Are clipless pedals faster?
Comments
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^ as above, I don't understand why you re struggling with this so much...You ll be telling us that Dr Coggon says that changing the brand of bar tape has no effect on hematocrit or that the colour of you shorts has no effect on the length of your arms next...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
It is time for others to post some evidence - if they have any.
If you can prove that clipless pedals do enable you to hold a given power for longer or produce more power for a given time, produce the evidence you have. Post the studies.0 -
My study is that when I was four I'd not go far on my tricycle.
Now i've found clipless and I can ride more than 100 miles.
I think that's pretty conclusive.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:It is time for others to post some evidence - if they have any.
If you can prove that clipless pedals do enable you to hold a given power for longer or produce more power for a given time, produce the evidence you have. Post the studies.
I'm willing to treat it in the exact same way and will alter my opinions accordingly...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
erm,Thus far, Smith has only been testing chains, rear derailleur pulleys and pedals, but hubs and bottom brackets are in the works.
Among his more interesting findings:
-a 3-watt difference between two of the most commonly available new chains
-a 1.5w savings by changing pulleys
-1+w savings by switching to and from certain pedals
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/f ... ncy-35694/0 -
Did anyone in the thread actually state that clipless pedals made them faster,in a serious post not intended as humour? Once again, I fear you are attempting to weasel your way out of a bit of a predicament. Not for the first time might I add, and not for the first time to questions I have asked.Trev The Rev wrote:It is time for others to post some evidence - if they have any.
If you can prove that clipless pedals do enable you to hold a given power for longer or produce more power for a given time, produce the evidence you have. Post the studies.
You have claimed for 2 perhaps 3 pages now that Dr Coggan said there was no difference in pedals, and your source relating to something entirely different just didn't hold itself up.
It's about time you actually provided something to back up claims you make.0 -
ddraver wrote:^ as above, I don't understand why you re struggling with this so much...You ll be telling us that Dr Coggon says that changing the brand of bar tape has no effect on hematocrit or that the colour of you shorts has no effect on the length of your arms next...
I can tell you that Dr Coggan has tested front brakes in a wind tunnel and has found a 3 watt saving.0 -
In a study on skinsuits probably.Trev The Rev wrote:ddraver wrote:^ as above, I don't understand why you re struggling with this so much...You ll be telling us that Dr Coggon says that changing the brand of bar tape has no effect on hematocrit or that the colour of you shorts has no effect on the length of your arms next...
I can tell you that Dr Coggan has tested front brakes in a wind tunnel and has found a 3 watt saving.0 -
For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t0 -
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
In a study on skinsuits probably.Trev The Rev wrote:ddraver wrote:^ as above, I don't understand why you re struggling with this so much...You ll be telling us that Dr Coggon says that changing the brand of bar tape has no effect on hematocrit or that the colour of you shorts has no effect on the length of your arms next...
I can tell you that Dr Coggan has tested front brakes in a wind tunnel and has found a 3 watt saving.
No a specific test on front brakes.
http://www.tririg.com/articles.php?id=2 ... hite_Paper
http://www.tririg.com/docs/omega_whitepaper.pdf0 -
I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
Study - related - to - ENDURANCE - not - pedal systems - therefore - conclusion - doesn't - relate - to - the - question.
Try again.0 -
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
Study - related - to - ENDURANCE - not - pedal systems - therefore - conclusion - doesn't - relate - to - the - question.
Try again.
Post some evidence which proves clipless pedals enable you to cycle faster or produce more power for the same exertion.0 -
I don't recall saying they did so I have nothing to prove or provide evidence of. Yet another weaseling attempt.Trev The Rev wrote:T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
Study - related - to - ENDURANCE - not - pedal systems - therefore - conclusion - doesn't - relate - to - the - question.
Try again.
Post some evidence which proves clipless pedals enable you to cycle faster or produce more power for the same exertion.0 -
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I don't recall saying they did so I have nothing to prove or provide evidence of. Yet another weaseling attempt.Trev The Rev wrote:T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
Study - related - to - ENDURANCE - not - pedal systems - therefore - conclusion - doesn't - relate - to - the - question.
Try again.
Post some evidence which proves clipless pedals enable you to cycle faster or produce more power for the same exertion.
