Bike Brand Myopia?

Bozman

I happen to have owned 3 Treks, a 5.2 madone, a 1.7 and a 1500slr. The later two were winter bikes, on the other hand the Madone was one of my first big spends. The best out of the 3 Treks was the 1500slr which was a cracking bike for the price, the Madone was just a waste of money with a poor spec and it was just an overhyped bike.
I wouldn't buy a Madone again but after riding a friends Boardman I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Boardman.

The likes of Focus, Canyon and Cube are showing the mass produced brands what spec you should get.

gaspode

I really struggle to get excited by any 'modern' brands - probably why I ride a 28 year-old Mercian......

charlie_potatoes

I love the Italian bikes. They hit the spot for me but it's difficult (impossible?) to get any value for money.

The American bikes don't do it for me but I am antiseptic so a little biased. Again I don't see any value for money.

I think the German bikes are the ones at the moment. Lightweight with great spec and a decent price.

Boardman I think is a great looking bike with a good spec. The two that I have ridden were great and If my budget was up to £1500 then they would be on the shortlist.

Above £1500 the Canyon is my choice. 8)


That's my general perception for what it's worth.

zx6man

As Any bike would do what I need it to

I go for how it looks first (that includes if it "looks" like it will break my back in too racier position). Shame how the more expensive bikes mostly seem to look better....

iPete

It's a bit like buying a car, most people are happy with a ford mondeo but many people want something a little different. Actually it's a bit like picking a woman, looks first, ride later...

Trek, Specialized, giant etc are generally a bit boring IMO, especially Madones*.

trolololol

Pross

Why do some people insist on romanticising Bianchi when they are effectively the Italian equivalent of the (old UK based) Raleigh? They are a mass produced bike company who make everything from city bikes to top end road bikes but because they have an Italian name people talk about them as though they are all individual, hand made, works of art. I can see the attraction of the custom built Italian steel frames of the past (and present) but there are few manufacturers making custom carbon bikes (if money were no object I'd be giving Viner a shout!). I haven't got anything against Bianchi but I can't help thinking people are seduced simply by the Italian name.

kingofthetailwind

I have a French bike, with an Italian built frame, that cost £300. :-)

dynamicbrick

Pross wrote:

Why do some people insist on romanticising Bianchi when they are effectively the Italian equivalent of the (old UK based) Raleigh? They are a mass produced bike company who make everything from city bikes to top end road bikes but because they have an Italian name people talk about them as though they are all individual, hand made, works of art. I can see the attraction of the custom built Italian steel frames of the past (and present) but there are few manufacturers making custom carbon bikes (if money were no object I'd be giving Viner a shout!). I haven't got anything against Bianchi but I can't help thinking people are seduced simply by the Italian name.

Oh, you're gonna burn for that one!

At some point in the next couple of weeks my cycle2work vouchers arrive. I've been over and over the specs of the £1000 bikes, and to be frank it's marginal differences - certainly nothing I'd notice between the likes of Cube, Trek, Giant, Cannondale. The only clearly higher spec is the Carrera, having as it does a carbon frame.

Which has led me to actually think about a Raleigh, on the basis of it being so utterly uncool and because it'd get right up the nose of the brand snobs.

rolf_f

Pross wrote:

Why do some people insist on romanticising Bianchi when they are effectively the Italian equivalent of the (old UK based) Raleigh? They are a mass produced bike company who make everything from city bikes to top end road bikes but because they have an Italian name people talk about them as though they are all individual, hand made, works of art. I can see the attraction of the custom built Italian steel frames of the past (and present) but there are few manufacturers making custom carbon bikes (if money were no object I'd be giving Viner a shout!). I haven't got anything against Bianchi but I can't help thinking people are seduced simply by the Italian name.

Of course they are. Even now there is still a glamour to Europe though nothing compared to what it had in the 50s and 60s. But that glamour is entirely based on the rarity of getting there in those times. Similarly, Bianchi has a higher image here than it will in Italy.

