Power Meters - Feel

2

Comments

  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    amaferanga wrote:
    Some people? Who exactly?

    Straw Men.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I didn't mean you, why would you assume that? I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.

    Right.
    More problems but still living....
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

    They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    Some people? Who exactly?

    You don't need to look far mate.

    You don't know me from Adam so you've got no idea if I rely too much on power data or not. So your assertions are based on what a few folk post on some internet forums then? What a joker.

    I didn't mean you, why would you assume that? I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.
    Does that include you as someone who often quotes Coggan,and more often than not - entirely wrongly?
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.
    Knowing both of them personally, I can assure you Trev that you couldn't be more wrong on this.

    I have no idea who else you may be referring to, but neither of these guys presents the use of power meter data as something requiring a religious ceremony to be performed by others. Your statement is absurd.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

    They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    Some people? Who exactly?

    You don't need to look far mate.

    You don't know me from Adam so you've got no idea if I rely too much on power data or not. So your assertions are based on what a few folk post on some internet forums then? What a joker.


    I didn't mean you, why would you assume that? I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.
    Does that include you as someone who often quotes Coggan,and more often than not - entirely wrongly?

    I quoted Coggan's words correctly and in context. But why make this thread a continuation of other threads, you really must stop following me around.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.
    Knowing both of them personally, I can assure you Trev that you couldn't be more wrong on this.

    I have no idea who else you may be referring to, but neither of these guys presents the use of power meter data as something requiring a religious ceremony to be performed by others. Your statement is absurd.

    In my opinion their writings tend to concentrate too much on power meters and power meter software and not enough on other aspects of training. That does not mean I would not recommend their books.

    I can also state that from your many posts on here and timetrialling forum I would recommend your services as a coach, because I know you do take 'everything into account' not just the power meter data.
  • twotyred
    twotyred Posts: 822
    In my opinion their writings tend to concentrate too much on power meters and power meter software and not enough on other aspects of training.

    The clue is in the title "Training and Racing with a Power Meter"
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    In my opinion their writings tend to concentrate too much on power meters and power meter software and not enough on other aspects of training.

    I take it you've not read the book then, because your impression of it is way off.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    amaferanga wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

    They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    Some people? Who exactly?

    You don't need to look far mate.

    You don't know me from Adam so you've got no idea if I rely too much on power data or not. So your assertions are based on what a few folk post on some internet forums then? What a joker.


    I didn't mean you, why would you assume that? I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.
    Does that include you as someone who often quotes Coggan,and more often than not - entirely wrongly?

    I quoted Coggan's words correctly and in context. But why make this thread a continuation of other threads, you really must stop following me around.
    Don't flatter yourself. I follow the wake of your hilarious hate everything bullshit. You,yourself are not that important.

    You completely failed in the previous thread re quoting Coggan. But naturally the chances of you knowing that,understanding why or admitting to it are slim.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    In my opinion their writings tend to concentrate too much on power meters and power meter software and not enough on other aspects of training.

    I take it you've not read the book then, because your impression of it is way off.

    Book?
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    edited November 2012
    TMHNET.

    Thanks for your PM quoted below.

    Sent: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:49 pm
    From: T.M.H.N.E.T
    To: supersonic Trev The Rev

    Any chance that this bullshit instigating,trolling fuckwit is going to get banned soon?

    I cant recall a more destructive user on any forum ive frequented. Makes pseudonym being banned a bit of a joke

    memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=562446
    The Northern Ireland Thread
    Official Trainer Road Thread

    I think your PM sums you up rather well.

    Trev.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Im glad you liked it. Since you've posted it,lets see how many people agree
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    On the one hand, I've seen a few decent posts and reponses from Trev, there is a flicker of someone who has a decent contribution to make.........

    On the other hand, he's a bloody annoyance, and deliberately incites people.
  • Team4Luke
    Team4Luke Posts: 597
    some of my best performance including PB's are when my legs don't feel good. It's when you get upto holding speed that you actually know.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • GiantMike
    GiantMike Posts: 3,139
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Any chance that this bullsh!t instigating,trolling f@ckwit is going to get banned soon?

    I was worried there would be no memorable quotes in 2012. Thanks TMHNET.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
  • Team4Luke
    Team4Luke Posts: 597
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.


    that would be correct though surely regardless of whatever pedals used, strain guages are not inside pedals (with exception of pedal power measuring systems), the only differences would be the weight of a pedal that would have a minor perhaps unnoticeable reading difference. End of the day measuring power devices are only recording what force you can apply down through your leg, this simply relates to how strong your legs are and very little can be done to add to that strength, you can much much more improve your oxygens systems and ability to suffer more.
    There are days when you can give it some more that others, that's just how your body is feeling on various random days.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • GiantMike
    GiantMike Posts: 3,139
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps...

    Really? I would have thought that clip-in pedals had a better power transfer than flat pedals, hence their adoption by nearly all pro riders.

    Do you think that this would be the same for all riders or do you think you have a particularly 'mashing' technique? What kind of power and cadence are we talking here?
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    High cadence, low power - soft pedalling then.
    More problems but still living....
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
    How do pedals,which are no more than a connection between your foot and the crank - have any bearing on how much power YOU generate physically? When the generation of power ultimately lies in your legs and CV system?
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps...

    Really? I would have thought that clip-in pedals had a better power transfer than flat pedals, hence their adoption by nearly all pro riders.

