29ers

supersonic

The question does arise - if your frame/fork can fit it with a 26er, maybe a larger set of tyres and slightly lower pressure may be the ideal set up?

ddraver

But then you get the disadvantages of using larger tyres - which is even more important for racers.

I'm not sure why some peeps find it so hard to accept that 29ers are faster but 26ers are more fun. Induviduals can make their choice based on whatever balance of those two float their particular boat.

The Rookie

ddraver wrote:

Seeing as I seem to be arguing about scientific tests a lot today (elsewhere), That looks pretty decent to me. Shame i can't get the mag in Holland though

You can access the data via MBUK.com, also I dare say if you PM someone with a copy they can scan it for you.......

njee20

The racers I know who race in the top 10 at the likes of Thetford, Gorrick with podiums in the 24hr events, they've all gone to £6k+ 29ers a while ago.

They're certainly more popular than ever before, there was a step change last year, but they're still not universal.

I'm not sure why some peeps find it so hard to accept that 29ers are faster but 26ers are more fun.

Because both of those are subjective?

supersonic

Very subjective! As an above rider finds, for him 29ers are more fun. Some find 26ers faster. Larger tyres can have advantages too. Again, subjective for the rider and what they prefer.

ddraver

So what if they re subjective? The rider rides whatever is best for the rider...Ok, so for a rider like Matt Page, there is a benefit doing tests like the above as he makes a living from it, but to most of the rest of us?

The reasons why a Trek Fuel is better for Rider X than a Marin Mount Vision or a Spesh FSR are totally subjective too, but that does nt mean they are nt valid!

What I don't understand is why people seem to think that 29ers are either Right or Wrong. Full Stop.

supersonic

But you just said 29er are faster, 26ers are more fun - is that just for you or in general? Otherwise is a pretty objective statement!

ddraver

Oh I see..

Based on the multiple reports I ve seen that say 29ers cover ground more rapidly (and not really believing that it's all a massive marketing poly by "the man", I ve never seen anything that would suggest the bike industry is even remotely organised enough to do something like that!)

Personally, I don't care if I take 2hrs or 2hrs 5 mins to do the Marin Trail as long I have a good ride, However, If njee was racing the Marin Trail he would obviously care very much!

supersonic

I'd take the 650b, maybe it would be 2 hrs and 2.5 mins ;-)

I like that we have choice, and as you (and I, and many others say), you need to ride what suits. I hope 26ers do not die out, as there are plenty of people who have tried many bikes and sizes and still prefer them. In the future I don't want to be forced to ride a certain size because there are no good options left in 26er size.

ddraver

Well you re more connected that me Sonic, so I ll bow to your knowledge, but I don't think that's likely is it?

I get the feeling that European Brands are still very much behind 26in, even if our US cousins are not.

supersonic

Doddy from MBUK thinks that 26er will be dead in a few years (according to Shaggy Will), and he is a lot more connected than me lol. Maybe they will become niche products, a bit like high end steel frames? Hopefully there will be 3 sizes of equal share, but I can't see manufacturers producing 3 of each, and it would be a nightmare for shops and stock.

I place a lot of emphasis on weight, and I love that snap acceleration out of corners that my bike gives. It feels a bit more dulled with a larger size. Question now is: why don't I ride a 24 inch wheel then? Well, the 26er gives me the best of all worlds I feel, and seems more agile. Same goes for 650b for some people, and 29er for others. If bigger/smaller was better, the sizes would be more polarised than they are.

In addition, and it sounds insane, I have toyed with a custom build with 24 inch front wheel and a longer fork (not on the Zaskar!). Steve Worland tried this once, said it was a lot of fun and worked well! To add to that, I think dual wheel sizes will become more common too.

ddraver

Do you think it will be in favour of 29ers (or any other wheel size) only? Or will it be a 29/27.5 mix?

supersonic

Too early to tell for me - the 650b size is gaining momentum, with taglines like 'the best of both worlds'. I can't see the likes of Spesh backing down from what they have done, but I get the feeling they have put their eggs in one basket which may be to their detriment in the future. With some saying one size is better than the other, it is confusing the market though.

ddraver

I can't see the industry breaking away completely from what consumer want though, If the majority of british riders either stick with or buy niche 26ers, I can't see the big boys just ignoring that and stubbornly offering 29ers only, but again, I'm not in a position to know...

supersonic

I am in no better position than you though really (or anyone!) with regards to reading the market and seeing what is out there on the trails.

The long travel hardtail is quite focused to the UK, and quite a few people still produce these, so I would hope that the UK market is listened to. I definitely do think that brits don't like being told what to ride!

njee20

The issue as I see it (and I've mentioned it before) is innovation in 26". SS you say you like the snap out of corners, but what if no one continues to push 26" wheels?

