Bike Brand Myopia?

Mikey23

Bikes are pretty much all the same at the end of the day aren't they?
Mines a giant because my LBS sells them and supports them. My next will possibly be a giant because my LBS sells them and supports them. If my LBS changed to another brand I would by that because my LBS sells them and supports them

Over and above that, conversations about ride, stiffness, geometry etc seem to me to be little but hot air from those who want to sell us new product or have nothing better to do than talk about it endlessly on forums such as this

Merry christmas

iPete

Mikey23 wrote:

Bikes are pretty much all the same at the end of the day aren't they?
Mines a giant because my LBS sells them and supports them. My next will possibly be a giant because my LBS sells them and supports them. If my LBS changed to another brand I would by that because my LBS sells them and supports them

Over and above that, conversations about ride, stiffness, geometry etc seem to me to be little but hot air from those who want to sell us new product or have nothing better to do than talk about it endlessly on forums such as this

Merry christmas

I used to think this until I rode something with aggressive geometry and a stiff frame, my then Allez was stripped down and basically binned shortly after.

Mikey23

Note to self... Don't post after drinking sherry!

LegendLust

MountainMonster wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Im intrigued by the italian bikes and just love Casati and Ciocc products. Big snag is they are made in italy with racers in mind and that means long toptubes. With me being a short@rse with short arms I am never going to fit on a Casati or Ciocc and id bet my shirt that I dont have the flexibility neither.................drop dead gorgeous bikes though.

Well that's what custom, made-to-measure bikes are for. You could have a beautiful Legend fit you perfectly...

Are you literally only interested in Legend? Everything is about Legend.....

Well done Miss Marple

MountainMonster

LegendLust wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Im intrigued by the italian bikes and just love Casati and Ciocc products. Big snag is they are made in italy with racers in mind and that means long toptubes. With me being a short@rse with short arms I am never going to fit on a Casati or Ciocc and id bet my shirt that I dont have the flexibility neither.................drop dead gorgeous bikes though.

Well that's what custom, made-to-measure bikes are for. You could have a beautiful Legend fit you perfectly...

Are you literally only interested in Legend? Everything is about Legend.....

Well done Miss Marple

Thanks. Mum was proud too

xhacker

I like the golf anallergy and I'll offer another.....
I've had motorcycles for many years. Love sports bikes, they're just beautiful but are actually the most impractical mode of transport for British roads known to man.
Which bike sells biggest in Britain? That's right, the sports bike? Where's the sense in that?
Not one person over the age of 30 buying their first sports bike will ever win a single race in Motogp or even BSB. Not only that, they would struggle in a club race to the point of embarrassment.
My advice on buying a new bike, is listen to your body when you test ride it. Bear in mind what it's going to be used for. Are you going to race it or do a few miles as and when you get the time? Are you cycling to work? How much money do have or you really want to spend?
Ignore the snobs with extremely small penises who can't get a girlfriend, whom are clearly blinded by the bullshit rhetoric that's produced by every manufacturer of boys toys. What's in a name anyway?
Right I'm off to have a ride on my most unsuitable sportsbike and make an appointment with my chiropractor on my return ;-)
Merry Christmas!

d87heaven

I'll offer another analogy from the exciting world of fishing......' 90% of fishing equipment is made to catch anglers not fish'.

rolf_f

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

Depends what you mean by great. Ultimately, you can fool most people into believing stuff if you spend enough money on the advertising. For example, no matter how unreliable, poorly warranted and sweatshop built they are, people like Apple stuff because the marketing is excellent (and the product looks the part); the brand is certainly great, the product dubious and the company pretty terrible. And people do believe that Pinarellos are made in Italy (eg there is no mention of foreign manufacture on the Pinarello site that I can find though to be fair, the company history stops in 1997 ). On the other hand, at least there sees to be a bit more substance behind Cervelo and Giant.