And in Germany, Mercedes are the company that make the taxi cabs

It's just human nature and perfectly OK! Of course, in the case of Bianchi, as far as I am aware they do at least, unlike Pinarello, make some of their bikes in Italy still! To me that does give the brand a cachet that Pinarello can't quite match.

Monty Dog

There are only a handful of brands I'd consider to be genuine innovators or with true heritage - the problem is that most folks can't make their way past the marketing rubbish to make an objective assessment of what is good or bad - as you're mainly talking about a pile of bits made in a big shed in China. The paradox is things like Giant makes most of Trek's frames and Specialized makes diddly - they're purely a marketing operation who sub-contract manufacture. If you want value, go for the likes of Ribble or Planet-X. There's nothing wrong with Boardmans except for the monkeys who put them together.

arthur_scrimshaw

Something must be rattling his cage, he's removed his avatar and two of the items in his signature have gone, maybe his 'wife' isn't buying him the Garmin and he's not buying the Mavic wheels anymore? :roll:

alihisgreat

Monty Dog wrote:

There are only a handful of brands I'd consider to be genuine innovators or with true heritage - the problem is that most folks can't make their way past the marketing rubbish to make an objective assessment of what is good or bad - as you're mainly talking about a pile of bits made in a big shed in China. The paradox is things like Giant makes most of Trek's frames and Specialized makes diddly - they're purely a marketing operation who sub-contract manufacture. If you want value, go for the likes of Ribble or Planet-X. There's nothing wrong with Boardmans except for the monkeys who put them together.

Lets hear your list then! Its no fun if we can't name names and have a good old argument about what's cool and what's not!

My current 'In favour' brands that I'd be seen riding:

Pinarello -> I just love the Dogma as long as it isn't in the boring sky colours
Focus -> Been following cyclo-cross and the Rapha-Focus team and the bikes look awesome
Cannondale -> brand with some 'merican pedigree and I like what they do with the Caad bikes
Giant -> My Defy 1 is superb
Parlee -> Some of the nicest custom bikes I've seen

I'd probably not have much trouble being persuaded onto some other boutique brands like Calfree (An American guy in the Uni club has one and its stunning)

Pross

Money no object I would get a custom built Viner with Super Record, I'd also have a hand built steel frame but not sure where from.

I'd also settle for a Wilier Zero 7 or a Parlee Z1 though.

Coach H

Pross wrote:

Money no object I would get a custom built Viner with Super Record, I'd also have a hand built steel frame but not sure where from.

I'd also settle for a Wilier Zero 7 or a Parlee Z1 though.

I thought I had picked up somewhere that Viner had gone under?

Monty Dog

Ooh, just to keep the debate going, I'd give a big up to guys like:

DeRosa - haven't sold-out (unlike Pinarello)
Sacha White - Vanilla and Speedvagen
Calfee - one of the few genuine carbon innovators
Pegoretti, Tomassini, Milani and Pelizzoli - craftsmanship over marketing hype anyday
Colnago - love them or hate them, have made some of the finest bikes of their era - C40/C50/C59
Ritchey - P-series and Swiss Cross - steel is real
Giant - the original TCR set a precedent

On the other hand (where it gets controversial):
Trek - for destroying the innovation of guys like Gary Fisher, Gary Klein, Greg Lemond and Keith Bontranger, being all-round corporate kn*bs
Pinarello - for turning a classic Italian brand into the fugliest kit going
Cervelo - for making fat-dentists belive that £3k Chinese-built carbon frames have character and soul
Bianchi - Chinese-made, Swedish-owned kit of dubious quality trading on 'Italian' heritage they don't own
Litespeed and ABG - more corporate to$$ers
plus anyone who buys an open-mould frame from China, tries to create a phoney-brand and sell it for a premium

rolf_f

Monty Dog wrote:

Ooh, just to keep the debate going, I'd give a big up to guys like:

