Are clipless pedals faster?

Sprool

Bustacapp wrote:

I like the option of sticking both feet out to the side as I descend mighty hills like some character off Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

And the extra drag induced saves lots of brake block rubber when you want to shave a few mph off your descent speed.

Pru

DesB3rd wrote:

don't quote me

Ahahahaa

Herbsman

Fool. Have you tried sprinting out of hairpins every thirty seconds during an hour long crit, using flat pedals?

tiredofwhiners

Trev The Rev wrote:

Dr Andrew Coggan found that clipless pedals are not faster and do not improve power or efficiency when compared to clips & straps or sports shoe on flat pedal.

http://www.academia.edu/238318/Coyle_EF ... _2622-2630

I have scanned that link and can see lots of complex stuff about muscles and energy but nothing at all about testing people with different types of pedals.

can you point out the bit I am clearly not seeing ?

simon_masterson

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Dr Andrew Coggan found that clipless pedals are not faster and do not improve power or efficiency when compared to clips & straps or sports shoe on flat pedal.

http://www.academia.edu/238318/Coyle_EF ... _2622-2630

I have scanned that link and can see lots of complex stuff about muscles and energy but nothing at all about testing people with different types of pedals.

can you point out the bit I am clearly not seeing ?

There's a very small section in which this is mentioned; it's practically a footnote.

lostboysaint

Trev The Rev wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

No, they're the same speed as ordinary pedals.

I assume you're talking about dropping them from a building or something.

They may help YOU pedal more efficiently and encourage you to become a better and faster rider though.

How do they help one become a better of faster rider? Do you have any evidence?

Quote fail.

Try reading rather than looking.

NITR8s

Simon Masterson wrote:

than one hammer can knock in a nail better than another. '

Wrong! a hammer with better weight distrubition would work better than a pourly designed hammer, dont you know anything about physics.

Trev The Rev

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Dr Andrew Coggan found that clipless pedals are not faster and do not improve power or efficiency when compared to clips & straps or sports shoe on flat pedal.

http://www.academia.edu/238318/Coyle_EF ... _2622-2630

I have scanned that link and can see lots of complex stuff about muscles and energy but nothing at all about testing people with different types of pedals.

can you point out the bit I am clearly not seeing ?

Page 2626 2nd paragraph down right hand side.

Quote:Responses while cycling with and without toe clips and shoe cleats.
The blood lactate, heart rate, perceived exertion, and ventilatory responses to three cycling intensities ranging from 60 to 90% of Vo2max were not different when pedaling with toe clips and shoe cleats as opposed to when cycling with standard rubber pedal while wearing general athletic shoes. Vo2max was also not different under the 2 conditions. All 14 subjects were tested.End Quote

It is also discussed on page 2628, right hand side, where Coggan expresses surprise at the findings regarding pedal type.

Coggan being an extremely good and honest scientist who is entirely independent included his findings despite them not being what everyone might expect or it being the main part of his study.

There are of course many advantages in clipless pedals such as convenience and safety and comfort. I very much doubt Coggan would advocate using flat pedals for the track, road racing or even time trials.

simon_masterson

NITR8s wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

than one hammer can knock in a nail better than another. '

Wrong! a hammer with better weight distrubition would work better than a pourly designed hammer, dont you know anything about physics.

No, I don't know anything about physics.

But that's moreorless what I'm getting at. The point is that neither can increase the amount of force that the user puts into it.

Trev The Rev

DesB3rd wrote:

I know, I just find it ironic that the research by Dr Andrew Coggan shows clipless pedals are not 'faster'.

Coggan's work is now 25 years old (the year before my family got an Amstrad PCDD, which gives some idea as to the state of electronic monitoring gear); don't quote me but I have a feeling that more recent work conflicts his conclusions, noting very minor efficiency advantages albeit not the sort of thing that would advantage a weekend rider... Other factors.

Coggans tests were made using extremely accurate measuring equipment, I think it was mechanical, which would have been calibrated properly to ensure accuracy. I may not agree with everything Dr Coggan says or with some of his training methods, but I would never question the accuracy of his measurements. As far as I am aware there is not other research on this subject by him. Certainly when I quoted it in the past he commented about it but certainly did not say he has done subsequent research which reached different conclusions.

He does post on timetrialling forum and usually patiently answers questions. I am no longer on timetrialling forum (suspended, left, and now not allowed back on), but I would be interested to hear his comments and see any research by him or others on this subject.

MrSweary

Well whatever the good Dr's research says I think we can all agree that if you are certain your foot isn't going to slip or be bumped off the pedal you are more likely to push harder in any given circumstance. Knowing that your foot is always in the optimal position on the pedal must help too.

