Progressive FTP training
joe.90
Posts: 171
I'm gonna keep this short.
(Srry, This may have been covered, but there have been so many questions and answers of different variation I dunno where to start)
Increasing FTP.
starting at 10 mins sessions to eventually 30 mins over the course of a couple months, what is the best area for my HR to be in?
Max HR is 210, FTP HR 180. -/+ 2 beats
I was gonna go for keeping HR at 185-189 for the duration...(103-105%ftp)
Would this be correct, and help improve FTP? Opinions please.
(Srry, This may have been covered, but there have been so many questions and answers of different variation I dunno where to start)
Increasing FTP.
starting at 10 mins sessions to eventually 30 mins over the course of a couple months, what is the best area for my HR to be in?
Max HR is 210, FTP HR 180. -/+ 2 beats
I was gonna go for keeping HR at 185-189 for the duration...(103-105%ftp)
Would this be correct, and help improve FTP? Opinions please.
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I was under the impression that any training you do will increase your FTP as long as it's hard enough and long enough.
Just out of interest, why increase the duration rather than the intensity?CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!0 -
Herbsman wrote:I was under the impression that any training you do will increase your FTP as long as it's hard enough and long enough.
Just out of interest, why increase the duration rather than the intensity?
Yeah, I see what you mean. There is so much bollox about training its unreal. I'm trying to keep it relatively straight forward.
well initially I thought i would start with very short sessions above threshold, then gradually increase duration over time.
Why, What are you thinking?0 -
If you only have HR and not power, do you have any suitable steady climbs in your area?
Do you want to increase your FTP permanently or for a certain event/race?
Have you done a lot of FTP training lately?
How much time can you spare per week and on how many days?
How many hours have you been doing per week in the last few weeks?0 -
I have HR and power. Tacx flow turbo.
I'm aiming for the upcoming season.
I currently have a full week of training already set up. I'm trying to set up an additional power session to an already 11 hour per week regime.
Edit* as of now, the week is made up of lvl2 base stuff, with 1 progressive power session...like I said was hoping to add another, made up by myself.0 -
Well, that's certainly ambitious. It would be helpful to know your training program to give you advice.
What have you based your program on? Particular litertaure, hear say, club, ...?0 -
Yeah, I agree it is ambitious. that was why i had the idea of starting with very little and very gradually increasing.
Following the guidelines of Pete reads black book!0 -
joe.90 wrote:Yeah, I agree it is ambitious. that was why i had the idea of starting with very little and very gradually increasing.
Following the guidelines of Pete reads black book!
And now you want to put in an extra session aimed at your FTP?0 -
Yeah that was the idea...does that seem a bad idea?0
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It really depends on your current training program. Usually an ambitious training program tries to preserve a good balance of intensity, volume, and rest/recovery so to make a suggestion one would really have to know the details of your program - I have only heard of the black book but am not familiar with the details.
What would be a standard week in your program?0 -
Mon - recovery ride 1 hour
Tues - 1 hour @ upper lvl 2 hr zone
Weds - 45 min power intervals
Thurs - 1 hour, yo-yo from bottom to top of lvl 2.
Fri - off
Sat - 2.5 @ upper lvl 2
Sun - 4-5 hours @ lvl 1 - 2
He puts a lot of enthasis on controlled HR, even with the power sessions, at the moment, i dont go any higher HR that 189 (max 210)
So what do you think will be best to squeeze in?
I like the programme, it's good. Only it's just that, a generic programme of which I feel I could add too.0 -
joe.90 wrote:I like the programme, it's good. Only it's just that, a generic programme of which I feel I could add too.
Absolutely. As long as you remember to take an easy week every 4 weeks or so you can definitely add something to that plan.
Most sensible thing to do would probably be to replace the Tuesday workout with an L4 session. If you have enough time you can do an L4 session in the morning and your current Tuesday workout.
To recommend something specific: What type of intervals do you do on Wednesdays?
The main danger of doing two interval sessions per week in winter is peaking to soon, which is why most training plans have at most one workout with higher intensity per week, that requires some patience.
For example I did a lot of L4 work last winter and had tremendous form in April which was to soon. I had a mediocre May and then it took me almost 3 months to get back my April form...
However if you make sure you to adhere to your recovery/rest periods, I think you should be fine. So it's really up to you. My advice would be to stay patient until your plan allows for more intense training. The idea is to train big volume and provide a base which makes it much easier to put in a few nice L4 or L5 blocks a month before you want to peak. It's called base for a reason.
