicks then sitting down again)

I don't disagree about the need to stand up from time to time but this should be done at the same output power as if you are seated, so before standing up you shift down a couple of gears and focus on a relaxed easy style when standing not having to strain every muscle just to turn the pedals over (another reason for wanting as many gears on the back cassette as possible).

That is not to say hill training has no place for an event like this, however not sure I would recommend to someone starting off like the OP.

Longish hills that take 3-6 minutes to climb are good as you can use them for VO2 efforts which will help extend threshold power. However you would do these intervals seated.

Trev The Rev

It is easy to underestimate the power you are putting out when climbing out of the saddle. Up a steep hill, speed drops, so you get out of the saddle, cadence drops, but you are applying much greater force to the pedals, then the next thing you know is you are in oxygen debt and changing gears and sitting, then you realize you have no gears left. Best to get in the right gear and stay sitting and manage your effort. Even for the same power riding out of the saddle uses more energy and heart rate will be a little higher.

I would however do some out of the saddle work on steep hills so you know how to cope if you hit a very steep slope and you have no option other than get out of the saddle. This is as much mental preparation to build confidence as anything else.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

?? For an event like this where the focus is on sustained power just below threshold you definitely should be incorporating 12-30 minute workouts at just above threshold. They are an excellent way to build the power you need in the event and also represent a zone you may well be riding in

I'm not saying one shouldn't be training at that level, just that racing a 10 is not an efficient way to do it. I agree that racing has some benefits that better targeted interval training may not have.

bahzob wrote:

(as is the case in this year's tour, the first climbs should be done around 10TT pace).

Do you mean this year's Etape du tour? How long do you think those climbs would take?

twotyred

Short over geared efforts are the very last thing you should be doing on an event like this. They make you very fatigued very quickly and should be avoided at all costs.

Read my post again that's not what I said. I'm certainly not advocating high intensity efforts half way up a 1000m climb

I don't disagree about the need to stand up from time to time but this should be done at the same output power as if you are seated, so before standing up you shift down a couple of gears and focus on a relaxed easy style when standing not having to strain every muscle just to turn the pedals over

Exactly and short standing over geared efforts and sprints develop the ability to do this as even relaxed turning over of the pedals at your climbing power output when standing takes a bit of muscular development to achieve

mamba80

Bahzob, in your blog you advise a steady start, about 80 to 85 % of FTP for the first climbs (to avoid blowing up)
but here you say go for a 10tt pace - which will be 100% + of FTP :?

twotyred

Strewth doesn't anyone actually read posts before commenting on them? He's advising doing 10TTs for training not going up the Glandon at threshold!

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

the first climbs should be done around 10TT pace

twotyred

The first two short climbs in Etape Acte 1 are around 300 metres and 200 metres height gain so similar to a big hill in the UK and nothing like the 1000m climbs that come later. Personally I'd still be playing myself in then but Bahzob's recommendation to do them at 10TT pace makes sense if you want to get in a fast group as selections will be starting to be made then. He's not recommending you tackle a 1000m monster at 10TT pace.

The effort/HR you should be aiming for on the climbs is just below that you will see on a 25 mile TT

bahzob

mamba80 wrote:

Bahzob, in your blog you advise a steady start, about 80 to 85 % of FTP for the first climbs (to avoid blowing up)
but here you say go for a 10tt pace - which will be 100% + of FTP :?

Yes as noted by others above my comments were about the Marmotte where the first climb is the Glandon.

The Etape this year has two much shorter climbs just after the start with a lot of recovery time after. So they can be done at a more aggressive pace, I'd say around 10TT effort. Indeed think they should be as these will shake out the groups a bit and if you go fast up these you should be able to find a fast group to stick with until the last 2 big climbs.

The last 2 climbs should be done at a more conservative pace, around 25TT effort.

lochindaal

Going back to advising the OP I wouldn't be advising doing 25 or 10TT pace for any of the early climbs. If he has never ridden a large mountain before I would say take it well within your limits and save your energy for the 2 climbs at the end of the Etape when you'll need it.

I assume his goal is to finish and enjoy the day not win it. Having done multiple Etapes, the Marmotte and the Maratona you always see people on the last climb who have just completely run out of energy because they have got their pace wrong, probably from getting too carried away at the beginning.

I also speak from experience when staying with a too fast group on the 2010 Etape through the middle section and spending 3 hours in the medical tent on a drip at the top of Tourmalet after finishing :oops:

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

Only place I disagree is about not bothering with short steep hills. When you are climbing for >1hr its good to be able to stand on the pedals for a couple of hundred metres or so from time to time to give your bum a rest and to stretch out your back. Short, hard overgeared efforts on hills where you have to stand on the pedals or sprint intervals are good for giving you the strength to do this.

