Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Setarkos

Hi there,
I will be doing my first UK road race at Hillingdon tomorrow. I would like to advance to 3rd as quickly as possible to be able to race in the BUCS Road Race - only reason I'm starting to race here anyway.
I have done a fair bit of racing in Germany; mainly long distance and very mountainous though. I have a decent acceleration but not the greatest sprint on a flat.
I have been riding with quite a few 2nd and 3rd cats here in the UK and I think ability/speed wise I am somewhere in between.
As at Hillingdon the 3rd cats are starting 1min after 4ths I was wondering if it was a feasible strategy just to latch on to the 3rds? Can't be that difficult to keep their pace?
Any tips as to how to avoid a bunch sprint are appreciated. I'm assuming as like anywhere else in the lowest category, people don't know how to work in a break...
Cheers

Tom Dean

You are not allowed to get in the 3rd cat bunch.

JamesFree

Never seen anyone attempt to work with each other in the 4ths, so just hold out the sprint or maybe go with a lap to go

Setarkos

Tom Dean wrote:

You are not allowed to get in the 3rd cat bunch.

That makes a lot more sense, thank you.

How is that rule enforced though? What are you supposed to do if the 3rds are in front of you and you're catching up with them while on a break?
But I guess if it's not allowed and nobody is doing it, I won't either.

jibberjim

If you're catching them you can pass - they should let you through... The commissaires should shout at them too.

Given that you have 1 race to get your 10 points to move up (the points are reset on Dec 1) you need to win. Without a sprint your only chance is to get away. For 3/4 at Hillingdon I think the best bet to get a break is to get to the front of the bunch and slow the race down - people eventually get bored and attack. Do that a few times and then bridge up to the break and then you'll have to attack the break.

I'd just try and find the strong guys (Paul in Kingston Wheelers kit is strong and won't need the win to move up) and talk as early as you can - you may well need to wait until December though, but identify those guys who don't want a sprint as early as possible. If the race is hard enough though, you really don't need any sprint to score points.

Rodrego Hernandez

jibberjim wrote:

If you're catching them you can pass - they should let you through... The commissaires should shout at them too.

Given that you have 1 race to get your 10 points to move up (the points are reset on Dec 1) you need to win. Without a sprint your only chance is to get away. For 3/4 at Hillingdon I think the best bet to get a break is to get to the front of the bunch and slow the race down - people eventually get bored and attack. Do that a few times and then bridge up to the break and then you'll have to attack the break.

I'd just try and find the strong guys (Paul in Kingston Wheelers kit is strong and won't need the win to move up) and talk as early as you can - you may well need to wait until December though, but identify those guys who don't want a sprint as early as possible. If the race is hard enough though, you really don't need any sprint to score points.

I think points attained now carry over into 2013s total.

Best advice is to go with half a lap to go, any sooner than that and the strong 4th cat bunch engines will drag you back.

okgo

They're not I don't think, that is why they are called points grabbers...

Half a lap to go you will be going at well over 25 mph, you have to be pretty strong to be able to go away on your own from that. My advice would be to go earlier than that, or do what Jim said. It really is a circuit where having a sprint really helps (at the lower levels, I understand that breaks are the order of the day for the elite race there).

Setarkos

Well, higher cat races (apart from Elite maybe) are usually elimination races (at least on the continent) but that's not of any concern to me right now.

Can anyone quote a source on whether the points carry over or when they are reset?

My problem is that I'm 6'1" at 70 kg, so definitely not built for flats. I can make a decent effort for around 3-4min but on my own against a chasing field I doubt I can stay up front. My max effort is around 20W/kg but on the flat the total of 1400W isn't that great.
Also I love what I like to call "lactate sprints", ie 3-5% gradient towards the finish and a 30-60s sprint - but I won't get that at Hillingdon.

Is there going to be anything at Hog Hill this winter?

okgo

1400w will win pretty much all 3/4 crits, that is a pretty decent sprint if you can hold it for a few seconds?

Yes, lactate sprints are (if that is the term) are my strong point too, and that is how I got our of 4th cat at Hillingdon.

Setarkos

Okay, I'll go for an early sprint then probably. Unless I can chat up Paul and convince him to get on a break a couple of laps before the finish.

I looked at the Rules&Regulations of BC and it says 10 points have to be obtained in one season. So I'm assuming points will be reset on 1st January as they don't state any other definition for "season".

displacedaussie

20 watts/kg (if you can hold it for 5 seconds) puts you pretty high up the Watts table. Certainly a little bit above Cat 4 level.

http://www.truesport.com/Bike/2007/articles/druber/druber15.html

I won 4 cat 3/4 sprints this year and I'm sure I was nowhere near 1400 watts.