Tune are introducing new ultra light XC wheelsets, but only in 650b and 29". If Stan's drop the Podium MMX you could get 29er wheelsets lighter than 26".

supersonic

If 26ers die off I will be extremely disappointed. I would be forced to go for 650b, if I carried on in the sport. The cynic in me thinks that the manufacturers know full well that they are still popular and perform well, but by killing them off and pushing other sizes so heavily they force many people to change their bikes.

Luckily I can still (just!) get V braked equipped stuff lol.

njee20

I don't think they'll die off, but I can really see companies stopping to innovate in 26" and dropping certain products (like XC race bikes and bits).

V-brakes is a good example - you can get disc rims weighing 100g+ less than even the lightest v-brake rim. Yes you can still get bits, but disc parts are often lighter.

supersonic

I like the simplicity of Vs - it is only in the last 4 years I have gone to discs. They have got much better and lighter though!

For XC and riding on the lanes on my Zaskar LE, the Vs work perfectly. And I think for a lot of people, who want to ride like this, they are still a good idea.

njee20

Oh yeah, not disputing why someone would want to run v's, just saying that it's a good example of something where initially there were weight advantages, but innovation just stopped dead! M980 brake levers are essentially the same as M950s from 1997! 26" bikes of some ilks (ie XC race bikes) could go a similar way.

supersonic

Same with gears, more is better. Well now less is more, with more at the back lol, ie 1x11. This is an innovation in my book, big range that can be had with one cog. 10 speed though? A lot of bumph with that.

mattpage

Torres wrote:

The test looks like the most scientific that's been done to date; but I agree with the comment at the bottom of the article; publishing the power data would make the analysis better.

After all; it's all well and good saying 29ers are faster, but if you're putting in more effort then of course that's going to be the case.

As shown in the printed article, power output was kept as consistent as possible across all 12 laps.
Average power was 227 watts, +/- 1-2 watts. Given the constant power and nature of the climb average power is the same as normalised power.

I could make graphs available, but to be honest its pointless. The absolute numbers are all that is needed.

Too many people have views on things they have never ridden and dismiss them without even trying.

Torres

Cheers Matt, I haven't seen the printed article so I'm not sure what information was presented. What I was getting at was being able to see a comparison of both the lap times and the average power output for the lap. I know it's impossible to replicated the same power output in these types of test; but seeing as the margins aren't really that significant I was concerned that a small variation in power could be causing a bias.

njee20

Not if it's 1-2 watts variation, I'm bloody impressed Matt could keep it that consistent :-)

The Rookie

Very Impressive.......

26ers at the lower end will stay for a long time - there is too much tooling laid down, but yes advancements may stop, I can also see a lot of people using 26" in a 27" (650B - it's not 27.5" that's just conveniant for marketing) frame as it will just mean an extra 1/2" clearance which is hardly a gaping chasm, The data really does suggets that 650B is the best of both worlds, in fact you could say the best of all three as you could have the same bike with 650B and 26" wheelsets for it depending on what you want on a particular ride!

Torres

njee20 wrote:

Not if it's 1-2 watts variation, I'm bloody impressed Matt could keep it that consistent :-)

Ah sorry, I thought that was the average for the whole test, not for each run. In that case that's bloody impressive!

RIKO

Having ridden a couple of top end 29ers (Santa Cruz Tallboy and Intense Spider) I can see if you are doing a lot of miles they could be a good option and at speed they feel good (tbh they should at that price!) However I felt a slower speeds they felt very "big" (and I'm 6" 2") and the Intense particularly felt quite ungainly. I certainly wouldn't change from my current 26" wheel bikes which feel a lot more chuckable and more fun.
My biggest issue at the minute is the way the industry is trying to shove the new wheel sizes down your neck. They say it's from rider demand which with 29ers there was with companies like Niner, I don't see this with 650b plus whole ranges seem to be going to one wheel size so the whole wheel size choice idea seems to be going out the window. And this is coming from someone that is really into new bike tech!

The Rookie

Just figured my 26" frame will happily take a 65B wheel and tyre......so I'm future proofed on my 2006 Carrera!

rockmonkeysc

I don't think 26" will die. There are too many 26" bikes in use, and will be for at least another 10 years for wheel and tyre manufacturers to stop development & production.
Big wheels don't work too well on DH bikes at the moment either because of the longer chainstays needed with a big wheel and 8" - 10" suspension. The idea of needing less travel with big wheels doesn't work when you're using that travel to soak up big landings to flat. Also the gyroscopic effects at 40+mph will be much greater.
I'm not convinced by 650B, I don't see that it's going to be noticeably better than 26". I will try one though.
The only change bigger wheels has meant for me is that I'm now saving my MBUK subscription because I got so bored of reading the same articles about why you have to have bigger wheels every month.

bennett_346

If 29 inch wheels are so good for speed why don't roadies use them?