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Saxo or Argos?

Ron StuartRon Stuart Posts: 1,242
edited December 2012 in Pro race
Ok, folks who do we want and why to be the last team to be accepted into road cycling's premier division for 2013 :?:

(lights blue touch paper and retires)
«13

Posts

  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,666
    Saxobank
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    Argos.

    Saxo have dirty bertie and Mr 60% and no care in the world for doping etc.

    Argos have been punching well above their weight and deserve World Tour. And with riders like Kittel speaking out about doping it is another plus.
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    Saxo is more than Alberto if he should be the reason not to choose them.

    I'd hate to see a team with 2 sprinters and nothing else getting the license. Kittel might be clever on twitter but good lord it's a boring team. Besides, Saxo-Tinkoff will get invites to any race they would be interested in anyway leaving out a Pro Conti-team every time. The team is way too strong and big to be anything but a WT-team.
  • Argos all the way.

    They seem like a well grounded grass roots team who have punched well above their weight. It would also be good to see a new team in there, plus I have some of their water bottles (silly reasoning I know).

    The dome headed one is going to be vex if it doesn't come off for Saxo. And as for Mr I blame the steak, well...
    Reporter: "What's your prediction for the fight?"
    Clubber Lang: "Prediction?"
    Reporter: "Yes. Prediction"
    Clubber Lang: "....Pain!!!"
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    Saxo is more than Alberto if he should be the reason not to choose them.

    I'd hate to see a team with 2 sprinters and nothing else getting the license. Kittel might be clever on twitter but good lord it's a boring team. Besides, Saxo-Tinkoff will get invites to any race they would be interested in anyway leaving out a Pro Conti-team every time. The team is way too strong and big to be anything but a WT-team.

    Why not give it to Argos then and it will be a win-win.
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • hstileshstiles Posts: 414
    I'd like to see them both in and Lampre booted out.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,195
    rozzer32 wrote:
    Argos.

    Saxo have dirty bertie and Mr 60% and no care in the world for doping etc.

    Argos have been punching well above their weight and deserve World Tour. And with riders like Kittel speaking out about doping it is another plus.

    100% This - send a message that dopers are not accepted in out sport!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,666
    ddraver wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    Argos.

    Saxo have dirty bertie and Mr 60% and no care in the world for doping etc.

    Argos have been punching well above their weight and deserve World Tour. And with riders like Kittel speaking out about doping it is another plus.

    100% This - send a message that dopers are not accepted in out sport!

    Yet Movistar, Astana, and Katusha would have a place?
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    ddraver wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    Argos.

    Saxo have dirty bertie and Mr 60% and no care in the world for doping etc.

    Argos have been punching well above their weight and deserve World Tour. And with riders like Kittel speaking out about doping it is another plus.

    100% This - send a message that dopers are not accepted in out sport!

    And the 17 other teams?...
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    rozzer32 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    Saxo is more than Alberto if he should be the reason not to choose them.

    I'd hate to see a team with 2 sprinters and nothing else getting the license. Kittel might be clever on twitter but good lord it's a boring team. Besides, Saxo-Tinkoff will get invites to any race they would be interested in anyway leaving out a Pro Conti-team every time. The team is way too strong and big to be anything but a WT-team.

    Why not give it to Argos then and it will be a win-win.

    Because Argos has absolutely nothing to offer.
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    Saxo is more than Alberto if he should be the reason not to choose them.

    I'd hate to see a team with 2 sprinters and nothing else getting the license. Kittel might be clever on twitter but good lord it's a boring team. Besides, Saxo-Tinkoff will get invites to any race they would be interested in anyway leaving out a Pro Conti-team every time. The team is way too strong and big to be anything but a WT-team.

    Why not give it to Argos then and it will be a win-win.

    Because Argos has absolutely nothing to offer.

    I'm sorry but that is incorrect. Saxo have one GC superstar. They are a one man band. The graph below makes for interesting reading (courtesy of Inrng).

    teamvictorieschart2012.jpg

    It's a graph of team victories during 2012. Argos are 6th on the list. Saxo doesn't even make it.
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    rozzer, what have happened to the team since the 1st of August?
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    rozzer, what have happened to the team since the 1st of August?