Based on your experience and apparent strength, just sit in as long as you can and go for it. I'm a big fan of those "lactate sprints" too in my training, and being able to hold them for 30-60 seconds already gives you a big advantage over a lot of 3rd and 4th cats, many of whom in my experience aren't able to hold a sprint for 20 seconds.

Setarkos

Well for 5 seconds it might be 1200-1300W rather than 1400W to be honest. But watts-wise I would fit in low Cat2, I guess. Have to get the points first, though.
In Germany we only have KT/A/B/C (compare to E/1/2/3) and C is already very competitive and anything that ends in a bunch sprint has at least five 80kg natural sprinters in it. Luckily bunch sprints are quite rare :P
So I wasn't sure what to expect in Cat 4.

ozzzyosborn206

I don't have a power meter but from what i have heard people say, 1400W sprint should piss all over a 4th cat bunch sprint, if you can do that after an hours race? best and safest bet is to move near the front for the last few laps as it gets hectic and nervous then on the horse shoes bend move forward kick hard out that corner and try solo it past the club house then around the last corner, if its a tailwind this should be pretty doable, if it is a head wind or big cross then sit in aslong as you can and sprint up the sheltered side

bigmat

Hog Hill is where its at for "lactate" sprint finishes - maybe not quite 60 seconds, but long enough to get found out if you go too early (my attempt to attack at the bell resulted in a horrible overhaul within sight of the line - its all a learning process, right?!). I have won sprints there but never for the win - breaks do get away fairly often. Winter series starts in the New Year - check out "events" on British Cycling website but I think the first one is on 12 January.

Points run to end of November I think, so as of 1 Dec it all starts again. Still, you get 10 points this month you're a 3rd cat, you get 10 points next month you're a 3rd cat, so not much difference (unless you come 2nd this month, in which case you'll have to start all over again).

Setarkos

Well, it would certainly be nice to win tomorrow, but I won't expect it. It's been a while since my last crit and it's my first time at Hillingdon. If the December points count for 2013 already, that's actually good news. If I don't get enough before Christmas I can get the remaining ones at Hog Hill.

Thanks for all the advice!

Edit: Can't find any events at Hog Hill on britishcycling.org.uk...
Edit2: Nevermind, didn't realise it is called Redbridge Cycling Centre.

jibberjim

So looking in detail in the rule books we actually believe points expire on December 31st. However, the December Hillingdon and Hog Hill Series are part of the 2013 racing year, not the 2012 racing year, so the points earnt in it do not count to your 2012 racing points - so even if you have 9 before the race scoring another won't increase your 2012 points total, so your 9 are effectively useless.

I was 4th in the 4th cats at hillingdon a few years back without breaking 800watts for 1 second (I broke 1200 a number of times in the race trying to get away)... There are plenty of 4th cats with more than 1400watt sprint - remember sub 1 minute power is pretty untrainable compared to anything longer so you generally have it no matter how good you are. The difference is in 4th cat racing so many of them will be too knackered to put it out. It's why 4th cats should never ever train their sprint power (their technique for sure) as it's not going to give them any returns compared to aerobic training.

Setarkos

Well, despite suboptimal form at the moment, threshold-wise 4th cat should not be a problem.

Regarding points: So they are reset on 1st Jan but effectively on 1st Dec, since after 1st Dec there are no more points to get and the points that I get in December will count for 2013, right?

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Well, despite suboptimal form at the moment, threshold-wise 4th cat should not be a problem.

At hillingdon if you're experienced, 2.5 w/kg should be plenty to stay in the bunch (not as easy as Goodwood when there's a giant field when I know a low 50's kg woman stayed in the 3rds men with just over 100watts - btw if you had a foreign licence at any sort of level you probably could've come in straight to 3rd when you called up BC to get your licence?

Setarkos wrote:

Regarding points: So they are reset on 1st Jan but effectively on 1st Dec, since after 1st Dec there are no more points to get and the points that I get in December will count for 2013, right?

That's my understanding yes.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

btw if you had a foreign licence at any sort of level you probably could've come in straight to 3rd when you called up BC to get your licence?

Thanks, I'll send them an email.

DavidJB

1400watts is elite bunch sprinting level...me thinks you're on a porky.

Setarkos

I can send you on of my workout files if you want to and max power is not that decisive in a (elite level) bunch sprint. You have to get into the right position (2min above threshold) and then maintain your sprint for 5-10 seconds. I'm not good at either, so my max effort is good for attacks, especially on a climb but not for a flat sprint...