As others have pointed out unless the tests were undertaken in 'real world' conditions then the finding is pretty meaningless.

Trev The Rev

MrSweary wrote:

Well whatever the good Dr's research says I think we can all agree that if you are certain your foot isn't going to slip or be bumped off the pedal you are more likely to push harder in any given circumstance. Knowing that your foot is always in the optimal position on the pedal must help too.

As others have pointed out unless the tests were undertaken in 'real world' conditions then the finding is pretty meaningless.

You mean like all the scientific tests quoted by the manufacturers of sports drinks?

I'm sure Dr Coggan would agree with you but being an honest scientist he published his findings. There is obviously a difference between a stationary rig in a lab to real world on the road cycling.

Dr Coggan is in fact one of the worlds leading experts in real world testing as far as cycling is concerned.

iPete

Do I need to ask why the timetrialling banned you?

I think its pretty unanimous that pedals don't make you faster but MrSweary has a point. I doubt the science measured rider confidence.

Trev The Rev

iPete wrote:

Do I need to ask why the timetrialling banned you?

I think its pretty unanimous that pedals don't make you faster but MrSweary has a point. I doubt the science measured rider confidence.

Probably not.

ddraver

Hang on - That article says NOTHING about power output. It states that there is no difference in time to fatigue using different pedals (Note that that is for a very specific test riding flat out for a short time, so in no way a comparison to a road race or ride where one would be riding anywhere between easy, at FTP or full on sprinting).

However using a particular pedal system could result in the rider putting out more/less power for the same rate of exertion. It therefore says nothing about which pedal system is the faster or more efficient.

Even before we get into the age of the study, the reliability of the measurements compared to those available today and how the study fits in with all the other available data, we can say that the study is irrelevant to the question in the OP.

Trev, you have been skepticed! Try harder...

Trev The Rev

ddraver wrote:

Hang on - That article says NOTHING about power output. It states that there is no difference in time to fatigue using different pedals (Note that that is for a very specific test riding flat out for a short time, so in no way a comparison to a road race or ride where one would be riding anywhere between easy, at FTP or full on sprinting).

However using a particular pedal system could result in the rider putting out more/less power for the same rate of exertion. It therefore says nothing about which pedal system is the faster or more efficient.

Even before we get into the age of the study, the reliability of the measurements compared to those available today and how the study fits in with all the other available data, we can say that the study is irrelevant to the question in the OP.

Trev, you have been skepticed! Try harder...

A constant power output was maintained independent of pedal frequency but a cadence of 75 to 85 was maintained.

ddraver

Yes but there is no measurement of WHAT that power was....

Still a fail...

Trev The Rev

ddraver wrote:

Yes but there is no measurement of WHAT that power was....

Still a fail...

I think you should take that up with Dr Andrew Coggan who knows rather more about measuring a cyclist's power than almost anyone on the planet.

The power would have been different for all 14 subjects seeing as they were working at percentages of their Vo2max or threshold.

ddraver

Do you have his e-mail?

That is precisely the point - the question the OP is asked was (put as a proper scientific hypothesis) Do clipless pedals result in an increase in power at the same level of intensity?

You need to have a read of this buddy - http://books.google.nl/books/about/How_ ... edir_esc=y

Dr Coggon could be the absolute best scientist in the world, but if he's not asking the question you want answered, he's useless. You re just quoting random stuff because you think it makes it look like you know what you re talking about, when actually, casting even the most cursory of scientific glances over the paper shows you re talking rubbish. I would suggest that Dr Coggon would be very unhappy to hear about you grossly misusing his data in this way.

t.m.h.n.e.t

ddraver wrote:

Do you have his e-mail?

That is precisely the point - the question the OP is asked was (put as a proper scientific hypothesis) Do clipless pedals result in an increase in power at the same level of intensity?

You need to have a read of this buddy - http://books.google.nl/books/about/How_ ... edir_esc=y

Dr Coggon could be the absolute best scientist in the world, but if he's not asking the question you want answered, he's useless. You re just quoting random stuff because you think it makes it look like you know what you re talking about, when actually, casting even the most cursory of scientific glances over the paper shows you re talking rubbish. I would suggest that Dr Coggon would be very unhappy to hear about you grossly misusing his data in this way.

"Tips hat"

alfablue

A constant power output was maintained independent of pedal frequency but a cadence of 75 to 85 was maintained.

This is not the same as saying power output was independent of pedal type, it just refers to cadence (pedal frequency).

geebee2

Trev The Rev wrote:

Are clipless pedals faster? If so why?

Than what?

For what?

