Power Meters - Feel

Trev The Rev

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?
Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

danowat

Very.

A power meter doesn't, and shouldn't replace feel or P.E. (IMO at least)

GiantMike

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?

How important to what? Racing? Training?

Trev The Rev wrote:

Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Yes, obviously. Why wouldn't it be? Athlete's are not machines.

But what do you mean by 'how an athlete feels'?

Trev The Rev

GiantMike wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?

How important to what? Racing? Training?

Trev The Rev wrote:

Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Yes, obviously. Why wouldn't it be? Athlete's are not machines.

But what do you mean by 'how an athlete feels'?

I'm thinking along the lines of how the athlete feels overall and within himself as well as specifically how his legs feel.
I'm also referring more to training than racing and in particular in relation to judging how recovered or fatigued and what type of session would be best.

Athletes are not machines which is why I think there is much more to proper training than power meter data alone.

danowat

Trev The Rev wrote:

GiantMike wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?

How important to what? Racing? Training?

Trev The Rev wrote:

Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Yes, obviously. Why wouldn't it be? Athlete's are not machines.

But what do you mean by 'how an athlete feels'?

I'm thinking along the lines of how the athlete feels overall and within himself as well as specifically how his legs feel.
I'm also referring more to training than racing and in particular in relation to judging how recovered or fatigued and what type of session would be best.

You'd have to be pretty stupid to continue with a workout if you felt you could maintain the power target because you were too fatigued.

I think you have this notion that people who use power meter's are autonomous drones who target the zone and nothing else, this really isn't the case.

GiantMike

Trev The Rev wrote:

Athletes are not machines which is why I think there is much more to proper training than power meter data alone.

Yes, there is. I think you'd struggle to find anybody who would say that power meter data alone was the key to 'proper training', although I would say that being able to objectively measure ones performance and comparing it to PE is better than using PE alone.

For me, some of my best sessions have been when I have 'tired legs' and some of my worst with 'fresh legs'. Go figure...

Trev The Rev

GiantMike wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Athletes are not machines which is why I think there is much more to proper training than power meter data alone.

Yes, there is. I think you'd struggle to find anybody who would say that power meter data alone was the key to 'proper training', although I would say that being able to objectively measure ones performance and comparing it to PE is better than using PE alone.

For me, some of my best sessions have been when I have 'tired legs' and some of my worst with 'fresh legs'. Go figure...

Yes this is one that crops up often. What distances are you referring to? You say sessions, so do you mean best performances or sessions that you got the most benefit from?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?
Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Of course. Always has been and always will be.

Now though we have ability to obtain some objective data to go with our subjective assessment. Great combination.

danowat

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?
Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Of course. Always has been and always will be.

Now though we have ability to obtain some objective data to go with our subjective assessment. Great combination.

Certainly is, gives the full picture, one without the other only tells half the story.

GiantMike

Trev The Rev wrote:

Yes this is one that crops up often. What distances are you referring to? You say sessions, so do you mean best performances or sessions that you got the most benefit from?

I mean performances of sessions. For example, completing Revolver rather than not completing it. I also mean performances, such as doing well or badly on a hill climb.

Sessions are part of a plan so it's hard to say which sessions you get the most benefit from.

Trev The Rev

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Now we have power meters and related software how important is feel or perceived exertion?
Is how the athlete feels before and after each training session important?

Of course. Always has been and always will be.

Now though we have ability to obtain some objective data to go with our subjective assessment. Great combination.

I agree. However, you hear so very little other than power meter data from some people, one would be forgiven for having to ask the question.

danowat

Power data is easy to quantify, it's a number, P.E. and feel are harder to quantify (I know there are P.E. scales, but I still believe peoples perception of P.E. differ from person to person.)

Trev The Rev

danowat wrote:

Power data is easy to quantify, it's a number, P.E. and feel are harder to quantify (I know there are P.E. scales, but I still believe peoples perception of P.E. differ from person to person.)

Agree with you. If only we could measure muscle fatigue, mental fatigue and everything else accurately and record it like we can power.

twotyred

For me, some of my best sessions have been when I have 'tired legs' and some of my worst with 'fresh legs'. Go figure...

Likewise. I've got back from a session thinking it hasn't gone that well only to find when I examined the power data that its been the best one of the year and I've lost count of sessions where I've started out thinking I was too tired to train effectively only to have a really good session.

The trouble with feel is you have to separate what your body is telling you from what your mind is telling you. The latter usually shouts loudest (and generally that its really suffering and you're trying to kill it) and you only hear from the former when it breaks or fails to perform.

Trev The Rev

twotyred wrote:

For me, some of my best sessions have been when I have 'tired legs' and some of my worst with 'fresh legs'. Go figure...

