Who's the Greatest - English Speaking Rider?

13

Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,154
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    So what points system are we using to weight this?

    I've not got a lot of love for the current UCI points, and as we're talking "greatest ever" I certainly don't think any podiums should count, except for the GTs. Like Rich, I'd want some points for the GT jerseys.

    So what's the breakdown?
    GC: TdF, Vuelta & Giro, one week races.
    Monuments & Rainbow stripes
    Classics
    Jerseys
    GT stages
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.
    Bonus points for historic records, triple crowns, successful defences of a title? Or should that be left as a tie-breaker factor?

    Not sure what points I'd hand out for any of those, interested to see how others weight them.

    My points system was pretty crude:

    Only victories counted
    Points were the same as for the current World Tour
    Only races currently on WT counted except...
    ...Worlds/Olympics: RR 100pts, TT 50pts
    Only stages in GTs counted
    KOM/Points jerseys: Tour 80pts, Giro/Vuelta 50

    It's flawed, of course, but wasn't going to spend more than ten minutes on it.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    So what points system are we using to weight this?

    I've not got a lot of love for the current UCI points, and as we're talking "greatest ever" I certainly don't think any podiums should count, except for the GTs. Like Rich, I'd want some points for the GT jerseys.

    So what's the breakdown?
    GC: TdF, Vuelta & Giro, one week races.
    Monuments & Rainbow stripes
    Classics
    Jerseys
    GT stages
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.
    Bonus points for historic records, triple crowns, successful defences of a title? Or should that be left as a tie-breaker factor?

    Not sure what points I'd hand out for any of those, interested to see how others weight them.

    My points system was pretty crude:

    Only victories counted
    Points were the same as for the current World Tour
    Only races currently on WT counted except...
    ...Worlds/Olympics: RR 100pts, TT 50pts
    Only stages in GTs counted
    KOM/Points jerseys: Tour 80pts, Giro/Vuelta 50

    It's flawed, of course, but wasn't going to spend more than ten minutes on it.

    C+ Must do better.
    I demand a full spreadsheet with columns for different types of race/point award. Think you may have weighted the jerseys a little highly in relation to the Worlds there though.
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  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.

    Fundamentally, are we including going round in circles?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    TailWindHome wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.

    Fundamentally, are we including going round in circles?

    Only if the circle is the size of France, Spain or Italy.
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  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.

    Fundamentally, are we including going round in circles?

    Only if the circle is the size of France, Spain or Italy.

    But not the size of a velodrome.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Any other wins count? I'd be inclined to say no.

    Fundamentally, are we including going round in circles?

    Only if the circle is the size of France, Spain or Italy.

    But not the size of a velodrome.

    That would be an incredibly big velodrome.
    I will allow races that end with a couple of laps of a velodrome though, as long as they didn't start there as well.
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  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    philbar72 wrote:
    That's the thing ... Kelly could do the lot, sprint, climb, tt, descend like a demon. Just a great rider.

    Just ask Willy Voet!

    Just ask ex Sky man Geert Lienders
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    Nicked from the boards.ie forum earlier today..

    A92JTi_CYAEUXKX.jpg:large

    /thread
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    So, you are saying trck riding is not a valid cycle sport, or is it only being left out because it favours your argument?

    Just asking.

    Merckx
    Boardman
    Moser
    etc,etc,etc, all thought it worthy of effort.
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    mike6 wrote:
    So, you are saying trck riding is not a valid cycle sport, or is it only being left out because it favours your argument?

    Just asking.

    Merckx
    Boardman
    Moser
    etc,etc,etc, all thought it worthy of effort.
    Makes it very complicated. Ok, you can have a go comparing Wiggins, Boardman, Moser an Merckx' careers taking road andtrack into account, but how do you compare the careers of Hoy and Kelly? And you'd have to include mtb, downhill, cyclocross, etc. Steve Peat or Tom Simpson? Cadel Evans would go up a bit...
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    mike6 wrote:
    So, you are saying trck riding is not a valid cycle sport, or is it only being left out because it favours your argument?

    Just asking.

    Merckx
    Boardman
    Moser
    etc,etc,etc, all thought it worthy of effort.

    I think you need to treat them as entirely separate sports. If all the riders take part in the road events, but 1% do the track, then what happens on the track is broadly irrelevant in terms of the road.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    The World Championship Jersey's are different for each Discipline. :roll:
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,938
    I'd suggest that the only 'track' event which counts is breaking the Hour Record (under any rules).

