maximum possible effort for a 2x20?
Comments
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bobones wrote:
How often are you recommending we do these 1+ hour time trial efforts? Are we supposed to do them on the turbo in winter? Sounds like a whole lot of fun.bahzob wrote:An excellent training routine at all times of the year, including winter is to do solid 60min+ sessions at steady power. In this case the rule I cited above applies. You will be aiming to do these at the highest power possible which will be,by definition, just short of whatever your FTP happens to be i.e. the sweetspot zone. So you could well end up doing a steady 90 mins of SST. This will be way better training in all senses than 2x20 mins at just short of FTP.
So many people here are giving advice that sweetspot training is a waste of time, but I've read elsewhere that 2x20 @ 85% FTP, day in, day out is a great way to go to build FTP. Here are just 2 references Flamme Rouge and Slow twitch forum - read posts by user nslckevin (Kevin Metcalfe).
Are these guys talking rubbish then?
also Carmichael (despite the dodgy provenance of formally being someone's personal coach) advises a good training ride at Tempo 80-85% of ftp and if you want to strive for pro status/bragging rights 2 hour + durations.0 -
I could do >2 hours at 80% FTP without any trouble at all. I've probably done up to around 4 hour rides at ~80% FTP. I'd have thought most amateur racers could, never mind pro cyclists.More problems but still living....0
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amaferanga wrote:I could do >2 hours at 80% FTP without any trouble at all. I've probably done up to around 4 hour rides at ~80% FTP. I'd have thought most amateur racers could, never mind pro cyclists.
probably, only quoting what he wrote as a workout.0 -
How does the FTP relate to HR?
Doing 2x20 at 95% FTP. is that the same as doing them at 95% of my 1 hour HR?
ThanksScott Addict 2011
Giant TCR 20120 -
amaferanga wrote:Do you actually have a power meter? In the real world, with hills, corners, junctions, etc., if you want to average anywhere near 90% FTP then you'll need to spend a fair bit of time above FTP.
If you don't mind me asking, you're giving some very authoritative sounding training advice, but as I understand it you're a 4th Cat. Are you a coach or something who's just turned to road racing?
Well, okgo cleared things up, I just wanted to add that I have had my powermeter for about a year now and have spend a lot of time reading up on the topic.
Also I have focused a lot on FTP specifically and had some power specific coaching.
However I am not a coach myself so my opinion should be taken as that of a lament, so I try to support them with arguments.
Averaging 90%: Okay, obviously it depends on where you ride but I would avoid long descents (but around London they are rarely longer than a minute) and traffic. If you're doing SST the odd minute at a traffic light or on a descent doesn't really change the metabolic state you're in (which is what you're essentially training) so you can ignore it. So you can look at you NP in an SST session which will not be affected so strongly by descents and traffic lights (I train with Auto Stop anyway but with zeros).
It is not so much about the average in the end of the day but rather the total time spent close to 90% (I use 88% as target).bahzob wrote:Training for amateurs is remarkably straight forward.
I agree with that statement as well as most of your post, except for your standpoint on SST. The amateur's problem is to fit in his training plan into his daily work, family etc. routine and recovery is compromised.
But yes SST sessions should not be less than 60minutes (I'd say at least 90min).0 -
amaferanga wrote:I could do >2 hours at 80% FTP without any trouble at all. I've probably done up to around 4 hour rides at ~80% FTP. I'd have thought most amateur racers could, never mind pro cyclists.
This should actually not depend on a rider's level. In the German forums the formula FTP*(0.95)^(t-1) (t in hours) is frequently used to estimate what you can maintain for a duration longer than an hour.0 -
neeb wrote:Basically, I'm snowed in all winter and mainly just trying to keep up / build on the fitness to put me in the best position possible come spring. No point doing the VO2 max & anaerobic stuff at the moment, I assume...
If longer sessions at less than FTP are the way to go, then the best way for me to motivate myself to do them is to use the tacx RLVs, e.g. a simulated climb of Mt. Ventoux is basically 90mins of SST. But I'll maybe also try to do a 2x20 at maximum effort (100% FTP or just over) once a week?
I try to do one interval session per week until February; L4, VO2max, whatever I fancy.
If you want to you can put in a dedicated VO2max block (eg. Jeser Bondo Medhus's 2 week VO2max booster) but I would say no later than mid-January and only if you've been keeping your normal schedule before-hand. Take 7-10 very easy days afterwards and then resume your normal training programme.
The issue with high intensity (everything above FTP) is not to peak (but I might be hypersensitive to that).0 -
okgo wrote:Back onto 2x20 I've been doing mine at around 85% of my best 20 mins, so 90% of my FTP is we are basing it on 95% of max 20 min effort. Does this sound too low then?