LegendLust

Rolf F wrote:

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

Depends what you mean by great. Ultimately, you can fool most people into believing stuff if you spend enough money on the advertising. For example, no matter how unreliable, poorly warranted and sweatshop built they are, people like Apple stuff because the marketing is excellent (and the product looks the part); the brand is certainly great, the product dubious and the company pretty terrible. And people do believe that Pinarellos are made in Italy (eg there is no mention of foreign manufacture on the Pinarello site that I can find though to be fair, the company history stops in 1997 ). On the other hand, at least there sees to be a bit more substance behind Cervelo and Giant.

What is dubious about Apple product? Great brands don't stand the test of time if their product or service isn't up to scratch.

dynamicbrick

LegendLust wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

Depends what you mean by great. Ultimately, you can fool most people into believing stuff if you spend enough money on the advertising. For example, no matter how unreliable, poorly warranted and sweatshop built they are, people like Apple stuff because the marketing is excellent (and the product looks the part); the brand is certainly great, the product dubious and the company pretty terrible. And people do believe that Pinarellos are made in Italy (eg there is no mention of foreign manufacture on the Pinarello site that I can find though to be fair, the company history stops in 1997 ). On the other hand, at least there sees to be a bit more substance behind Cervelo and Giant.

What is dubious about Apple product? Great brands don't stand the test of time if their product or service isn't up to scratch.

Not so much dubiousness, more that there's nothing they make that someone else doesn't make which is faster/cheaper/better, or a combination of the three.

Apple sell well primarily because they're a lifestyle statement - in the exact same way that 95% of BMW drivers couldn't tell you which end was driven, or why, the vast majority of Apple owners couldn't really tell you what's great about their phone, tablet, or MP3 player except that it's an Apple and cool.

Bikes very much fall into the category of brand over substance - fundamentally they're all two triangles, two hoops, and a few other bits to enable you to get from point A to point B in an efficient manner. Some people subscribe to the logic of function first and will merrily hack around on their 20 year old Dawes, whilst others will buy into the whole brand thing and buy purely because it's made by a certain firm. Most of us sit somewhere between the two.

So yes, brand myopia isn't unusual or wrong - it's individual choice, and it's what cycling means to you. If you're wrapped up in the history of the sport, or appreciate the artisan nature of the bespoke builders, then there's nothing wrong in ignoring everything else.

I'm exactly the same with my suits and shirts - I have a tailor I've been using for years, appreciate the bespoke workmanship and exclusivity, and get a sense of satisfaction from spending a lot of money on stuff which serves the primary function of keeping me warm. Other people will spend £50 in Asda.

Bikes - I like a nice bike, certainly nicer than what most people will ever own in their lifetime. I'm not hung up particularly on who makes it (or indeed where it's made), as long as it looks good, goes good, and has good kit I'm happy. However, the snobbery (or myopia if you prefer) means I won't be getting a Boardman or Carrera any time soon.

Bozman

If you appreciate and can afford the finer things in life....... Buy them!
Bespoke suit, Superbike, Canon 1Ds mark..., you do tend to get what you pay for, but if you buy a £1500 boardman it'll still do the same job as a £10:000 Parlee.
Just enjoy what you have.

neeb

Bozman wrote:

you do tend to get what you pay for,

I think with bikes this is half true. There are pretty big differences between frames, but there is only a loose correlation between price and quality. The more you pay, the more likely you are to get a good frame, but you can easily pay quite a lot for a rubbish frame, or not so much for a really good one.

Mass production vs. bespoke is an interesting one. The big Taiwanese companies are the experts in mass producing frames, that's why the famous brands use them. Well, that and the fact it is cheaper to make them there, but that's why they have become the experts, it's a chicken-and-egg thing. A mass produced frame may not have the old-world appeal of a bespoke one, but it benefits from a lot of research and development, so the end product might be better than a one-off.