DeRosa - haven't sold-out (unlike Pinarello)
Sacha White - Vanilla and Speedvagen
Calfee - one of the few genuine carbon innovators
Pegoretti, Tomassini, Milani and Pelizzoli - craftsmanship over marketing hype anyday
Colnago - love them or hate them, have made some of the finest bikes of their era - C40/C50/C59
Ritchey - P-series and Swiss Cross - steel is real
Giant - the original TCR set a precedent

On the other hand (where it gets controversial):
Trek - for destroying the innovation of guys like Gary Fisher, Gary Klein, Greg Lemond and Keith Bontranger, being all-round corporate kn*bs
Pinarello - for turning a classic Italian brand into the fugliest kit going
Cervelo - for making fat-dentists belive that £3k Chinese-built carbon frames have character and soul
Bianchi - Chinese-made, Swedish-owned kit of dubious quality trading on 'Italian' heritage they don't own
Litespeed and ABG - more corporate to$$ers
plus anyone who buys an open-mould frame from China, tries to create a phoney-brand and sell it for a premium

Don't you like the French folk?! And are De Rosa really still that good? There's a lot of generic Taiwanese carbon in that brand.

Pross

Coach H wrote:

Pross wrote:

Money no object I would get a custom built Viner with Super Record, I'd also have a hand built steel frame but not sure where from.

I'd also settle for a Wilier Zero 7 or a Parlee Z1 though.

I thought I had picked up somewhere that Viner had gone under?

Don't think so, website still seems active :?

http://www.vinerbikes.com/

TOM14S

Money no object...
Call me cheep but I'd have this.
http://cyclingweekly.media.ipcdigital.c ... PRO-05.JPG
Makes me do a little sex wee. :oops:

greasedscotsman

Monty Dog wrote:

Ooh, just to keep the debate going, I'd give a big up to guys like:

DeRosa - haven't sold-out (unlike Pinarello)
Sacha White - Vanilla and Speedvagen
Calfee - one of the few genuine carbon innovators
Pegoretti, Tomassini, Milani and Pelizzoli - craftsmanship over marketing hype anyday
Colnago - love them or hate them, have made some of the finest bikes of their era - C40/C50/C59
Ritchey - P-series and Swiss Cross - steel is real
Giant - the original TCR set a precedent

On the other hand (where it gets controversial):
Trek - for destroying the innovation of guys like Gary Fisher, Gary Klein, Greg Lemond and Keith Bontranger, being all-round corporate kn*bs
Pinarello - for turning a classic Italian brand into the fugliest kit going
Cervelo - for making fat-dentists belive that £3k Chinese-built carbon frames have character and soul
Bianchi - Chinese-made, Swedish-owned kit of dubious quality trading on 'Italian' heritage they don't own
Litespeed and ABG - more corporate to$$ers
plus anyone who buys an open-mould frame from China, tries to create a phoney-brand and sell it for a premium

Don't really see why De Rosa haven't sold out. Isn't their R838 an open mould frame?
Isn't the Giant TCR a copy of a Dave Lloyd Concept 90?
As much as I like Greg Lemond as a pro cyclist, I'm not sure of any of his bikes that are innovative. Can you give an example?
And I don't think Cervelo have ever marketed themselves as making bikes that have soul or character. If you look at their website, it seems more about engineering, design and technology to me. If mamils and fat dentists talk about soul or character, (which is pretty stupid thing in relation to a bike) that's hardly Cervelos fault.

greasedscotsman

Pross wrote:

Don't think so, website still seems active :?

http://www.vinerbikes.com/

viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12876109&hilit=viner

iPete

Cinelli, any romance left behind the name and Columbus branded carbon?