I would say yes. SST is a great training but not done as a 2x20'.
Edit: But considering you're success so far you might want to change that, if it works for you.
My favourite early season (late Feb, March) work-out:
45' ~60-70%
3/4x15' ~88% (RI 5')
40' ~80%
60' ~65-70%
Dec-Jan, I do one intense interval session a week (4x5' @ 120% or 8x3' @ 120% or 2x20' @102%) and the rest is L1/L2 - nothing wrong with adding a 90min-SST to that though, I think.0 -
Where is this evidence that SST at less than 60 minutes is poor training?0
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You could roughly equate FTP and lactate threshold heart rate, which is the point where you start panting and speech is difficult, i.e. start of threshold HR zone (z4).Markwb79 wrote:How does the FTP relate to HR?
Doing 2x20 at 95% FTP. is that the same as doing them at 95% of my 1 hour HR?
Thanks
I would say doing 2x20 tempo HR is roughly equivalent to 2x20 @ 85-90% FTP and 2x20 in threshold HR zone will be in the 95-105% FTP range.
I find doing these longer intervals on HR can be a bit tougher because you need to ramp up the power early on to get your HR in the target zone whereas done on power, your HR increases gradually throughout the interval for a given effort.0 -
bobones wrote:So many people here are giving advice that sweetspot training is a waste of time, but I've read elsewhere that 2x20 @ 85% FTP, day in, day out is a great way to go to build FTP. Here are just 2 references Flamme Rouge and Slow twitch forum - read posts by user nslckevin (Kevin Metcalfe).
Are these guys talking rubbish then?
Regarding your first source. His data doesn't make much sense to me at all. If he's got an FTP of 300-320W during the height of the season, I don't see how that can drop to 240W in the off-season. Even if he's off the bike from September to December, that's still unlikely. So I'm assuming his test's are flawed so his data isn't really useful.
Let's just assume though that it is correct and his FTP dropped from 300W to 240W. In that case any kind of regular training would result in an instant increase of FTP because the body doesn't completely forget.
(Then again that guy doesn't seem to be normal with a max heart rate of 230, must actually be a mistake as well, because I don't see anything in his workout which should push your heart rate close to your max anyway)
Second source: If it works for him..., I know it wouldn't work for me. Tempo is important but so is the other stuff. One aspect to consider is, that it is very difficult for many to achieve the same power indoors (eg. I am at least 10% short which is why I always go outside). So a lower reading might be equivalent to a higher wattage outside in terms of training stress.
I think that nslckevin has simply done A LOT of training so it paid off but that doesn't mean it could not have been more efficient.
I believe in Allen/Coggan's concept of specificity so your training always depends on your training goals.
I don't know anyone (Pro, Elite, Amateur) who is doing that kind of training.0 -
doyler78 wrote:Where is this evidence that SST at less than 60 minutes is poor training?
Do you have evidence that it's not?
I can only present arguments and I'm just saying that it could be better. I don't see how less than 60minutes SST exert a useful training stress.0 -
Yes, I noticed that, and was tempted to conclude 1) either his advice is dodgy, or 2) if it works for him, these figures indicate that he is so physiologically different from me that it is unlikely to work for me..Setarkos wrote:If he's got an FTP of 300-320W during the height of the season, I don't see how that can drop to 240W in the off-season.
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Setarkos wrote:doyler78 wrote:Where is this evidence that SST at less than 60 minutes is poor training?
Do you have evidence that it's not?
I can only present arguments and I'm just saying that it could be better. I don't see how less than 60minutes SST exert a useful training stress.
I think you have forgotten an important element of training and that is that the training levels aren't physical. They don't exist in reality. They are guidelines as to where the focus should be in order to illicit the greatest adaptations on that area being worked on. Sweet spot is simply a level at which the accumulated fatigue from a similar duration ride at FTP would be less and therefore increase repeatability both within the session and in the following days. The vast majority of the training benefits of training at Treshold are available whilst training at Sweet Spot. So what that says to me is that if I ride 2x20 at Threshold and ride 2x20 at sweet spot then the training benefits are roughly similar so are you saying that 2x20 at Threshold isn't important or is it your belief that you have to do more at SST? I believe that is what you are saying however that is not what anything I have seen suggests. If the duration was an important factor then that would be made explicitly clear.
Can you do 60-120 min SST rides. Yes you can and they will provide a fantastic platform on which to build but that's quite different from saying that anything less than 60 minutes is useless.0 -
I'm not saying that it's useless (*) but that you can do better in an hour. If I have less than an hour to train I wouldn't go for SST but for something more intense. If I have more time, I can do SST but why stop after 60min?