Sorry but I did read and really do have to disagree with this, especially viewed from the perspective of someone like the OP who is relatively new to the game.

There are two different ways to ride a bike when standing up:
- Sprint intervals or big gear hard climbs where the emphasis is all about strength and power. You can only sustain these for short periods of time. You never want to do this on an event like the etape (save the couple of exceptions I mentioned)
- Extended climbing, typically when the gradient gets so especially steep so that sitting down becomes uncomfortable/inefficient. The style here is quite different, almost the opposite to sprinting. The best way I have heard to describe it is "dancing on the pedals". Of the current crop of riders Alberto Contador is one of the best exponents of this. You should be able to keep this up for many minutes if you want to. This is the sort of climbing you may want/need to do during an Etape or similar.

The former can be trained for as I thought you suggested with sprint intervals and short overgeared efforts on hills.

This gives exactly the wrong information on how to do the latter. The sensation you want to achieve is keeping the pedals turning around 60-70rpm with a smooth action for as much of the stroke as possible with the least possible effort per stroke, with subtle shifts of body weight helping make progress. The best way to train for these is not short hard efforts but engaging a big gear, preferably on a climb, standing up and focusing on keeping a smooth good technique that you feel you could sustain for ages if needs be.

Related to this: Finding you need to stand up regularly because your backside hurts may be a sign that your bike is not set up properly or you are not pedalling correctly. If you are doing things right most of the weight of your body is taken by your legs not your bum. However this wont happen if
- your saddle is set too low
- you don't apply force to the pedals smoothly through the majority of the pedal stroke.

Tom Dean

The first two climbs in the Etape, ignoring the short downhill in between (which could take 1-2 mins) are ~500m in 10k. I think you would be crazy to attempt this at '10' pace. Then to finish up with two >1000m climbs AT '25' pace? Who can recover well enough to do this? There is plenty of riding in between the big climbs too.

bahzob

lochindaal wrote:

Going back to advising the OP I wouldn't be advising doing 25 or 10TT pace for any of the early climbs. If he has never ridden a large mountain before I would say take it well within your limits and save your energy for the 2 climbs at the end of the Etape when you'll need it.

I assume his goal is to finish and enjoy the day not win it. Having done multiple Etapes, the Marmotte and the Maratona you always see people on the last climb who have just completely run out of energy because they have got their pace wrong, probably from getting too carried away at the beginning.

I also speak from experience when staying with a too fast group on the 2010 Etape through the middle section and spending 3 hours in the medical tent on a drip at the top of Tourmalet after finishing :oops:

Going slow at the start is not without issues. You will end up with worst/slowest riders and have to do more work in the section between the the first couple of climbs and the big 2 at the end. Also when you get to the last 2 climbs there will be lots of traffic, there is no point being fresh there if you can't ride at your own pace.

The aim should be to go up the first climbs as hard has possible while being confident that you will have recovered by the time you next need to put in a big effort.

This sort of gets back to my original recommendation. Yes if you are riding blind then one of the biggest mistakes you can make is to go too hard at the start then fail at the end.

I am not suggesting you do this. I am suggesting you ride events like 10 and 25 TTs because these give you a very good picture of the sort of efforts you are capable of sustaining, what happens to your body when you do them and what sort of recovery you need.

This should give you the information and confidence to strike a happy balance between going too fast or too slow and end up with the best ride you can on the day.

Like I said earlier, if I was riding this years etape and training here my preparation would include rides doing a 10 mile TT, easy ride 20 mins or so then do 2x20-25mile TT with an easy ride break of 20 mins or so between. The efforts (RPE, HR, power etc) of these TTs is pretty much what I would aim to replicate on the day itself. Obviously these may have to change but even so starting with a plan that needs revising is better than starting with no plan at all. (The food needed on a ride like this would also be pretty close to what you need on the day itself as well, though water may vary according to weather).

bernithebiker

I think bahzob's advice is excellent, but I think we need to be clear who is the target market!

I was a top 400 finisher in last year's Etape (despite hyperthermia!) so most of his tips make sense to me, although I would still be wary about taking the 1st climbs too fast, as I would rather be able to smash the final one.

For someone looking to finish comfortably in a reasonable time, I would definitely recommend they take the 1st hour or two nice and easy, in a big group if possible. The final climb is tough enough that if you arrive with excess energy, you can deffo get rid of it there if you want.