The main reason I see for getting something hand-crafted from a small company is if you need custom sizing/geometry, or if you want a steel or titanium frame (with these materials the cost of an individual frame is more skewed towards the production costs of a single frame than it is towards R&D).

smoggysteve

I look for 3 things in a bike
1. Is it comfortable
2. Is It light and stiff
3. Does it look good

I don't care if my bikes frame was built in Italy. Is Italian workmanship better? Are Ferrari the most reliable cars on the road? End of the day, regardless on where my frame was made, the bits that make it go are certainly not. Even if you want Campagnolo , they could still be Romanian made. Tyres could be made anywhere, wheels unless hand built again could be anywhere. I prefer Italian bikes not because of where it may or may not have been made, but the designs for me just look so much better (Just my opinion). Will a Trek or a Felt get the same looks from others as a Basso or a Cioc or a Bianchi?

neeb

SmoggySteve wrote:

I prefer Italian bikes not because of where it may or may not have been made, but the designs for me just look so much better (Just my opinion). Will a Trek or a Felt get the same looks from others as a Basso or a Cioc or a Bianchi?

How much of that is due to conditioning, however (it looks good because the fact that it is Italian and/or the brand has a certain image alters the way you and others see it), and how much is really objective (it looks good because the design is aesthetically superior irrespective of the brand associations)? Are you confident you can tell the difference? I not 100% sure that I can.

MountainMonster

At the end of the day though, you still like it more than another frame, so it doesn't really matter why you like it. If it makes you happy, buy it, if not, don't.

smoggysteve

I am not going to be winning a tour title any time soon so while I ride around the countryside I have no need for cutting edge tech or the lightest stiffest frame and neither do 99.9% of the people who read this. So what so I have to base my bike buying on? Yes I want the best bike I can afford and If I can get a better setup for my cash I will go for a good deal, but its still only going to be something I ride a few days a week, maybe in the odd sportive so I want it more than anything else to be something I like the look of and something I desire. And others desire. And the Italian marques just have that edge. Bianchi's which I ride have history. They look good and they ride beautifully. I felt may ride like a dream but it is a methodical boring looking thing. They even only seem to come in grey or mainly black, what does that say? boring but functional. I want more than that. I want something that every time I go on the cellar to get ready to ride it I spend a second or two just looking at it and admiring its curves.

alanparsons

I did not suffer Myopia but brand blindness
After deciding to purchase a bike on the C2W scheme I started my research. A quick look around the bike shops of Norwich was followed buy surveying the bike racks in the City too.
This showed me that nearly half the proper road bikes I saw were Specalized or Trek.
This makes me think these are popular for two reasons, good quality/value and availability.
There are 5 bike shops within the city selling Specalized and 3 selling Trek.
Then down came my blinkers and I disregarded both as I wanted something different, simply for indivduality and not picking up the wrong bike from the rack!
Further internet research revealed that at my price point (£800-900) the spec of bikes was pretty much identical.
Shimano Sora/Tiagra or Camp Xenon/Veloce. Tried Camp did not like shift style.
Various own brand wheels that seem to be made buy a company called Jalco.
In house finishing kits (probably all made in the same factory and then branded).
Search criteria was Price,Shimano,looks and something different.
I started my search online looking at old shool brands I know from watching bike racing for 20 years.
Bianchi- Love them ( but mate has one and we will ride together and do not want to look like tweedle dumb and tweedle dee)
Pinarello-Expensive local dealer not very helpful.
Peugeot-No local dealer.
Colnago-Same unhelpful dealer.
Wilier-LOVE
Bought Wilier.
Frame is made in Taiwan,wheels made by Jalco finishing kit is WARP. None of this matters, it all serves a purpose and bits can be replaced cheaply or upgraded as required.
I've been riding it for 3 months now and love it, also it's the only Wilier I have seen on the road.
So just buy what YOU like and enjoy riding it.

dynamicbrick

Out of interest, what Wilier did you get for £800?

I've got £1000 to spend on the C2W scheme, and got stuck between a Cube Peloton (good value) and a Trek Madone 2.1 (because I own and like my Treks). Nothing else really tweaks my interest, but a Wilier would.

Edit - found it, a Montegrappa I presume?

smoggysteve

Here is a good example of how expensive the UK is.