Even if I do a 1h TT at 100% I could train the next day so why opt for lower intensity instead?
If you want one and only one workout that you do every day, week after week, then yes 2x20' @ 85% might be a good choice.
But periodisation is important and micro-, meso-, and macrocycles help structure your training and make it more effective.
(*) Maybe I did imply that, then I probably overstated it but I wouldn't put it in anyone's training programme unless after injury or in a transition period, reason see above.0 -
If i ever trained like some of you guys, i d pack it in and take up bridge - what ever happened to enjoyment?
I know elite cyclists who cant/wont train at the intensities you r advocating in winter, though what you are saying may bring the biggest gains, it might also have you selling your bike by May.
Most folk on here are 3/4s or dont even race - not elites chasing a pro contract - but to the point, where are your credentials in coaching? anyone can cut an paste a load of paragraphs from the numerous coaching articles on the 'net...0 -
It's a forum, the point is to discuss topics and answer questions to one's best ability. What else do you expect in the subforum titled "Training". Not everyone can afford a coach.
Maybe training like this and discussing the theory is part of the fun for us. Is that a problem for you?0 -
Setarkos wrote:It's a forum, the point is to discuss topics and answer questions to one's best ability. What else do you expect in the subforum titled "Training". Not everyone can afford a coach.
Maybe training like this and discussing the theory is part of the fun for us. Is that a problem for you?
I think you r missing the point, you are advocating a level of training that (though suitable for you?) may be totally incorrect for someone else, no matter how keen, now, if you are a coach with a wealth of experience in cycling etc etc then i can respect your opinions and try and learn from what you are saying....but if on the other hand all you ve done is read a few books and browsed a forum or two, then i think you should say.... which is it?0 -
mamba80 wrote:Setarkos wrote:It's a forum, the point is to discuss topics and answer questions to one's best ability. What else do you expect in the subforum titled "Training". Not everyone can afford a coach.
Maybe training like this and discussing the theory is part of the fun for us. Is that a problem for you?
I think you r missing the point, you are advocating a level of training that (though suitable for you?) may be totally incorrect for someone else, no matter how keen, now, if you are a coach with a wealth of experience in cycling etc etc then i can respect your opinions and try and learn from what you are saying....but if on the other hand all you ve done is read a few books and browsed a forum or two, then i think you should say.... which is it?
I think you need to realize that this is a forum, people can choose to ignore or take his advice, he isn't putting a gun to anyone's head is he. With regards to your other points, maybe you're content being a 3/4 cat rider, some of us are not, and we want to be the best we can be. Enjoyment for me is winning, or improving, not riding around chatting rubbish with the blokes on the 15mph club-run. Each to their own, and I have no issue with people who enjoy cycling for that side of it, but don't assume that just because you find the prospect of hammering yourself on the turbo/doing intervals horrid that everyone else does.Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
where i have i said any of that? you go follow his advice, mate.0
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mamba80 wrote:I think you r missing the point, you are advocating a level of training that (though suitable for you?) may be totally incorrect for someone else, no matter how keen, now, if you are a coach with a wealth of experience in cycling etc etc then i can respect your opinions and try and learn from what you are saying....but if on the other hand all you ve done is read a few books and browsed a forum or two, then i think you should say.... which is it?
If I were a coach I would take money for advice and not post it in a forum. I try to give advice to my best knowledge and try to present arguments rather than unexplained directives. I am more than happy to discuss the issues at hand and possibly learn more myself in the process. I am not offering to coach anyone or write training plans because I am not a coach. If only coaches would post here, there wouldn't be (m)any posts and all questions would remain unanswered.
I have been occupying myself with this topic a lot and for a while now. I have personal experience with everything I propose and I also have experienced power specific high-quality coaching so I think I am qualified enough to participate in lament's discussion on a forum.
Feel free to disagree with me but I don't see the point in criticising my credentials (which I am not at all secretive about) rather than the content of my posts and arguments.0 -
It'll be in a band. This is the sort of HR response you'll see from 20-min threshold efforts (and shorter harder efforts if you do them):Markwb79 wrote:How does the FTP relate to HR?
Doing 2x20 at 95% FTP. is that the same as doing them at 95% of my 1 hour HR?
Thanks
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Setarkos wrote:I'm not saying that it's useless (*) but that you can do better in an hour. If I have less than an hour to train I wouldn't go for SST but for something more intense. If I have more time, I can do SST but why stop after 60min?