And as for UK training, I do think TT efforts are good, as they simulate that constant, no respite effort that a big col gives you.

bahzob

Tom Dean wrote:

The first two climbs in the Etape, ignoring the short downhill in between (which could take 1-2 mins) are ~500m in 10k. I think you would be crazy to attempt this at '10' pace. Then to finish up with two >1000m climbs AT '25' pace? Who can recover well enough to do this? There is plenty of riding in between the big climbs too.

The 2 climbs at the start are 5.4km at 5.8% and 3.6km at 6.2% followed by a long downhill section.

As a starting point effort for short climbs like this should be just above threshold if you have time to recover, so 10TT pace. If I was riding this event I would certainly be aiming to do 10TT power for both climbs.

The last 2 climbs are each around the equivalent of doing a 25TT. FWIW I would aim to do these at around 75-80% of FTP.

Whatever: the best planning for these is to do training rides with a warmup > 10TT > ride easy 20-30 mins > 25TT > ride easy 20 mins >25 TT. The key point is that the TTs are the best way to simulate the efforts of that the climbs will require, assuming you don't have access to real mountains to train on.

I am not saying that you will be able to do all the TTs at the same pace as if you were doing them fresh.

There will ofc be a trade off, some riders may find they can ride the 10 at near race pace and still be able to put in 2 good 25s (the second 25 will be the acid test). Others wont. Each will have to adapt as needs be.

The efforts of these TTs will inform you about what efforts to make the actual climbs on. What you can actually achieve will depend ofc on your fitness levels. As my earlier post showed one thing that marks out good riders from bad is that good ones can ride at higher relative intensities and recover more quickly than bad ones.

Tom Dean

bahzob wrote:

The last 2 climbs are each around the equivalent of doing a 25TT. FWIW I would aim to do these at around 75-80% of FTP.

Nowhere near 25 pace, in other words.

twotyred

This gives exactly the wrong information on how to do the latter. The sensation you want to achieve is keeping the pedals turning around 60-70rpm with a smooth action for as much of the stroke as possible with the least possible effort per stroke, with subtle shifts of body weight helping make progress. The best way to train for these is not short hard efforts but engaging a big gear, preferably on a climb, standing up and focusing on keeping a smooth good technique that you feel you could sustain for ages if needs be.

All I know is that high geared efforts improve my strength and help me do this.

mamba80

twotyred wrote:

Strewth doesn't anyone actually read posts before commenting on them? He's advising doing 10TTs for training not going up the Glandon at threshold!

Im sorry but he is.......So yes i did read his posts/blog ..throughly, and there are major differences in the blog and the posts on here. So i suggest you re read both.
The Blog i tend to agree with, the argument on 10/25tt pace is possibly incorrect but im open to argument, which is why i didnt rubbish his suggestion.

twotyred

I have read his blog. The only time he suggests doing 10TT pace is up shorter climbs.

56mph

bernithebiker wrote:

And as for UK training, I do think TT efforts are good, as they simulate that constant, no respite effort that a big col gives you.

Spot on. I agree that you need to train for a 'constant no respite effort' for up to two hours. I've the experience of completing ten Etapes now and when I started doing them I naively thought that, given it is a climbing event, the best thing to do to train would be to go out there and climb, climb, climb...as I live in London that would typically mean the short but typically sharp ascents near here in the Chilterns or the Downs. I still do these but they aren't so much the only focus of my training...since I haven't been organised enough to do real time-trialling I try to get in some long flat rides ideally into a headwind, which is always easy to find somewhere in the UK!

My other advice for newbies who aim to do the Etape is that while building the power you really must get that weight down...the rule of thumb for real climbers, in old money, is two pounds for every inch of height. At my height of 5'7'' that equals 134lbs or 61kg!! Something to aim for given I am currently 68kg (but did get down to 63kg for last summer).....

ric/rstsport

fyi, 2lb for every inch of height is not a rule of thumb anyone should bother with. While, it is important for long Alpine type climbs to have an optimum mass, 2lbs per inch isn't a rule of thumb that stacks up, or indeed is adhered to by people who ride events like the Tour de France. For e.g., i'm a small to medium frame person and i'd have to have less than 0% body fat to get down to 2lb per inch. That obviously, isn't possible!

Ric

56mph

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

fyi, 2lb for every inch of height is not a rule of thumb anyone should bother with. While, it is important for long Alpine type climbs to have an optimum mass, 2lbs per inch isn't a rule of thumb that stacks up, or indeed is adhered to by people who ride events like the Tour de France. For e.g., i'm a small to medium frame person and i'd have to have less than 0% body fat to get down to 2lb per inch. That obviously, isn't possible!

Ric

I think it's tough for a non-professional cyclist but I just calculated the relevant ratios for three pros using the heights and weights given on the Sky team website and converting them into imperial measurements.