Pross

greasedscotsman wrote:

Pross wrote:

Don't think so, website still seems active :?

http://www.vinerbikes.com/

viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12876109&hilit=viner

Hadn't heard that. Cheers, I will now be ordering a Legend with Super Record EPS tomorrow once I have official confirmation that I have indeed won the Euro Millions. I just need to decide if I do it before or after visiting the Aston showroom

neeb

I'm fussy about geometry and sizing and increasingly find I'm restricted to a rather narrow range of genuinely well-fitting options when looking at frames. I need a fairly small saddle setback relative to the BB, so either need a steep seat tube angle (74 or 74.5 in a mediumish size) or something that will take a zero offset post and look good with it. That actually rules out quite a lot of nice bikes that have 73 degree st angles and integrated or dedicated seatposts with lots of setback (e.g. the Bianchi Oltre), and I also won't buy a frame that doesn't have the right ratio of head tube length / reach to fit me without needing a weird length stem or too many spacers.

Current frame is a Trigon RQC29, straight out of one of the Taiwanese factories that makes top-end bikes for all of the big Italian and American brands, but marketed directly by themselves, so much better value. I guess they are a bit like Giant without the marketing department.. It's stiff, corners well and fits me perfectly, so however much I might be attracted to the latest offerings from the more desirable brands I'm loathe to shell out for something that could easily turn out not to ride as well or fit me as well. That said, the Wilier Zero 7 has almost identical geometry, so if I had a few grand burning a hole in my pocket I might be tempted...

ju5t1n

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

desweller

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

There's no tradition of craftsmanship or real exclusivity in the world of consumer electronics.

FWIW I tend to regard all mass-manufactured bikes in the same light; it's purely a value-for-money equation. I need to be looking at something with a hand-made custom frame to really get interested.

YIMan

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

Because computers are much more of a commodity item than a bike. It's the same as cars - people will value the German marques and Italian ultimates much more than a Far-Eastern car.

mallott

DesWeller wrote:

ju5t1n wrote:

Very few people think less of Apple because their products are manufactured in China, why should the bike industry be any different? Apple is a great brand, as are Pinarello, Cervelo, Giant et al. And these companies spend a sizeable amount of their marketing budgets supporting athletes through sponsorship.

There's no tradition of craftsmanship or real exclusivity in the world of consumer electronics.

FWIW I tend to regard all mass-manufactured bikes in the same light; it's purely a value-for-money equation. I need to be looking at something with a hand-made custom frame to really get interested.

So what classes as mass manufactured, bearing in mind all carbon frames are hand made? Over 100units a year? 1000? Is the cervelo in that category because its made in the far east?

When you do things a lot you get pretty good at it, the ingredients are fresh and the skill level high. But sure, you go buy your custom made bike so you think you're getting a better product. It sure will be interesting wondering wether the resin that's been floating round the factory for the last year was any good when they made a frame from it.

There are good and not so good frames out there, the classic brands spend a lot of time making sure their frames are the good ones.

Raffles

Im intrigued by the italian bikes and just love Casati and Ciocc products. Big snag is they are made in italy with racers in mind and that means long toptubes. With me being a short@rse with short arms I am never going to fit on a Casati or Ciocc and id bet my shirt that I dont have the flexibility neither.................drop dead gorgeous bikes though.

LegendLust

Raffles wrote:

Im intrigued by the italian bikes and just love Casati and Ciocc products. Big snag is they are made in italy with racers in mind and that means long toptubes. With me being a short@rse with short arms I am never going to fit on a Casati or Ciocc and id bet my shirt that I dont have the flexibility neither.................drop dead gorgeous bikes though.

Well that's what custom, made-to-measure bikes are for. You could have a beautiful Legend fit you perfectly...

MountainMonster

LegendLust wrote:

Raffles wrote:

Im intrigued by the italian bikes and just love Casati and Ciocc products. Big snag is they are made in italy with racers in mind and that means long toptubes. With me being a short@rse with short arms I am never going to fit on a Casati or Ciocc and id bet my shirt that I dont have the flexibility neither.................drop dead gorgeous bikes though.

Well that's what custom, made-to-measure bikes are for. You could have a beautiful Legend fit you perfectly...

Are you literally only interested in Legend? Everything is about Legend.....