But if you're certain you want to do more for your FTP now, I think you can but be aware...0 -
Wow, Thank you for advice. It's very good, and i will take it on board. (Especially a week easier every 4)
The weds session is very good. Basically it's a min in each gear down the block with 1 min rests in between. weekly it increases to 4 mins, then after that the rest time starts to decrease week by week.
This is the only above threshold training in the week during dec.
The new session I was trying to figure out was with a low rpm and slightly above threshold (similar to weds) but constantly 103-105% above FTP . Not interval training as such.
I was planning on doing this on weds mornings, before the interval training in the evenings. But as you said, I think it would perhaps make more sense to do this tues morning,
Edit* I know it may seem like I have answered my own question, but what I was really trying to get a was the correct level to train for such an session. From what i can gather 103-105% seems to be the way...?0 -
Yep that's fine, but I would recommend doing intervals anyway. For example 4x5'@105%-110%. In spring and summer you would normally do them at ~120% but that would be a good compromise for a winter interval session. But feel free to vary that and in your recovery week do at most one of the interval sessions and shorter than usually, only 3 rides in that week (maybe plus 1h recovery ride if you want) and also shorten your weekend rides. This will become more important once your trainings is getting more intense in March/April... but is beneficial during winter as well.
Low cadence? May I ask why? Are you training for TTs or steep climbs?0 -
A plan is a plan.. my own training code is .. if you can train.. train.. why slack off , if there is no reason to slack off?
A scheduled 'rest week is good to know.. unless you had unscheduled sore throat and general lethargy the week before... or the God forbid the week after
Using Golden Cheetah or TP , you can write your 'excuses' on the graph...
as you might guess, woke up with sore throat and general lethargy this morning... last thing I want to do is a 2 hour tempo ride at the moment.....0 -
JGSI wrote:A plan is a plan.. my own training code is .. if you can train.. train.. why slack off , if there is no reason to slack off?
The question is what should you train if you have extra spare time? To much high intensity in the winter can (!) lead to too early top form if you're not careful and if you get a good base in winter, peaking when you want to isn't that hard.0 -
Setarkos wrote:JGSI wrote:A plan is a plan.. my own training code is .. if you can train.. train.. why slack off , if there is no reason to slack off?
The question is what should you train if you have extra spare time? To much high intensity in the winter can (!) lead to too early top form if you're not careful and if you get a good base in winter, peaking when you want to isn't that hard.
but i didnt mention intensities did I?
What you want to do with yourself is entirely up to you or your coach.0 -
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what do you mean by golden cheetah? can someone explain that to me
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joe.90 wrote:what do you mean by golden cheetah? can someone explain that to me
http://goldencheetah.org/0 -
thanks...that looks far too complicated for me!0
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If you have access to a power meter than you can pretty much stop using HR as a training target and just focus on increasing watts per target time interval.
HR has its uses. The main ones are:
- Providing an alternative fitness measure that should correlate with power gains. As you get fitter you will be able to put out more watts per HR zone. (This is secondary though, the main training focus is improving watts you can sustain for given times)
- Signalling if something is wrong. If your HR is wildly low or high its a sign something is wrong. You will probably spot this anyway but this will confirm it. If it stays low and you can't generate power it may be that you are ill or haven't eaten enough. If it goes way to high it may also be illness but could also be caused by training environment being too hot. Whatever its worth investigating.
- If you are using power on a turbo indoors and HR for outdoor rides then HR can help judge your outdoor zones. However I would also use RPE (relative perceived effort) + speed. Speed will vary ofc but if you ride the same or similar routes it won't take long to get some target times for the ride as a whole or sections of it.
As for progressive training, the simplest way is to have some PBs for certain time periods and just train/aim to improve these. Every ride have something you can measure (power/speed/total distance covered) and just try to better the performance you did last time.
It sounds as if you are relatively new to training and this plus the limited amount of time you have to train means you don't need to worry about peaking too early or overtraining.
In your situation I would be (and did when starting) just trying to get as fit as possible as fast as possible. If you do this you should keep motivated through seeing steady progress and feeling fitter. The time will come when you will hit a plateau. If you do you will have a very good grasp of what your FTP/other zones, are, how it feels to train hard and what works/doesn't work for you and, perhaps, start to think about a more complicated plan.
