Who's the Greatest - English Speaking Rider?

24

Comments

  • inkyfingers
    inkyfingers Posts: 4,400
    Hard to separate Lemond and Kelly in my view, Lemond certainly the best GT rider (but suffers from a lack of wins outside of July and September) , Kelly easily the best all rounder.
    "I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    Kelly - Super Prestige Pernod winner for about 7 years on the trot, virtually won every race going apart from the Tour,Giro,Worlds & his only regret Flanders where he should have beaten Van der Poel. LeMond 2nd tho he never really took the months outside july that seriously only on some occassions i.e Worlds the odd classic.
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    Kelly and Lemond. Simples. No one else comes close.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    LeMond 2nd tho he never really took the months outside july that seriously only on some occassions i.e Worlds the odd classic.
    But the Worlds were in August at that period.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • TheStone
    TheStone Posts: 2,291
    mididoctors wrote:
    if you strike lance then you have to strike most of that list

    This.
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  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    philbar72 wrote:
    Kelly and Lemond. Simples. No one else comes close.

    Absolutely 100% agreed.

    But I'll always have a soft spot for Robert Millar, even though he didn't achieve as much.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,941
    TheStone wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    if you strike lance then you have to strike most of that list

    This.

    Lance isn't struck. His palmares is.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Matchstick Man
    Matchstick Man Posts: 565
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    philbar72 wrote:
    Kelly and Lemond. Simples. No one else comes close.

    Absolutely 100% agreed.

    But I'll always have a soft spot for Robert Millar, even though he didn't achieve as much.

    I grew up following Lemond and I have a massive soft spot for the guy. However, I'd give Kelly the nod in this instance because he had a greater palmares from Classics to short stage races and then the Vuelta. That Worlds finish in '89 was amazing for Lemond but heartbreaking for Kelly.....
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    To digress for a moment for one of my favourite Kelly anecdotes. I knew someone who knew and rode with Kelly when they were juniors. For some reason the Irish and GB hopefuls were all gathered together at some camp. Kelly turns up wearing the most basic of basic gear - as a lowly-paid brickie there wasnt any money going on his kit. The British riders laughed and took the michael - until he absolutely tore their legs off.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    To digress for a moment for one of my favourite Kelly anecdotes. I knew someone who knew and rode with Kelly when they were juniors. For some reason the Irish and GB hopefuls were all gathered together at some camp. Kelly turns up wearing the most basic of basic gear - as a lowly-paid brickie there wasnt any money going on his kit. The British riders laughed and took the michael - until he absolutely tore their legs off.

    Great story! I bet he didn't utter a word before or after, just tore them new ones...
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    To digress for a moment for one of my favourite Kelly anecdotes. I knew someone who knew and rode with Kelly when they were juniors. For some reason the Irish and GB hopefuls were all gathered together at some camp. Kelly turns up wearing the most basic of basic gear - as a lowly-paid brickie there wasnt any money going on his kit. The British riders laughed and took the michael - until he absolutely tore their legs off.

    Great story! I bet he didn't utter a word before or after, just tore them new ones...


    Yeah, that's pretty much what my mate said. He absolutely broke them.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,112
    Really? Kelly was the undisputed world number 1 for 7 years, Wiggins, for all his achievements this year, pales in comparison.
  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    andyp wrote:
    Really? Kelly was the undisputed world number 1 for 7 years, Wiggins, for all his achievements this year, pales in comparison.
    Wiggo is hardly a one year wonder
    You are discounting his Outstanding track record,& taking that into account,he hardly pales in comparison
    OP never said road racing
    Not even sure you can REALLY class Kelly as an English speaker,with his accent,anyway :lol:
    so many cols,so little time!
  • nick hanson
    nick hanson Posts: 1,655
    mike6 wrote:
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
    Agreed,particularly if he could bag the Giro,to show a wider palmaries
    so many cols,so little time!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,941
    nick hanson wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
    Agreed,particularly if he could bag the Giro,to show a wider palmaries