Even if I do a 1h TT at 100% I could train the next day so why opt for lower intensity instead
That assumes that everyone conforms your idea of what a training programme should look like. The underlying assumption in your statement is that you do 1 hour SST only when fresh. What I do in the first week of block of training will be very different from what I might do in the days before a recovery period and likewise I might have a very hard mid week block and the 2x20 SST serves to keep enough intensity to be useful but to not to create so much fatigue that I can't complete the following days workout or I could chose to put it on the final day of that mid week block and at that point 2x20 at SST may be all I am capable of. I have faced numerous occasions where I can't do 2x20 @ FTP and SST is all I can realistically do. At that stage a recovery day is definitely called for however that doesn't mean that days workout isn't the correct choice it's just that I've got to the point that rest is now called for.If you want one and only one workout that you do every day, week after week, then yes 2x20' @ 85% might be a good choice.
But periodisation is important and micro-, meso-, and macrocycles help structure your training and make it more effective.
Personally I've never done SST at 85%, more like over 90% so I think part of the problem is that your idea of how easy is marred by an exaggerated view of the intensity at which it should be done which doesn't really match reality for many doing these.(*) Maybe I did imply that, then I probably overstated it but I wouldn't put it in anyone's training programme unless after injury or in a transition period, reason see above.
Well I wouldn't buy a plan from you but then I guess you know that already 0 -
Yes Setarkos i do disagree with you, i ve tried "dragging" up my threshold and though it can produce results it can also introduce a lot of mental fatigue and at this time of yr, get you ill.
Now based on what i ve learnt from some excellent coaches and from my daughters coach, i have found that its a better longer term bet to "push" up your threshold, this also helps build an excellent base.
However, i wouldnt presume to give any of this out as advice, like who the hell i am i ?
Herbsman: where did you get that handbag? my GF wants it
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mamba80 wrote:However, i wouldnt presume to give any of this out as advice, like who the hell i am i ?
Well, I think you should. Why not spread the knowledge and discuss different views on training?mamba80 wrote:Yes Setarkos i do disagree with you, i ve tried "dragging" up my threshold and though it can produce results it can also introduce a lot of mental fatigue and at this time of yr, get you ill.
I have (maybe not in this thread) always advocated doing less intense workout during the winter (typically one a week) so I don't think that's a training programme that get's you ill.
(BTW I am not saying to should only drag and never push your FTP, I think SST is a great form of training and have said so many times.)0 -
Well the original question was max effort for a 2x20.
But what event is 2 x20mins @ 100 to 105% ? why not 2 x 18 or 2x 21min? - i believe more in frequency than actually effort at this time of yr, so for me, more but at slightly less effort is better.
Repeating those sort of levels day in day out is very taxing - and it is then confusing to start talking about efforts needed in feb/march in the same thread.
Hard training can bring about drops in immunity - 2 weeks off sick wrecks everything.
also, you sound very authoritive, so people may follow exactly what you advise and that "may" not be what they need or can tolerate.
eg. in another post, you commented and advised extra (tougher) sessions for a guy following the Black book tp but then said you d never read it, i have and it is fuggin hard, basically min 5hrs at z3 MHR (P.Read starts his zones at 0) and then a 3 to 5 hr ride at ( constant) low range of tempo - add in his power training, which builds to a 28min threshold + sess and you have a tough program that really doesnt need extra sessions -with warm ups and cool downs you could be looking at 12hrs or so.
The guy used to or still is head coach at ABCC and ran a successful road team, so should know his onions - he also coached a local rider that i know very well, PR is old school but that doesnt mean he cant get results.0 -
mamba80 wrote:The guy used to or still is head coach at ABCC and ran a successful road team, so should know his onions - he also coached a local rider that i know very well, PR is old school but that doesnt mean he cant get results.
Still is one of the senior ABCC coaches, and still runs a very successful TT team, winners of the Team BBAR and Team Nat 12 Hour TT's this year
I am not coached by him however, though several guys on the team are.0 -
mamba80 wrote:blah blah blah...
eg. in another post, you commented and advised extra (tougher) sessions for a guy following the Black book tp but then said you d never read it
...blah blah blah
You clearly haven't read the other post correctly. The OP wanted to add something to his training and my recommendation was not to. I said he could if he absolutely wants to but should be careful and my advise was to stick to the plan.
He said he is training according to the Black Book and I said (more than once) that I didn't know the content and couldn't give advise unless he provides a few details about his training programme.
This is getting extremely annoying and doesn't help anyone. Your putting words in my mouth and not reading my posts correctly.
I am more than happy to discuss the content of my posts. I think everyone got that you disagree with my advise and think I shouldn't give any and I don't see the point in discussing that any further. So unless you have something relevant to say, I am not going to reply to you anymore and justify myself. No offense.0