Why do you have to get so personal?0 -
I got personal by simplifying something that you're publically making a meal out of understanding? You should appreciate the gesture in that I'm willing to not only help you out,but give you multiple chances to redeem yourself.Trev The Rev wrote:T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I don't recall saying they did so I have nothing to prove or provide evidence of. Yet another weaseling attempt.Trev The Rev wrote:T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
Study - related - to - ENDURANCE - not - pedal systems - therefore - conclusion - doesn't - relate - to - the - question.
Try again.
Post some evidence which proves clipless pedals enable you to cycle faster or produce more power for the same exertion.
Why do you have to get so personal?
Never bite the hand that feeds you.
But back on topic.
Here is your chance to redeem yourself.T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Ok so list some other relevant studies on the subject.Trev The Rev wrote:To quote Dr Coggan
Quote, Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.End quote.
There was no difference in Vo2max, lactate threshold or efficiency.Trev The Rev wrote:Are clipless pedals faster? If so why?
Which thisThere was no difference in Vo2max, lactate threshold or efficiency.
Is not.
How does a study on components of endurance,in which pedal systems were not a subject of testing - equate to the conclusion that there was zero difference between pedal systems, when the testing undertaken was related to vo2max, LT and efficiency and not mechanical differences or otherwise in pedals?
Where are these studies that show no benefit Dr Coggan speaks of? You may be quoting him,but the claim and therefore burden of proof is currently on you.
Hardly surprising at this point.thegreatdivide wrote:And the winner of sh*t thread of the week is.....0 -
And the winner of sh*t thread of the week is.....0
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Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
TH has said it already, but for the 5 th time, everything in that quote is either wrong or, at best, irrelevantWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I'll ask you again. Have you tried sprinting out of hairpins every thirty seconds during an hour long crit, using flat pedals?Trev The Rev wrote:It is time for others to post some evidence - if they have any.
If you can prove that clipless pedals do enable you to hold a given power for longer or produce more power for a given time, produce the evidence you have. Post the studies.
And an additional question. Given that the benefit of using clipless pedals isn't increased speed, why does it matter whether or not they make you faster?CAPTAIN BUCKFAST'S CYCLING TIPS - GUARANTEED TO WORK! 1 OUT OF 10 RACING CYCLISTS AGREE!0 -
+1 on this. Agree totally, even though my personal preference is for flatsSimon Masterson wrote:This should be fun...
I really don't see why this merits debate. There are plenty of idiots in cycling who are easily persuaded that an awful lot of things will make them faster. It only has to have carbon fibre in the construction somewhere.
However, as any person with a brain can tell, fundamentally they can be no faster than any passive aid. A bicycle transmission can't increase the amount of force that the rider can deliver into it any more than one hammer can knock in a nail better than another. The differences in either case are secondary, whether they're a more positive feel for the rider or a better heft.
Clipless pedals and toe clips and straps work by securing the rider's feet; allowing him or her to transfer power with confidence at an optimal (not too fast, not too slow, but probably higher than they could comfortably do on a plain platform) cadence. Rather than repositioning their foot throughout the stroke to keep it on the platform, the rider is able to produce a steady rhythm, and there is no chance that a foot will slip off and end up in the front wheel (at worst).
They are an effective tool to the cyclist. I dont see what more needs to be said. What's next: 'Are light bikes faster?'0 -
Clipless pedals might make you faster but helmets make you slower.
I wore a helmet for the first time in 9 mths on Thursday and i ended up 1.6mph down on my usual average for that route, you might as well have a parachute dragging behind you.0 -
Should the question really be "Are clipless pedals pedals more efficient?" rather than simply "faster"?
Either way I don't really care and will carry on with clipless, however I would recommend reading 'cutting edge cycling-Advanced training for advanced cyclists' it's quite academic and IMO well written and shows evidence of research in a number of areas. There is also a table showing the difference in wheel types on different climbs for different levels of athletes, which concludes that lighter wheels do make a difference on climbs! Which may help settle an argument on here a while ago!!0 -
Yes, they are faster, using them you will gain at least 30% more power because they allow you to complete a smooth, seamless revolution without having to let up due to your foot sliding from the pedal (basically). I don't pull up hard on the back of the stroke, but simply allow my foot to move to it's desired position from the 'ankle flick'.