And according to Allen/Coggans power profile 20W/kg is avg. cat1 and considering that you have a bunch of 80kg guys in there 1400W is rather cat2 level.

And of course max effort and what you can actually achieve at the end of a race are two very different things which I pointed out in on of my previous posts.
After a cat4 race though I think I'll get quite close to that.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

There are plenty of 4th cats with more than 1400watt sprint - remember sub 1 minute power is pretty untrainable compared to anything longer so you generally have it no matter how good you are.

I didn't want to leave this uncommented. Max Power and everything up to a minute is certainly trainable but it's not very cycling specific (which is probably what you meant). It's best trained in the gym and many novice cyclists may have high max wattages from other sports they might have done before. (Neglecting technique and bike control)

The difference is in 4th cat racing so many of them will be too knackered to put it out. It's why 4th cats should never ever train their sprint power (their technique for sure) as it's not going to give them any returns compared to aerobic training.

However I fully agree with that. Up to (and including) 2nd category threshold power and tactics are everything.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

I didn't want to leave this uncommented. Max Power and everything up to a minute is certainly trainable but it's not very cycling specific (which is probably what you meant).

Yep, but even good long term training you're unlikely to see gains more of more than 25%, but 100% gains in threshold are certainly not that unusual in novice cyclists.

okgo

DavidJB wrote:

1400watts is elite bunch sprinting level...me thinks you're on a porky.

Don't be silly. There will be plenty at other levels with that. I had that sort of sprint from day dot (in cycling) because S Jim says, you've either got it or you haven't, my max power hasn't really ever changed, and I don't bother training it. As said getting it out at the end of a race is important. And not everyone can.

maryka

Can I just say that your number 1 tactic tomorrow in the 4th cat race should be avoiding any and all numpties who are both desperate for points and can't ride around a corner or in a straight line to save their lives. Seriously, your biggest worry is not getting taken out in a crash.

If you've got the fitness, make the race as hard as possible, attack repeatedly if you can, see if you can get away either solo or with a few folks, and at a last resort save it for the final sprint. Being well-positioned in an E/1/2 race generally means a decent result because they know how to hold their line and not do dangerous and stupid things at high speed (usually). In a 4th cat race, all bets are off. You could be gunning for the win from 3rd wheel and have some guy run into you sideways, that's how bad it can be.

DavidJB

okgo wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

1400watts is elite bunch sprinting level...me thinks you're on a porky.

Don't be silly. There will be plenty at other levels with that. I had that sort of sprint from day dot (in cycling) because S Jim says, you've either got it or you haven't, my max power hasn't really ever changed, and I don't bother training it. As said getting it out at the end of a race is important. And not everyone can.

Sorry, I should have clarified a bit more...obviously wattage means little on its own. You could be a fatty pumping out 1600watts but getting no where because you're built like a tractor and have the endurance of a one legged sloth. 1400w for an elite, 'race weight' 10-11 stone is pretty decent imo (but as I said watts on its own mean nothing). I'm not a bunch sprinter, I have an OK sprint, however, put me up against some proper bunch sprinters and I'll get blown away. But at 3/4 it doesn't matter, I used to pull away 6-7 bike lengths at the end of a 3/4 crit...I may have not had the biggest power output but I had the fitness to be able to hit my peak at the end.

Lots of other factors aside from wattage play a factor including as you said actually having it left at the end of a race.

So yes my comment was 'silly' on it's own and will teach me not to half arsed post at work.

Setarkos

Did talk to Paul before the race (in fact he talked to me, someone must have shown this thread to him). Did try to get away with him early on but frankly thought he was a lot stronger and I wouldn't have much to contribute. Legs started feeling better a few laps in. Bridged together with Paul and two more on our wheels to a guy who spent the whole race at the front (he certainly would've deserved the win). The five of us stayed clear until the finish (overall about 2/3 of the race I think). Since points get reset next week I went for a suicide early surprise sprint because my position wasn't great coming onto the finishing straight but didn't have the legs (and I think nobody was really surprised ) So everyone was on my wheel and passed me.
Still not a bad result for the first race I guess, considering that must Hillingdon races end in a bunch sprint. But I once more realised that on the flat I am not much against mopeds like Paul. (Good work, mate and congratulations for 3rd cat). I think everyone else in our group advanced to 3rd today...

maryka wrote:

Can I just say that your number 1 tactic tomorrow in the 4th cat race should be avoiding any and all numpties who are both desperate for points and can't ride around a corner or in a straight line to save their lives. Seriously, your biggest worry is not getting taken out in a crash.