    Do you think that this would be the same for all riders or do you think you have a particularly 'mashing' technique? What kind of power and cadence are we talking here?

    According to Wattbike my pedaling is pretty good, particularly at higher revs. Don't think my technique is particularly mashing. Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals & Garmin Vector all show I produce more power from the left leg at cadences up to 90 rpm where it evens up. This may be due to serious injuries to my right knee and hip. There is however, no evidence my right leg is weaker lifting weights, but I do wear shoes out more on the left shoe. I think that other than pulling up in a short hill climb, from a standing start or perhaps a match sprint that clip in pedals do not transfer power better than flat pedals. I did various tests at powers from 100watts up to over 900 watts. 60 second all out efforts, 4 minute all out efforts and 20 minute all out efforts. Even over 60 seconds I was unable to put more power using Look Keo Pedals or Look Keo Power Pedals or Garmin Vector Pedals.

    I'm sure Alex would have an opinion here and would be able to explain more.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    amaferanga wrote:
    High cadence, low power - soft pedalling then.

    Yes the Look Keo Power Pedals read about 20 watts low soft pedaling - no idea why.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
    How do pedals,which are no more than a connection between your foot and the crank - have any bearing on how much power YOU generate physically? When the generation of power ultimately lies in your legs and CV system?

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up. Or if you were holding say 300watts you would be less fatigued using the more efficient pedal system.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
    How do pedals,which are no more than a connection between your foot and the crank - have any bearing on how much power YOU generate physically? When the generation of power ultimately lies in your legs and CV system?

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up. Or if you were holding say 300watts you would be less fatigued using the more efficient pedal system.

    You said "I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals" Which implies that the pedal type has something to do with how you generate power. This isn't the case of course,and the point at which power is measured is irrelevant to the question.

    Generating power (aerobic generally) and transferring power(mechanical) are different things. The latter cannot change the former.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    edited November 2012
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
    How do pedals,which are no more than a connection between your foot and the crank - have any bearing on how much power YOU generate physically? When the generation of power ultimately lies in your legs and CV system?

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up. Or if you were holding say 300watts you would be less fatigued using the more efficient pedal system.

    You said "I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals" Which implies that the pedal type has something to do with how you generate power. This isn't the case of course,and the point at which power is measured is irrelevant to the question.

    Generating power (aerobic generally) and transferring power(mechanical) are different things. The latter cannot change the former.

    With shoes & cleats you can pull up more, push more at the top and scrape back more at the bottom but I was unable to transfer more power to the crank using the clipless pedals.

    Clipless pedals did not allow me to transfer more of my power to the crank.

    When people talk about power they invariably are talking about the power they are seeing recorded by the power meter not the total power their entire body is producing.
  • Herbsman
    Herbsman Posts: 2,029
    Trev The Rev wrote:

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up.
    Wrong.
    CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

    What did you test and what did you discover?

    That I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals and that Look Keo Power Pedals tend to underestimate power at high cadence at lower powers.
    How do pedals,which are no more than a connection between your foot and the crank - have any bearing on how much power YOU generate physically? When the generation of power ultimately lies in your legs and CV system?

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up. Or if you were holding say 300watts you would be less fatigued using the more efficient pedal system.

    You said "I generate the same power using flat pedals without clips & straps as using Look Keo Pedals" Which implies that the pedal type has something to do with how you generate power. This isn't the case of course,and the point at which power is measured is irrelevant to the question.

    Generating power (aerobic generally) and transferring power(mechanical) are different things. The latter cannot change the former.

    With shoes & cleats you can pull up more, push more at the top and scrape back more at the bottom but I was unable to transfer more power to the crank using the clipless pedals.

    Clipless pedals did not allow me to transfer more of my power to the crank.
    You're missing the point again/as usual
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Herbsman wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:

    Wattbike measures power at the crank so if one pedal type was more efficient at transferring power the meter should be able to pick it up.
    Wrong.

    Yes I was wrong. It measures from a load cell on the chain. My point being it measures the power after the pedals not at the pedals.
  • GiantMike
    GiantMike Posts: 3,139
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I think that other than pulling up in a short hill climb, from a standing start or perhaps a match sprint that clip in pedals do not transfer power better than flat pedals. I did various tests at powers from 100watts up to over 900 watts. 60 second all out efforts, 4 minute all out efforts and 20 minute all out efforts. Even over 60 seconds I was unable to put more power using Look Keo Pedals or Look Keo Power Pedals or Garmin Vector Pedals./quote]

    Interesting. Did your polar plot differ between flat pedals and clip-ins?
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    GiantMike wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I think that other than pulling up in a short hill climb, from a standing start or perhaps a match sprint that clip in pedals do not transfer power better than flat pedals. I did various tests at powers from 100watts up to over 900 watts. 60 second all out efforts, 4 minute all out efforts and 20 minute all out efforts. Even over 60 seconds I was unable to put more power using Look Keo Pedals or Look Keo Power Pedals or Garmin Vector Pedals./quote]

    Interesting. Did your polar plot differ between flat pedals and clip-ins?
    Do you mean the diagram on the wattbike display on the Polar computer used with the Look Keo Pedals? I only looked at power and left right balance. I did not download any data. Wish I had. The display on the wattbike looked pretty much the same but I was more interested in power and left right balance and seeing if the Power Pedals were giving the same or similar readings to the wattbike.

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