    This should carry the equivalent points of a Vuelta/Giro GC win.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    RichN95 wrote:
    I made up my own points system (broadly based on the World Tour* system and counting wins only) and the computer said:

    1. Kelly 3506
    2. Roche 1062
    3. LeMond 1016
    4. Cavendish 998
    5. Evans 786
    6. McEwen 752
    7. Wiggins 706
    8. Hampsten 588
    9. Simpson 532
    10. Anderson 436
    11. R Millar 422
    12. Armstrong 300
    13. Hoban 272
    14. Farrar 260
    15. O'Grady 220
    16. Hesjedal 186
    17. D Millar 176

    This is not my opinion - it's Microsoft Excel's - so blame Bill Gates

    (Note: 'Bad Armstrong' would have scored 2400, 'Bad David Millar' 226. 'Bad Hincapie' & 'Bad Leipheimer' didn't score that highly)

    *Worlds & Olympics (RR & TT) and GT jerseys scored points

    I agree with your computer
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    deejay wrote:
    The World Championship Jersey's are different for each Discipline. :roll:

    So road TT World and Olympic titles dont count then?? Or TT stage victories?

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    I shall look forward, then, to seeing Nathan Robertson doing a wiggins challenging for the tour.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    iainf72 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.

    I say again.......the original post made no mention of road exclusivity. What next??? Only long breakaway wins? How long dous the breakaway have to be away before it counts? Or, only mountain top finish wins? Come on, track cycling is just as demanding, and just as painful to train for.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    mike6 wrote:
    The post said Greatest English speaking rider.

    I would tend to agree, but then this part of the forum is "Road - Pro Race".
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    mike6 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.

    I say again.......the original post made no mention of road exclusivity. What next??? Only long breakaway wins? How long dous the breakaway have to be away before it counts? Or, only mountain top finish wins? Come on, track cycling is just as demanding, and just as painful to train for.

    Firstly, as pointed out above "Road > Pro Race" probably gives a clue.
    Secondly, we're clearly making this up as we go along.
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  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.

    I say again.......the original post made no mention of road exclusivity. What next??? Only long breakaway wins? How long dous the breakaway have to be away before it counts? Or, only mountain top finish wins? Come on, track cycling is just as demanding, and just as painful to train for.

    Firstly, as pointed out above "Road > Pro Race" probably gives a clue.
    Secondly, we're clearly making this up as we go along.

    Quite, so what is to stop me doing the same.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    mike6 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.

    I say again.......the original post made no mention of road exclusivity. What next??? Only long breakaway wins? How long dous the breakaway have to be away before it counts? Or, only mountain top finish wins? Come on, track cycling is just as demanding, and just as painful to train for.

    Firstly, as pointed out above "Road > Pro Race" probably gives a clue.
    Secondly, we're clearly making this up as we go along.

    Quite, so what is to stop me doing the same.

    Nothing whatsoever. But there's nothing to stop the rest of us disagreeing with you either :-)
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  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    mike6 wrote:

    The post said Greatest English speaking rider. If the so called 99% that dont ride the track, as stated by another poster, just save themselves for the road events surely that makes the 1% who also ride the track even better?

    Nah. To me, if you're a track champion you may as well be a badminton champion for all the relevance it has to the road.

    I say again.......the original post made no mention of road exclusivity. What next??? Only long breakaway wins? How long dous the breakaway have to be away before it counts? Or, only mountain top finish wins? Come on, track cycling is just as demanding, and just as painful to train for.

    Firstly, as pointed out above "Road > Pro Race" probably gives a clue.
    Secondly, we're clearly making this up as we go along.

    Quite, so what is to stop me doing the same.

    Nothing whatsoever. But there's nothing to stop the rest of us disagreeing with you either :-)

    The rest of us????
    I think not. You have your opinion, I have mine. That is what forums are about.
    Don't try and suggest its the rest of the forum posters versus little old me.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    mike6 wrote:

    The rest of us????
    I think not. You have your opinion, I have mine. That is what forums are about.
    Don't try and suggest its the rest of the forum posters versus little old me.

    Fill your boots then. Go ahead and give us your opinion, if possible with your weighting criteria for the different events (bearing in mind there are currently eight Olympic medals and ten WC medals available on the track and only two on the road). Don't let the fact that nobody that's stated an opinion so far has actually agreed with you put you off, nor that the thread has basically died in a consensus that Sean Kelly is the answer. Give it your best shot. While you're at it you could also let us know how to weight MBK, Cross and BMX in all of this.
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  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Don't let the fact that nobody that's stated an opinion so far has actually agreed with you put you off, nor that the thread has basically died in a consensus that Sean Kelly is the answer.

    I thought I had.

    Oh and I would say it's LeMond and not Kelly as well, but there you go.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Don't let the fact that nobody that's stated an opinion so far has actually agreed with you put you off, nor that the thread has basically died in a consensus that Sean Kelly is the answer.

    I thought I had.

    Oh and I would say it's LeMond and not Kelly as well, but there you go.

    Well that's you off my Christmas card list then.
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  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Well that's you off my Christmas card list then.

    Blimey, didn't know I was on it! Still waiting for last year's card. :(
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Well that's you off my Christmas card list then.

    Blimey, didn't know I was on it! Still waiting for last year's card. :(

    What, the one with the £500 Wiggle token in? It never arrived?
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  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    is it Kimmage?
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    What, the one with the £500 Wiggle token in? It never arrived?

    Err, no. Postie has got a nice new Raleigh Airlite though. Wait a minute...

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