That does mean that in your situation I would be aiming to spend more time at higher effort. If you want to improve FTP then really you need to ride at or close to FTP intensity/ I would be including some higher level work in the longer rides and try to avoid level 1 as much as possible.
You can get some benefit from riding easier but it will take longer and you will not reach as high a final level. I would also not be using an hour on Monday for a recovery ride, rather use all on bike time for training.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
very interesting.
Remembering that peter reads levels are -1 below the usual, as he uses a level 0, where other go straight from 1.
well, Im new to this volume of training and structure yes.
Since November my base has def improved, but i feel the lack of high intensity is making me slightly lazy. reaching and maintaining 190bpm for duration of 5-10 mins seems harder nowadays, yet i know my max is approx 205-210.
particularly interesting saying about the not worrying about over-training/peaking. i am going to start raising my HR to slightly above anaerobic intensities more, but only for shorter durations a few times a week, then will start to increase the volume as the season approaches.
the worry i have is that i have trained at very high interval intensitys, and it is very effective for me, but harder to substain even in the summer, let alone the winter.0 -
Me being thick I am sure, but how can you train at 120% of FTP? Surely (and this is where I must be losing it) 120 % of 180 (your FTP) is 216? Whereas your max HR is 210? Am I missing something?
I can TT for an hour at 160 bpm ( actual race - not simulated) and have a max HR of 183, so there is no way I could go at 120 % FTP. My calculations off??0 -
FTP is for training with power though, so 120% is possible, when going by HR you have to define it differently, and the time spent at 120% of FTP would be so short your HR is useless, as it takes time to actually rise.
For these session, if you are training by using HR, you need to go on percieved effort and not HR, for any interval less than 20 mins HR is not worth bothering with IMO0 -
Ahhh, thanks SBezza, makes more sense. In theory then, for those of us that dont have power meters, we could use the percentage of speed instead? I set up a speedo on the rear wheel of a bike on a turbo - tyre pressure and resistance is kept the same and I have "zones" for speeds. So, say my FTP on the turbo is 28mph, I could use the 120% above FTP or say 95% of FTP based on this I suppose? As, like you say, HR is useless for short sprint type efforts. Sound reasonable?0
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fcukwit wrote:Ahhh, thanks SBezza, makes more sense. In theory then, for those of us that dont have power meters, we could use the percentage of speed instead? I set up a speedo on the rear wheel of a bike on a turbo - tyre pressure and resistance is kept the same and I have "zones" for speeds. So, say my FTP on the turbo is 28mph, I could use the 120% above FTP or say 95% of FTP based on this I suppose? As, like you say, HR is useless for short sprint type efforts. Sound reasonable?
That'd only work if speed is linear with power on your turbo, which it almost certainly isn't.
You could test and see what speed you can hold for a given duration. So say you can hold 32mph for 5 minutes as a one off all out effort then you could do 5x5min intervals at say 31mph. But then this relies on your turbo being highly repeatable, which many aren't.More problems but still living....0 -
But then this relies on your turbo being highly repeatable, which many aren't.
I see what you are saying,hadn't considered that, good point. I guess the lesson is there are no cheap substitutes for power meters..........0 -
right im royally confused.
Ive been training with HR rather than power, as of now my FTP is approx 260w. (hr between 170-180 for an hour)
training with power intervals: its suggested to go up to 120% of ftp, which for me would be 312...how long do the intervals have to be at this power to be effective?
My thoughts are If i train with HR then really there is no limit to my wattage, only whatever my HR will allow. which with a variety of training (some perceived power, some @ anaerobic threshold, some above, some aerobic base.. etc) then power should naturally improve?
edit * Peter Read puts alot of enthasis on training in HR zones rather than power. i guess going off the same theory i just listed above..then again his manual was done in the 90's, is training with power the newer approach to training?0 -
Pete wrote the book well before powermeters were available to the general public, as for training if you are going by HR forget about the 120% of FTP intervals with using HR as a measurement.
120% of FTP intervals are around the 5/6 min mark I would guess for most people, your HR would just lag too much during these short intervals to use it as a reliable guide to intensity. You need to use Percieved Effort on these types of intervals if you do not have a powermeter.
If you have a powermeter use that for training, by all means use a HRM as well (I do), but the best training data will be gathered by a powermeter in all honesty. If you don't have a powermeter don't worry about estimates of power, and try and train effectively as possible with HR (it can be done, I used to train and race very effectively with a HRM).0