This is a German shop (English spoken) that will deliver to the UK that I bought my last two bikes from. They deliver to UK, albeit for around £50 which is nothing on top of a grand plus bike. http://www.bianchistore.de/ .Look at the prices in the outlet section. (Road Bikes are RENNRAD for non German speakers) I got a Sempre with Veloce. Only drama as with most Bianchis was the wheels are a bit rubbish. But even with all that, I have a Carbon frame thats the buisiness and Its future proof for adding better kit on it if I so wish. Now for the of around €1400 - €1500 price, Tell me a Trek or a Specialized for a grand in your LBS is considered value.

alanparsons

dynamicbrick wrote:

Out of interest, what Wilier did you get for £800?

I've got £1000 to spend on the C2W scheme, and got stuck between a Cube Peloton (good value) and a Trek Madone 2.1 (because I own and like my Treks). Nothing else really tweaks my interest, but a Wilier would.

Edit - found it, a Montegrappa I presume?

Yes I have a Montegrappa with 2013 Sora, they have droped Campag on the Monte next year and now offer 105 for £900.

Trikeman

I find that no 'bike off the rack' fits my likes or requirements, hence I have always built to my own spec. When I have looked for bikes from/in shops they never have 'one' bike that I would want - short of a combination of several of the bikes on show there. I have seen very close bikes to my liking, only they cost mahoosive dollar but still I would want to change somethings - seen as upgrading to get it as I like them.

I have a real 'draw' towards Specialized frames (due to easy to get new and SH, reliable and decent VFM) and Colnago frames (usually well kept bought SH) then my favorite wheelsets (again easy to get new and SH) and my favourite drives, brakes, bars etc.

The problem is to have a bike as I would want it I would have to commission a full-up build that ends up prohibitive due to cost - however, I select the frame, I know is right for me, then the kit I want and away I go, build it myself. That way I get what I want, with what I want and I know it's right too.

You don't half get some satisfaction from doing it yourself also. I understand that not everyone wants/can/have time to build thier own bikes, but it's what I am into.

Regards,

Trikeman.

mallott

My God listen to you lot go on!
Dynamicbrick, a bicycle is 2 triangles and 2 hoops. Yup, just like a painting is just canvas and oil? Just like wine is alcoholic grape juice? A car is just 4 wheels and an engine?
You know, a human being is just 23 pairs of chromosomes, if you want to ride around on the Anne widecombe of the bike world, that's fine. I like the bikes that stir something inside, it will probably cost more, (the prettier things in life tend to do that!) But that is my choice.

mallott

Woops double post.

dynamicbrick

mallott wrote:

My God listen to you lot go on!
Dynamicbrick, a bicycle is 2 triangles and 2 hoops. Yup, just like a painting is just canvas and oil? Just like wine is alcoholic grape juice? A car is just 4 wheels and an engine?
You know, a human being is just 23 pairs of chromosomes, if you want to ride around on the Anne widecombe of the bike world, that's fine. I like the bikes that stir something inside, it will probably cost more, (the prettier things in life tend to do that!) But that is my choice.

Did you actually read my post, or did your indignation at that statement cause you to go straight to hitting the reply button? (Although you sort of reiterated my point by saying you'd not buy the Ann Widdecombe version)

My point being a bike is a bike - Same applies to cars, computers vis-a-vis the Apple, phones, and so on.

Some people see it thus, and will just buy whatever fulfills the basic necessity - hence the existence of the Ford Fiesta, Blue Nun, and Ikea. Others place greater importance of owning or using the finest things humankind can hammer together; hence the existence of Pagani, Apple, and Savile Row.

rodgers73

First bike I bought was a Spesh Secteur that a bloke at work told me was a good deal in the sale at Evans. I've ridden it loads and covered some huge distances on it over the last 3 years. Never even got on it before buying it.

I've ridden a Madone and a CAAD10 since then and found both of them to be good rides but my next bike will be a Spesh come what may. Probably a mid range Roubaix. Why mess around trying a different brand with different geometry etc when what I have works brilliantly? I guess I do have some brand myopia but it's at least backed up with some "science".

Wouldn't buy a Trek though due to the LA connection and just because I think it's a naff name. All the Italian stuff seems a bit overdone - I,d rather rely on a huge company's R&D than hope that the old fella who made my frame had had his eyes tested rrecently!

smoggysteve

removed