    Seriously?
      Tour de France: Points classification (1982, 1983, 1985, 1989) Intermediate sprints classification (1982, 1983, 1989) 5 Stages Vuelta a España General Classification (1988) Points classification (1980, 1985, 1986, 1988) 16 Stages Stage Races Paris–Nice General classification (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988) Tour de Suisse General classification (1983, 1990) Vuelta al País Vasco General classification (1984, 1986, 1987) Volta a Catalunya General classification (1984, 1986) Single-Day Races and Classics UCI Road World Cup: (1989) Milan – San Remo: (1986, 1992) Paris–Roubaix: (1984, 1986) Liège–Bastogne–Liège: (1984, 1989) Giro di Lombardia: (1983, 1985, 1991) Critérium International: (1983, 1984, 1987)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    nick hanson wrote:
    OP never said road racing

    So should we be looking at Chris Hoy then? 6 Olympic Golds and 11 World Championship titles.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    TailWindHome wrote:
    nick hanson wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
    Agreed,particularly if he could bag the Giro,to show a wider palmaries


    Seriously?
      Tour de France: Points classification (1982, 1983, 1985, 1989) Intermediate sprints classification (1982, 1983, 1989) 5 Stages Vuelta a España General Classification (1988) Points classification (1980, 1985, 1986, 1988) 16 Stages Stage Races Paris–Nice General classification (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988) Tour de Suisse General classification (1983, 1990) Vuelta al País Vasco General classification (1984, 1986, 1987) Volta a Catalunya General classification (1984, 1986) Single-Day Races and Classics UCI Road World Cup: (1989) Milan – San Remo: (1986, 1992) Paris–Roubaix: (1984, 1986) Liège–Bastogne–Liège: (1984, 1989) Giro di Lombardia: (1983, 1985, 1991) Critérium International: (1983, 1984, 1987)

    Case closed.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    nick hanson wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
    Agreed,particularly if he could bag the Giro,to show a wider palmaries


    Seriously?
      Tour de France: Points classification (1982, 1983, 1985, 1989) Intermediate sprints classification (1982, 1983, 1989) 5 Stages Vuelta a España General Classification (1988) Points classification (1980, 1985, 1986, 1988) 16 Stages Stage Races Paris–Nice General classification (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988) Tour de Suisse General classification (1983, 1990) Vuelta al País Vasco General classification (1984, 1986, 1987) Volta a Catalunya General classification (1984, 1986) Single-Day Races and Classics UCI Road World Cup: (1989) Milan – San Remo: (1986, 1992) Paris–Roubaix: (1984, 1986) Liège–Bastogne–Liège: (1984, 1989) Giro di Lombardia: (1983, 1985, 1991) Critérium International: (1983, 1984, 1987)

    Case closed.

    I said "If Wiggins has the same success in 2013 as 2012".

    I dont believe Kelly was multi world and Olympic champion on the track. I dont think he won an Olympic gold on the road. Wiggins also held the persuit world record.

    Sean never won the general classification in the Tour. If, as I said, Brad wins the Tour or the Giro, next year and repeats his spring victories he will be up there.

    Case open.
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    Cavendish, not often someone is so much better than anyone else in their discipline, by the time his career comes to an end i don't think there will be many/if any riders let alone english speaking riders whos palmares better his
  • milton50
    milton50 Posts: 3,856
    Kelly's still head and shoulders above the others in my opinion. To win the Vuelta and prestigious stage races like Paris-Nice and Tour de Suisse while at the same time absolutely crushing the monument classics and winning dozens of stages and jerseys is unbelievable.

    Kelly would be in my top 3 or 4 road cyclists of all time let alone English speaking riders.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,941
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    Cavendish, not often someone is so much better than anyone else in their discipline, by the time his career comes to an end i don't think there will be many/if any riders let alone english speaking riders whos palmares better his


    If you compare Cavendish's palmares to Kelly's you need to do so with a TDF sprint stage:Classic rate of exchange in mind.