Yes, I was expecting something of the likes and moved was usually among the first 5 and then up front for most of the race. Cornering was indeed quite poor and I am a bit confused why so many people call Hillingdon a technical course. :?: You can take all the corners at full speed...

If you've got the fitness...

Don't really have the fitness at the moment (CTL ~30 for everyone who knows what that is) but I think it won't take me more than 3 or 4 races to get into 3rd.

jibberjim

Yep we tipped Paul off too. He's a strong rider but not much of a finish I think - he couldn't come around my leadout the other day on our training loop, so maybe a bunch engine - but it's a big one yep.

Despite what we said above, we now think the Cyclopark winter series is 2012 points until December 31st, so if you can get over to Cyclopark you can pick up your remaining points, but you should maybe check with the organiser. Either way I doubt you'll take long if you can be that comfortable on 30 CTL - have you considered training?

And no-one calls Hillingdon technical do they? It is compared to Dunsfold or Goodwood, which are really dull! - but it's not actually technical no. Cyclopark supposedly is much more (although I've never seen it, after my time racing)

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

Yep we tipped Paul off too. He's a strong rider but not much of a finish I think - he couldn't come around my leadout the other day on our training loop, so maybe a bunch engine - but it's a big one yep.

Now that he is in 3rd he should start to take shorter turns at the front when in a break. With 4 or more people 5-10s turns are much more efficient. Anyway without him, I'm not sure if we had made it

Despite what we said above, we now think the Cyclopark winter series is 2012 points until December 31st, so if you can get over to Cyclopark you can pick up your remaining points, but you should maybe check with the organiser.

Thanks for the tip, I sent an email to BC but I'll send one to the organisers as well.
Since nobody seems to be entirely sure, I was wondering what information all the assumptions are based on? I can't find anything on britishcycling.org.uk or in the event description regarding this.
In the rules and regulations it says 10 points have be gained in any one season but nowhere it is specified when a season starts or ends.

Either way I doubt you'll take long if you can be that comfortable on 30 CTL - have you considered training?

Haha, I'll take your advice into consideration.
I had my season highlight in late August and it was a complete disaster due to a stomach issue and I had trouble finding motivation to get back on the bike. I did a bit for the BUCS hill climb on 27th Oct but was very busy with uni. As of last sunday I have now picked up a weekly routine again.

And no-one calls Hillingdon technical do they? It is compared to Dunsfold or Goodwood, which are really dull! - but it's not actually technical no. Cyclopark supposedly is much more (although I've never seen it, after my time racing)

A few people told me that but it certainly isn't. Without trying to sound obnoxious; looking at some of the guys going around the bends, I can understand why they might call it technical.
But it really is not at all, which is good for a 4th cat race because it's less dangerous that way.

jibberjim

Setarkos wrote:

Now that he is in 3rd he should start to take shorter turns at the front when in a break. With 4 or more people 5-10s turns are much more efficient. Anyway without him, I'm not sure if we had made it

From Strava it looks like you had over 2 minutes by the end which is almost a lap?

Setarkos wrote:

Since nobody seems to be entirely sure, I was wondering what information all the assumptions are based on? I can't find anything on britishcycling.org.uk or in the event description regarding this.
In the rules and regulations it says 10 points have be gained in any one season but nowhere it is specified when a season starts or ends.

I think it's because there's not an official start/end - we know for sure that Hillingdon winter series is for the following year, it's been like that for ages. Until recently there didn't use to be winter races so the rules didn't matter. I fear what's written down hasn't caught up yet.

But it really is not at all, which is good for a 4th cat race because it's less dangerous that way.

I think it's a pretty good introduction circuit, but not a fun racing one, but it has its place for sure. Mind you I'm an absolutely useless racer anyway so no circuit is one I find enjoyable.

Setarkos

jibberjim wrote:

From Strava it looks like you had over 2 minutes by the end which is almost a lap?

We lapped quite a few single riders and 1 or 2 laps from the finish most of what was left of the field but I think there were still a few more riders in between.

Regarding points; according to David (organiser of of Winter in the Park Series) their points count until the end of March.
I hope the people from British Cycling get back to me with an answer because it gets more and more confusing.

Surely the points from Inverse RT will count until 31st Dec? So if Winter in the Park points count from the day obtained until March, it should be possible to combine the two before Christmas.
Also that opens the possibility for Imperial Hillingdon points to be counted from whenever they are obtained until next year and not just beginning in January?

You Brits sure can make things complicated