It's better described here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spaNYn9MeMc
One thing which I want to point out to anyone who may want to try these. I find this to be extremely important. When you approach a point at which you need to un-lock your foot, say at a stop light, after you actually do this, pay attention to the fact that if you need to pedal a bit further and rest that foot onto the pedal lightly and hit some bumps or whatever your foot may end up re-locked into the pedal without your realizing it. Try to keep that foot away from it's locked position.2011 Giant Defy 30 -
thecryof wrote:Yes, they are faster, using them you will gain at least 30% more power because they allow you to complete a smooth, seamless revolution without having to let up due to your foot sliding from the pedal (basically). I don't pull up hard on the back of the stroke, but simply allow my foot to move to it's desired position from the 'ankle flick'.
It's better described here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spaNYn9MeMc
One thing which I want to point out to anyone who may want to try these. I find this to be extremely important. When you approach a point at which you need to un-lock your foot, say at a stop light, after you actually do this, pay attention to the fact that if you need to pedal a bit further and rest that foot onto the pedal lightly and hit some bumps or whatever your foot may end up re-locked into the pedal without your realizing it. Try to keep that foot away from it's locked position.
This is not in fact the case. Please post any evidence you have to back this up.
Here are 2 interesting studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807
Int J Sports Med. 2008 Oct;29(10):817-22. Epub 2008 Apr 17.
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.
Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A.
Source
Institut für Sport und Sportwissenschaft, Universität Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany. guillaume.mornieux@sport.uni-freiburg.de
Abstract
The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Jun;39(6):991-5.
Effect of pedaling technique on mechanical effectiveness and efficiency in cyclists.
Korff T, Romer LM, Mayhew I, Martin JC.
Source
Brunel University, Centre for Sports Medicine and Human Performance, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UK. thomas.korff@brunel.ac.uk
Abstract
PURPOSE:
To optimize endurance cycling performance, it is important to maximize efficiency. Power-measuring cranks and force-sensing pedals can be used to determine the mechanical effectiveness of cycling. From both a coaching and basic science perspective, it is of interest if a mechanically effective pedaling technique leads to greater efficiency. Thus, the purpose of this study was to determine the effect of different pedaling techniques on mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency during steady-state cycling.
METHODS:
Eight male cyclists exercised on a cycle ergometer at 90 rpm and 200 W using four different pedaling techniques: preferred pedaling; pedaling in circles; emphasizing the pull during the upstroke; and emphasizing the push during the downstroke. Each exercise bout lasted 6 min and was interspersed with 6 min of passive rest. We obtained mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency using pedal-reaction forces and respiratory measures, respectively.
RESULTS:
When the participants were instructed to pull on the pedal during the upstroke, mechanical effectiveness was greater (index of force effectiveness=62.4+/-9.8%) and gross efficiency was lower (gross efficiency=19.0+/-0.7%) compared with the other pedaling conditions (index of force effectiveness=48.2+/-5.1% and gross efficiency=20.2+/-0.6%; means and standard deviations collapsed across preferred, circling, and pushing conditions). Mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency during the circling and pushing conditions did not differ significantly from the preferred pedaling condition.
CONCLUSIONS:
Mechanical effectiveness is not indicative of gross efficiency across pedaling techniques. These results thereby provide coaches and athletes with useful information for interpreting measures of mechanical effectiveness.
also of interest
http://www.plan2peak.com/files/32_artic ... hnique.pdf
There really is very little research and I am unable to find any research whatever that proves clipless pedals enable you to ride a bike faster.
Clipless pedal, shoe & cleat systems are heavier, add unnecessary complication with extra parts to maintain, require special shoes and cleats which adds expense and you can't walk properly in them when you get off the bike.
Lightweight shoes on flat pedals are cheaper, allow you to generate the same power, save weight and are possibly more aerodynamic than clipless pedal systems. You can also walk or run in the same shoes. Before spending your hard cash or plastic credit, ask yourself if you really need this added complication.0 -
Trev The Rev wrote:This is not in fact the case. Please post any evidence you have to back this up.
Here are 2 interesting studies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807
Int J Sports Med. 2008 Oct;29(10):817-22. Epub 2008 Apr 17.
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling.
Mornieux G, Stapelfeldt B, Gollhofer A, Belli A.
Source
Institut für Sport und Sportwissenschaft, Universität Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany. guillaume.mornieux@sport.uni-freiburg.de
Abstract
The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Jun;39(6):991-5.
Effect of pedaling technique on mechanical effectiveness and efficiency in cyclists.
Korff T, Romer LM, Mayhew I, Martin JC.