Here are the answers in lbs per inch:

Wiggins - 2.03
Froome - 2.08
Porte - 2.02

ric/rstsport

It's _really_ not worth taking the discussion any further or even suggesting it's a useful metric, because it isn't.

56mph

The important point I wanted to make for those who are trying an Etape for the first time is that getting rid of surplus weight, i.e. largely fat but also some upper body muscle, is vital for doing well on a bike in the real mountains. Every year in the start pen at the Etape I see some riders around me who I can tell immediately are going to end up in the broom wagon and probably have a miserable day as a result. Given where we are in the year there is still time through a good diet and lots of riding on the bike to make a big difference.
Obviously it is sustained power to weight which will get you up the climbs. Nobody trains with the sole goal of getting their weight down otherwise you'd just go on a Victoria Beckham-type starvation diet and leave it at that. But I observed that those who do exceedingly well, such as the best professional climbers, have a body composition around the 2lbs per inch level and that this remains something to aim towards although unacheivable for most of us, including myself.

bernithebiker

Would have to agree that generally speaking the best climbers are slight / slim build, whereas the bigger set, thick boned, muscley guy is better at TT's and long turns at the front.

I'm 5'8 (68 inches) and 63kg (139lbs) which is 2.04, and climbing is by far my strongest area on the bike, and I am crap into a headwind on the flat.

But clearly there will be pro riders up in the 2.3 to 2.5+ range who can climb faster than me, so it's only a rough guide, albeit useful for the amateur / beginner cyclist.

ric/rstsport

bernithebiker wrote:

Would have to agree that generally speaking the best climbers are slight / slim build, whereas the bigger set, thick boned, muscley guy is better at TT's and long turns at the front.

I'm 5'8 (68 inches) and 63kg (139lbs) which is 2.04, and climbing is by far my strongest area on the bike, and I am crap into a headwind on the flat.

But clearly there will be pro riders up in the 2.3 to 2.5+ range who can climb faster than me, so it's only a rough guide, albeit useful for the amateur / beginner cyclist.

Cancellera is almost 2.5 using the metric concerned. i'd be surprised if anyone riding the Etape (etc) with the exception of e.g. a Pro Tour rider not doing the TdF would be faster than Cancellera.

No one has argued that being lightweight isn't an advantage on long climbs, it probably is. However, the most important thing is to have a higher power to mass ratio. A height divided mass metric is (and there's no polite way of putting this) utter tosh. It's an extremely poor proxy (and so poor that it's *useless*) for power to mass ratio.

Lastly, even people that look deathly thin (e.g. Wiggins) doesn't make the metric (he's above it). Forget it. Concentrate on improving your sustainable power output while perhaps looking to reduce your mass (but 2.0 is daft - thankfully, there's very few people who can be influenced by such a metric as presumably most of the world is metricated!).

There's enough people with anorexia in cycling without adding to it.

Ric

inseine

One thing that people sometimes underprepare for is the long slogs at low cadences. Even with a compact you probably won't be spinning away. This is where the 25TTs don't prepare you, unless you deliberately over gear for them.
Riding hour long stints at a hardish effort (less than FTP) in a slightly too high gear will serve you well IMO.

bernithebiker

inseine wrote:

One thing that people sometimes underprepare for is the long slogs at low cadences. Even with a compact you probably won't be spinning away. This is where the 25TTs don't prepare you, unless you deliberately over gear for them.
Riding hour long stints at a hardish effort (less than FTP) in a slightly too high gear will serve you well IMO.

True, but you can limit this by going as low as you can - I use 34 front, and 28-11 rear. But even then, on a 10% hill, your cadence may well be lower than normal.

My guess is that a good 30% of Etape riders would be better off with a triple, but that probably less than 5% will actually be using one..........

manxshred

I have just purchased a WiFli kit for my SRAM equipped bike for the Marmotte.
I'm going to run a 34-32 lowest gear and personally think people are crazy to run any less, unless you are very strong (ie going for sub 9 hour)

56mph

the most important thing is to have a higher power to mass ratio

Agree 100% with you there but..

Cancellera is almost 2.5 using the metric concerned

.
I was talking about the top professional climbers...

Lastly, even people that look deathly thin (e.g. Wiggins) doesn't make the metric(he's above it).

Not true, at 2.03 he's spot on if rounded to the nearest decimal space.

I just checked the equivalent ratios for the ten best riders on the Tour last year in the KOM classification and average is 2.04 with a tight range from 1.9 to 2.2. I didn't claim it's as scientific as measured power to weight. It's still a valid rule of thumb for the very best climbers in the world.