Likewise. I've got back from a session thinking it hasn't gone that well only to find when I examined the power data that its been the best one of the year and I've lost count of sessions where I've started out thinking I was too tired to train effectively only to have a really good session.

The trouble with feel is you have to separate what your body is telling you from what your mind is telling you. The latter usually shouts loudest (and generally that its really suffering and you're trying to kill it) and you only hear from the former when it breaks or fails to perform.

The real skill is in being able to predict and avoid this.

danowat

I think this is one of the big dividers that separates the good, from the great, the brain is very powerful, and has a good solid saftey buffer to stop you damaging yourself physically, I believe that top class sports peoples buffer is a lot smaller than us lowly amateurs when it comes to being able to push that bit further into the buffer.
I think it's something you can learn, however, I don't think it's easy, as you have to go into some very dark places to really discover your limits........

GiantMike

I agree. For me the darkest place is crit racing when you have no alternative than to respond to the challenge of others. As a 3rd Cat I hate racing in E/1/2/3/4 races as I find I'm thrashing myself just to stay with the bunch. I know I have to stay there other wise I'll get dropped and then lapped. So it's neither about power nor PE nor HR, it's just about surviving for as long as possible even if that means burying yourself, hoping that the pace will ease up before you blow up. I have never been able to simulate this in training.

ric/rstsport

two things Mike
1) why not use/do plenty of crits as training?
2) make sure you learn plenty of handling and tactic skills, so that the effort is reduced?

additionally, i've ridden plenty of e/1/2/3 or 1/2/3 crits that have been *easier* than 2/3 or 3 races even though they've been faster

GiantMike

Ric/RSTSport wrote:

two things Mike
1) why not use/do plenty of crits as training?
2) make sure you learn plenty of handling and tactic skills, so that the effort is reduced?

additionally, i've ridden plenty of e/1/2/3 or 1/2/3 crits that have been *easier* than 2/3 or 3 races even though they've been faster

I use the E/1/2/3/4 crits at Preston as training because they are so hard. I have never managed to finish without getting dropped. I use 2/3/4 Salt Ayre crits as a proper race but I get less training from them because I can stay in the bunch. While this may not make sense at first, sitting in the bunch is relatively easy as long as you can survive the many short-lived surges. Average power for a Preston race is around 270W and for a Salt Ayre around 240W, but both have 5-600W peaks.

Using a powertap during the races has taught me that it's the shorter bursts of power that make the difference between getting dropped or staying in the bunch and that's where I train the most now.

Herbsman

danowat wrote:

You'd have to be pretty stupid to continue with a workout if you felt you could maintain the power target because you were too fatigued.

:? :?:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Trev The Rev wrote:

danowat wrote:

Power data is easy to quantify, it's a number, P.E. and feel are harder to quantify (I know there are P.E. scales, but I still believe peoples perception of P.E. differ from person to person.)

Agree with you. If only we could measure muscle fatigue, mental fatigue and everything else accurately and record it like we can power.

You can if you've been assimilated by the Borg (scale).




IOW there is nothing wrong with assigning a quantitative value for a subjective sensation. It's a reasonably reliable method used in many sciences.

Herbsman

Trev

I understand that you are trying to understand the purpose of using a power meter, is this correct?

GiantMike

Hold on, hold on. I need to get some popcorn!!!

GiantMike

1 bag of salted, and 1 bag of toffee.

Off you go.....

danowat

Herbsman wrote:

Trev

I understand that you are trying to understand the purpose of using a power meter, is this correct?

I believe he is trying to debunk the use of power meters, again...........

Trev The Rev

Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

GiantMike

Trev The Rev wrote:

You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

What did you test and what did you discover?

amaferanga

Trev The Rev wrote:

Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

Some people? Who exactly?

Trev The Rev

amaferanga wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

Some people? Who exactly?

You don't need to look far mate.

amaferanga

Trev The Rev wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

Some people? Who exactly?

You don't need to look far mate.

You don't know me from Adam so you've got no idea if I rely too much on power data or not. So your assertions are based on what a few folk post on some internet forums then? What a joker.

Trev The Rev

amaferanga wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Absolutely not. I think a well calibrated power meter is a very good training tool. But I do think some people have a tendency to forget everything else and rely too much on power meter data. I also think you can train very effectively without one. I don't have a problem with power meters - when they work.

They are also good for testing aerodynamics and efficiency. You could use one to test pedals too. I did.

Some people? Who exactly?

You don't need to look far mate.

You don't know me from Adam so you've got no idea if I rely too much on power data or not. So your assertions are based on what a few folk post on some internet forums then? What a joker.

I didn't mean you, why would you assume that? I was referring more to Hunter Allen & Dr Andrew Coggan and their acolytes who post a lot on cycling forums.