    Won 5 stages of the Vuelta, what has Saxo done all year apart from winning the Vuelta?
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    edited November 2012
    No. The TEAM. When I wrote that Argos has nothing offer you then said that Saxo is a one-man band.

    Not the results, but the team. What has happend to the team since 1st of August?

    We don't need graphs to make us realise that Argos has won more than Saxo this season. The license is for next season. Who has more to offer next season? I know who.
  • symosymo Posts: 1,743
    Good job Pat McQuaid is known for taking a stand against dopers; so Saxo in and Anti-doping Kittel out.

    Bertie - byword for 'unrepentance'.
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    we are the proud, the few, Descendents.

    Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    No. The TEAM. When I wrote that Argos has nothing offer you then said that Saxo is a one-man band.

    Not the results, but the team. What has happend to the team since 1st of August?

    We don't need graphs to make us realise that Argos has won more than Saxo this season. The license is for next season. Who has more to offer next season? I know who.

    A big GC man and then an average top 15 GC man. I see your point in that you're talking about Degenkolb and Kittel getting most of the wins. Who else got Saxo wins apart from Bertie? Griepel got loads of Lotto's wins. But if we are talking about next year then I'll point you to this graph.

    ridervictorieschart2012.jpg

    This is a graph of which riders got the most wins, yes Kittel and Degenkolb are right up there. But I point you to the name in 4th place. Heard of him? He has signed with Argos for next year, so they have 3 riders in the top 8. Again where are Saxo??
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    Again, you do not have to keep posting graph after graph to point out that Argos have more victories than Saxo in the 2012 season. It's hard not to have more victories that Saxo.

    While Reinhardt is without a doubt an interesting rider, he won't win any races next season if they, as you want, become Pro Tour Team. All he's has won are - to quote Cavendish - ''s'hit small races'. Let's not make him out to be the 3rd leg of Argos's stool next season because he has won stages in a race in Marokko...

    It's the license for 2013 it's about. Not which team won the most this season. The question was: Saxo or Argos to get the 2013 license. And Looking at the 2013 rooster at both teams, I know who has the most to offer cycling wise. I'm not that big of a fan of boring sprint finishes. That's what I'm basing it on.
  • Doping ... Our Sport ... Dirty ... Blah Blah ... Wah Wah ...

    It's the f'ing TV to you ... No more or less important than Hollyoaks ...

    How about you concentrate on where you park your car and what rubbish you put in what recycling bin ... No doubt just as dubious as the ethics of a pro cycling team ...

    FFS ...
  • rozzer32rozzer32 Posts: 3,561
    Doping ... Our Sport ... Dirty ... Blah Blah ... Wah Wah ...

    It's the f'ing TV to you ... No more or less important than Hollyoaks ...

    How about you concentrate on where you park your car and what rubbish you put in what recycling bin ... No doubt just as dubious as the ethics of a pro cycling team ...

    FFS ...

    28899833.jpg
    ***** Pro Tour Pundit Champion 2020, 2018, 2017 & 2011 *****
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    Doping ... Our Sport ... Dirty ... Blah Blah ... Wah Wah ...

    It's the f'ing TV to you ... No more or less important than Hollyoaks ...

    How about you concentrate on where you park your car and what rubbish you put in what recycling bin ... No doubt just as dubious as the ethics of a pro cycling team ...

    FFS ...

    gn1mx.gif
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479
    I'd like Argos to get it as it would show that a team can still start small and grow slowly and still reach the sports pinnacle, and that entering as a shiny new team with lots of money isn't the only way.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,195
    ThomThom wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    rozzer32 wrote:
    Argos.

    Saxo have dirty bertie and Mr 60% and no care in the world for doping etc.

    Argos have been punching well above their weight and deserve World Tour. And with riders like Kittel speaking out about doping it is another plus.

    100% This - send a message that dopers are not accepted in out sport!

    And the 17 other teams?...

    Well so f**king what. Theyve unfortunately got in via the points system but we have a "choice" between a team of young riders who have one of the healthiest doping attitudes in the sport vs Saxo....don't even have to finish really do I?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,947
    ddraver wrote:
    ...don't even have to finish really do I?