    I'd suggest 1 classic = 8 sprint stages

    Revised to 8 (Paris stage = 2 ordinary stages)
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    The thing with Kelly is you could put him in any race on the road calendar and he would have a good shot of winning it - and most of them he did win at one time or another. I've not seen someone who can do that since, and I doubt I ever will.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with Kelly is you could put him in any race on the road calendar and he would have a good shot of winning it - and most of them he did win at one time or another. I've not seen someone who can do that since, and I doubt I ever will.

    + 1 Case Closed 2nd time. How anyone could say if wiggins has the same wins next year as this year will be up there or surpass kelly is talking bolshovics.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Milton50 wrote:
    Kelly's still head and shoulders above the others in my opinion. To win the Vuelta and prestigious stage races like Paris-Nice and Tour de Suisse while at the same time absolutely crushing the monument classics and winning dozens of stages and jerseys is unbelievable.

    Kelly would be in my top 3 or 4 road cyclists of all time let alone English speaking riders.
    Of course he is and the all time rankings show the same and agree your point.
    When a so called team mate steals the race when it was his best chance to win a World road race.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    The thing with Kelly is you could put him in any race on the road calendar and he would have a good shot of winning it - and most of them he did win at one time or another. I've not seen someone who can do that since, and I doubt I ever will.

    + 1 Case Closed 2nd time. How anyone could say if wiggins has the same wins next year as this year will be up there or surpass kelly is talking bolshovics.

    No...just a different opinion to yours, and I did say Kelly was my No 1 At this time.
  • philbar72
    philbar72 Posts: 2,229
    That's the thing ... Kelly could do the lot, sprint, climb, tt, descend like a demon. Just a great rider.
  • Nick Fitt
    Nick Fitt Posts: 381
    philbar72 wrote:
    That's the thing ... Kelly could do the lot, sprint, climb, tt, descend like a demon. Just a great rider.

    Just ask Willy Voet!
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    mike6 wrote:
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    nick hanson wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Kelly for me, but if Wiggins has the same success in 2013 that he had in 2012, he will take over the crown.
    Agreed,particularly if he could bag the Giro,to show a wider palmaries


    Seriously?
      Tour de France: Points classification (1982, 1983, 1985, 1989) Intermediate sprints classification (1982, 1983, 1989) 5 Stages Vuelta a España General Classification (1988) Points classification (1980, 1985, 1986, 1988) 16 Stages Stage Races Paris–Nice General classification (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988) Tour de Suisse General classification (1983, 1990) Vuelta al País Vasco General classification (1984, 1986, 1987) Volta a Catalunya General classification (1984, 1986) Single-Day Races and Classics UCI Road World Cup: (1989) Milan – San Remo: (1986, 1992) Paris–Roubaix: (1984, 1986) Liège–Bastogne–Liège: (1984, 1989) Giro di Lombardia: (1983, 1985, 1991) Critérium International: (1983, 1984, 1987)

    Case closed.

    I said "If Wiggins has the same success in 2013 as 2012".

    I dont believe Kelly was multi world and Olympic champion on the track. I dont think he won an Olympic gold on the road. Wiggins also held the persuit world record.

    Sean never won the general classification in the Tour. If, as I said, Brad wins the Tour or the Giro, next year and repeats his spring victories he will be up there.

    Case open.

    The track achievements are good, but don't weigh much in this analysis for me, and Olympic TT was never available for Kelly.

    If Wiggins has the same success in 2013 and 2014, and wins a few classics as well, come back and talk to me.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,327
    So what points system are we using to weight this?

    I've not got a lot of love for the current UCI points, and as we're talking "greatest ever" I certainly don't think any podiums should count, except for the GTs. Like Rich, I'd want some points for the GT jerseys.

    So what's the breakdown?
    GC: TdF, Vuelta & Giro, one week races.
    Monuments & Rainbow stripes
    Classics
    Jerseys
    GT stages
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.
    Bonus points for historic records, triple crowns, successful defences of a title? Or should that be left as a tie-breaker factor?

    Not sure what points I'd hand out for any of those, interested to see how others weight them.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format

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