Source
Brunel University, Centre for Sports Medicine and Human Performance, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UK. thomas.korff@brunel.ac.uk
Abstract
PURPOSE:
To optimize endurance cycling performance, it is important to maximize efficiency. Power-measuring cranks and force-sensing pedals can be used to determine the mechanical effectiveness of cycling. From both a coaching and basic science perspective, it is of interest if a mechanically effective pedaling technique leads to greater efficiency. Thus, the purpose of this study was to determine the effect of different pedaling techniques on mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency during steady-state cycling.
METHODS:
Eight male cyclists exercised on a cycle ergometer at 90 rpm and 200 W using four different pedaling techniques: preferred pedaling; pedaling in circles; emphasizing the pull during the upstroke; and emphasizing the push during the downstroke. Each exercise bout lasted 6 min and was interspersed with 6 min of passive rest. We obtained mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency using pedal-reaction forces and respiratory measures, respectively.
RESULTS:
When the participants were instructed to pull on the pedal during the upstroke, mechanical effectiveness was greater (index of force effectiveness=62.4+/-9.8%) and gross efficiency was lower (gross efficiency=19.0+/-0.7%) compared with the other pedaling conditions (index of force effectiveness=48.2+/-5.1% and gross efficiency=20.2+/-0.6%; means and standard deviations collapsed across preferred, circling, and pushing conditions). Mechanical effectiveness and gross efficiency during the circling and pushing conditions did not differ significantly from the preferred pedaling condition.
CONCLUSIONS:
Mechanical effectiveness is not indicative of gross efficiency across pedaling techniques. These results thereby provide coaches and athletes with useful information for interpreting measures of mechanical effectiveness.
also of interest
http://www.plan2peak.com/files/32_artic ... hnique.pdf
There really is very little research and I am unable to find any research whatever that proves clipless pedals enable you to ride a bike faster.
Clipless pedal, shoe & cleat systems are heavier, add unnecessary complication with extra parts to maintain, require special shoes and cleats which adds expense and you can't walk properly in them when you get off the bike.
Lightweight shoes on flat pedals are cheaper, allow you to generate the same power, save weight and are possibly more aerodynamic than clipless pedal systems. You can also walk or run in the same shoes. Before spending your hard cash or plastic credit, ask yourself if you really need this added complication.
Please stop confusing efficiency and power. Your own source states that they increased the power output (see my bold).
More power = faster.
More efficient = same speed for longer.
Any study that is testing with a constant power output can only be testing the latter.2010 Cannondale CAAD9 Tiagra0 -
ddraver wrote:This is better Trev, you are learning!
Are you learning anything?
So is there any evidence clipless pedals will help you ride a bike faster over a given distance of say 10 or 25 miles?0 -
Could nt care less to be honest, a long as you re not abusing the science I'm fine.
I use them because they are the best way of keeping my feet on the pedals, which is more comfortable for a long ride. Do I miss them riding the Dutch bike 10 mins to work? No. Would I miss them riding 100k...definitely. A comfortable saddle that fits the rider doesnt affect the power you produce in a 10 min lab test, but does it make a ride faster by virtue of the rider being comfortable? Oh hell yes!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:Trev The Rev wrote:For the final time Dr Coggan says,
Quote;Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.End Quote
It is time for others to back up their argument with evidence.
t
TH has said it already, but for the 5 th time, everything in that quote is either wrong or, at best, irrelevant
Are you saying that Dr Andrew Coggan is wrong here?
And for the record I am not abusing science, here is again my previous exchange with Dr Coggan,
About a year ago asked Andrew Coggan this,
Seriously - has anyone ever done or even seen any research that proves it is faster to have the feet clipped, bolted or strapped to the pedals, other than from a standing start or up very steep hills where there is an advantage from being able to pull up?
Andrew Coggan's reply to my question was,
QUOTE (Andrew Coggan @ Dec 13 2011, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.
BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.
That said, I'm not about to give up my cleated shoes and pedals, if only for the security factor.
And on 15th December 2011
Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:34 PM
QUOTE (Dehydrated Horse @ Dec 15 2011, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Andrew,
Any more info on those tests? Were the tests comparing no clips & straps to nothing, or clips & straps to cllipless pedals?
Thanks
Dehydrated Horse
Andrew's reply,
Quote : Sorry, missed this before...
Clipless pedals were just gaining popularity when we did our study, so we compared clips/straps vs. no means of attachment. The results are described briefly at the top of page 2626 (in the 2nd column) in this paper:
http://wustl.academia.edu/AndrewRCoggan ... _2622-2630 END Quote.0
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