Trev The Rev

ddraver wrote:

Do you have his e-mail?

That is precisely the point - the question the OP is asked was (put as a proper scientific hypothesis) Do clipless pedals result in an increase in power at the same level of intensity?

You need to have a read of this buddy - http://books.google.nl/books/about/How_ ... edir_esc=y

Dr Coggon could be the absolute best scientist in the world, but if he's not asking the question you want answered, he's useless. You re just quoting random stuff because you think it makes it look like you know what you re talking about, when actually, casting even the most cursory of scientific glances over the paper shows you re talking rubbish. I would suggest that Dr Coggon would be very unhappy to hear about you grossly misusing his data in this way.

You need to read the paper again.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Trev The Rev wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Do you have his e-mail?

That is precisely the point - the question the OP is asked was (put as a proper scientific hypothesis) Do clipless pedals result in an increase in power at the same level of intensity?

You need to have a read of this buddy - http://books.google.nl/books/about/How_ ... edir_esc=y

Dr Coggon could be the absolute best scientist in the world, but if he's not asking the question you want answered, he's useless. You re just quoting random stuff because you think it makes it look like you know what you re talking about, when actually, casting even the most cursory of scientific glances over the paper shows you re talking rubbish. I would suggest that Dr Coggon would be very unhappy to hear about you grossly misusing his data in this way.

You need to read the paper again.

"The blood lactate,heart rate,perceived exertion and ventilatory responses to three cycling intensities ranging between 60% and 90% VO2Max were not different when pedaling with toe clips or shoe cleats"

So Dr Coggan managed to discover that the physical responses to pedaling didn't change when the pedal type did. Yet he did not conclude that there was no difference in speed,as comparing the mechanics of two pedal types was not the intention of the study.

And you're telling other people to re-read the study? :roll:

Trev The Rev

About a year ago asked Andrew Coggan this,

Seriously - has anyone ever done or even seen any research that proves it is faster to have the feet clipped, bolted or strapped to the pedals, other than from a standing start or up very steep hills where there is an advantage from being able to pull up?


Andrew Coggan's reply to my question was,

QUOTE (Andrew Coggan @ Dec 13 2011, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.

BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.

That said, I'm not about to give up my cleated shoes and pedals, if only for the security factor.

And on 15th December 2011
Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:34 PM
QUOTE (Dehydrated Horse @ Dec 15 2011, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Andrew,

Any more info on those tests? Were the tests comparing no clips & straps to nothing, or clips & straps to cllipless pedals?

Thanks

Dehydrated Horse

Andrew's reply,

Quote : Sorry, missed this before...

Clipless pedals were just gaining popularity when we did our study, so we compared clips/straps vs. no means of attachment. The results are described briefly at the top of page 2626 (in the 2nd column) in this paper:

http://wustl.academia.edu/AndrewRCoggan ... _2622-2630 END Quote.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Trev The Rev wrote:

About a year ago asked Andrew Coggan this,

Seriously - has anyone ever done or even seen any research that proves it is faster to have the feet clipped, bolted or strapped to the pedals, other than from a standing start or up very steep hills where there is an advantage from being able to pull up?


Andrew Coggan's reply to my question was,

QUOTE (Andrew Coggan @ Dec 13 2011, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Many years ago, we measured VO2max, LT, and efficiency in cyclists pedaling w/ and w/o toe clips, and found no difference. Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.

BMX riders produce enormous power at very high pedaling rates w/o having their feet attached to the pedals.

That said, I'm not about to give up my cleated shoes and pedals, if only for the security factor.

You need help.

ddraver

Again - nothing about variation in power output. The Study says that the riders VO2 max and LT do not change when the pedal system does. Well of course not, how would the type of pedal system use result in an internal, physiological change.

Also, BMXers DO use SPD's now

Your still a fail - I bet you go to chiropractors and Homeopathists too don't you. They do the same things as you, post a link to a paper, say that proves them right, then run away hoping to heaven that no one actually reads it!

Trev The Rev

To quote Dr Coggan

Quote, Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.End quote.

There was no difference in Vo2max, lactate threshold or efficiency.

cougie

So Coggan rides clipless. It's not all about speed. Its a lot safer knowing that your foot wont slip off the pedal.

t.m.h.n.e.t

Trev The Rev wrote:

To quote Dr Coggan

Quote, Other studies have also failed to show any benefits.End quote.

There was no difference in Vo2max, lactate threshold or efficiency.

Ok so list some other relevant studies on the subject.

Trev The Rev wrote:

Are clipless pedals faster? If so why?

Which this

There was no difference in Vo2max, lactate threshold or efficiency.

Is not.