    Yes, you do.
    Otherwise you don't get the rosette and sash.

    Also, if you fade away like that, it's the moronic "Woo-Haa!" cycling crowd who gets to shriek the loudest... and in their world, that means they win. Intellectually, were you a high-court judge, it's the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears during a case and shouting "la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la" throughout all of the evidence - because you don't want to create a scene.
  • ilm_zero7ilm_zero7 Posts: 2,213
    I vote for Argos in, Saxo out - there was a debate that they should have been out last year because they were counting Bertie's banned point i think, but I very much agree with this

    "a "choice" between a team of young riders who have one of the healthiest doping attitudes in the sport vs Saxo.."


    I also note Lampre didnt make the cut on merit either, but then many of the continental teams dont want to either as the financial consequences of the top tier are more then their budgets permit - Eurocar for example
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  • ILM Zero7 wrote:
    I vote for Argos in, Saxo out - there was a debate that they should have been out last year because they were counting Bertie's banned point i think, but I very much agree with this

    "a "choice" between a team of young riders who have one of the healthiest doping attitudes in the sport vs Saxo.."


    I also note Lampre didnt make the cut on merit either, but then many of the continental teams dont want to either as the financial consequences of the top tier are more then their budgets permit - Eurocar for example
    I wish Europcar could be in the top level, they have a great team and more importantly a great attitude to racing, they always seem to be trying to win every stage of a race, especially through break aways
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,195
    Yep, there are plenty of other teams that should be in/should be out, but the UCI black-box has spat out a choice between these two names...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver wrote:
    Yep, there are plenty of other teams that should be in/should be out, but the UCI black-box has spat out a choice between these two names...


    Yes but its also a case of teams applying for the licence and being able to step up to Pro Tour with all the commitments it requires. The budget needed to run a WT team is considerably higher than Pro Conti - Pro Tour teams have to pony up to all WT races so bigger squad of riders and support staff needed - higher salary costs, equipment, logistics etc. Many teams just cant afford that and are happy staying Pro Conti, including Europcar.
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    edited November 2012
    Can anyone remember a race this season this year where Argos (I cant even remember what they were called before that) made an impact to your viewing pleasure? Popping out with 200m to go most certainly doesn't count.

    I can't. But maybe that was because they weren't in the best races all the time.

    Saxo isn't just about Contador. Look through the list of riders on their 2013 roster - I am sure there are many riders on there you will miss not seeing in PT races. (New signings etc: Bennati, Breschel, Roche, Kreuziger, Zaugg, Duggan, Sutherland)

    Now look through 2013 Argos roster and ask yourself the same question.

    Saxo's 2012 roster wasn't particularly interesting mainly because it was geared around Contador. 2013 is completely different as it has many other stand alone riders.

    I am all for clean cycling and encouraging development, but at the same time I want to be entertained. I don't want to watch a 2nd rate team with a bunch of riders I don't know - I want excitement and recognition.

    Even then, having a team based around a superstar like Contador would be good enough for me, simply because he will entertain me every single race he enters. Him not having that opportunity would negatively impact the racing.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • If you want to talk facts also:
    Saxo have 5948 CQ points this year. Only 1277 are Contadors, so 4671 without.
    Argos have 4967 - majority of these points are from sprints.

    Europcar have more points. I would 100% prefer to see Europcar in there than Argos. I'm not so sure why they have not been considered.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,195
    ddraver wrote:
    Yep, there are plenty of other teams that should be in/should be out, but the UCI black-box has spat out a choice between these two names...


    Yes but its also a case of teams applying for the licence and being able to step up to Pro Tour with all the commitments it requires. The budget needed to run a WT team is considerably higher than Pro Conti - Pro Tour teams have to pony up to all WT races so bigger squad of riders and support staff needed - higher salary costs, equipment, logistics etc. Many teams just cant afford that and are happy staying Pro Conti, including Europcar.

    I know, that's fine. I'm not saying that the UCI rules should be changed RIGHT NOW (but i would nt miss them), but that the rules and the way they have played out in 2012 has resulted in this decision.

    Would nt it be great if the UCI could make a statement on doping with this decision?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
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