Short Travel 26ers becoming Obsolete?

bennett_346

njee20 wrote:

Why on earth are 26" wheels more suitable for 'more complicated' singletrack?! What even is that FFS?!

Because... they're smaller? If the size had no effect on manuverability we'd all be riding 36ers.

Same reason why you can't use 26 inch wheels as well as 20 inch wheels in a skate park, the ramps are smaller and fit 20 inch wheels better.

29ers peforming worse in tight bermed singletrack is a well documented fact.

ddraver

Everyone seems to get so hung up on the tight bermed singletrack, but I ve ridden in most places (by no means all) in the UK and I can think of 1, ONE, place where that would be a problem (FTD at Cannock). Most Trail centers don't have much, and almost no natural riding has anything twisty and turny...

If you live in Birmingham then maybe a 29er will not be perfect, but everywhere else...?

bennett_346

ddraver wrote:

Everyone seems to get so hung up on the tight bermed singletrack, but I ve ridden in most places (by no means all) in the UK and I can think of 1, ONE, place where that would be a problem (FTD at Cannock). Most Trail centers don't have much, and almost no natural riding has anything twisty and turny...

Bollocks. Not been to many riding spots have you.

My three nearest trail centres are very tight and twisty, as is the local riding i do. As well as the stuff i've built.

Also 29ers aren't as fun to jump in some peoples opinion.

They have their place, sure. Just not everyone should have one.

ddraver

the 3 are?

bennett_346

Chopwell, hamsterley, kielder.

supersonic

Can people please stick to the topic and stop attacking each other? And stop using the word 'bollocks'! Warnings will be given if it carries on.

Great Ayton

njee20 wrote:

Very few riders are told what to ride. Spesh riders have to ride 29ers, as that's all they make, but still always have the choice of hardtail or FS. Scott have the choice of hardtail or FS, 26", 650b of 29er. This stuff about 'riders being told what to ride' is crap. A manufacturer wants their rider to win, if their riders don't like the bike, or its not suitable that won't reflect well on the manufacturer

You are correct that they wish too win but your very wrong about riders being told what to use. High end sponsored are paid to ride given products. This is where there income comes from. The winnings from the race it self and any government pales in to insignificance when compared to sponsorship. Yes something being used to win in pro events can show that its good but that is not to say its the best. 29ers are being pushed at the moment as many of the bigger brands have picked up on the marketing value of such bikes. Just think about it. If what you are saying was true. If it was true every pro rider would be riding exactly the same bike! This simply does not happen.

njee20 wrote:

The weight is a non issue too frankly, yes wheels and tyres are heavier than an equivalent 26" one, but there are brands innovating in 29ers as opposed to 26. Likewise the proliferation of lightweight frames - Trek Superfly SL etc. The weight penalties are very slight now, there are 18lb 29ers in the World Cup field.

Have a look at what I said again. You trade weight for stiffness. You can get ultra lights bikes out there but more often then not a much stiffer yet slightly heaver bike will out perform the ultra light. This is as true on a 26er as a 29er. This is why things like through axles, larger steerer tubes, thicker BB and such like are becoming more common. So yes a 29er bike is inherently a bit heaver with most of this being in rotating mass. But this big headache with 29ers is how they inherently have a lot more flexy. So the 29er is more at home with less aggressive riding where flex is not so much of an issue.

njee20 wrote:

Why on earth are 26" wheels more suitable for 'more complicated' singletrack?! What even is that FFS?!

Because the size makes the bike less nimble and they tend to flex more that is not so great if your being more aggressive. Like the chap pointed out above if bigger was just simple better we would be having 36ers by now.

bennett_346

If moderators can use the word why can't I?

supersonic

I used it as an example. It has now been added to the censor list (before you made your post). Don't try and circumvent the censor.

bennett_346

supersonic wrote:

I used it as an example. It has now been added to the censor list (before you made your post). Don't try and circumvent the censor.

nicklouse has used that word hundreds of times and i can find you all the posts.

supersonic

Look, stay on topic! I am not discussing this here. Rules can change you know! Now carry on with the thread.

ddraver

bennett_346 wrote:

Chopwell, hamsterley, kielder.

I admit I ve never been to any of them...

supersonic

It's stuff like this at Wharncliffe where many like a quick handling bike:



Very twisty and turny!

stubs

I ride a fair bit at Healey Nab and that is definitely a 26er place on some of the corners an average 29er would put you in the trees if you carried any speed.

ddraver

OK but (off the top of my head), I ve ridden (South to North), Bodmin moor, Dartmoor, S Wales, mid Wales, Cannock (notable exception), N Wales, Lakes, Yorkshire Dales, S Scotland and the 7 Staines, I ve never seen anything that would make me think I'm glad I'm on a 26er here.

Nor the Pyrenees, nor spain (Ok the switch backs would be worse, but the other 99% would be fine)

But this is the issue, For some people will they will be beneficial depending on where they ride, their riding style and their physiology. For some people they will not be for the same reasons!

njee20

You are correct that they wish too win but your very wrong about riders being told what to use. High end sponsored are paid to ride given products. This is where there income comes from. The winnings from the race it self and any government pales in to insignificance when compared to sponsorship. Yes something being used to win in pro events can show that its good but that is not to say its the best. 29ers are being pushed at the moment as many of the bigger brands have picked up on the marketing value of such bikes. Just think about it. If what you are saying was true. If it was true every pro rider would be riding exactly the same bike! This simply does not happen.

29ers are not universally being used on the WC circuit, there's a full range of bikes. Yes 29ers are on the rise, but the World Champs was won on a 650b hardtail, the women's Olympic race on a 26" hardtail. The idea that riders are told exactly what to ride is antiquated and frankly wrong - I can tell you that from pro riders.

The weight point really is a red herring. Plenty of XC racers are still incredibly anal about lightweight kit, and yet some (not all) are moving to 29ers. If saving weight comes at the expense of speed it's entirely pointless, but the point is that most riders are content that the increase in like-for-like weight is offset by the increased speed.

Now this... and I'll quote it again:

Just think about it. If what you are saying was true. If it was true every pro rider would be riding exactly the same bike! This simply does not happen.

Seriously? Think about that. Consumers have totally free reign, 100%. And yet we're not all riding the same bike. That's just an absurd thing to say!

The stiffness/flex comments are not really comparing like for like. Taking that photo at Wharncliffe, how many people would choose a 100mm travel XC race bike to tackle that? Few. Would a 29er of the same ilk be any less appropriate? Not really. Neither would be the appropriate tool. That's where 650b longer travel bikes are coming to the fore.

Likewise comments about 29ers 'putting you in the trees on corners if you carry any speed' is just total bollocks! We're hardly talking about something with the turning circle of a super tanker here! Very tight twisty low speed stuff certainly won't be an area where they excel, but IMO if you're carrying any sort of speed a 29er will be just fine!

Again answering the question from the OP: will short travel, XC race bikes with 26" wheels become obsolete? Yes, I think so, we're well on the way.

Will bikes with 26" wheels becomes obsolete, of course not. Even shorter travel bikes like the Orange Blood/ST4 and so on won't, but for more racey bikes... yes I think so.

supersonic

Taking that photo at Wharncliffe, how many people would choose a 100mm travel XC race bike to tackle that?

Lots. Even though the guys there are riding LT bikes. Go and ride there, see for yourself.

29ers are not universally being used on the WC circuit, there's a full range of bikes.

Yes, but as you keep saying, some manufacturers are going exclusively 29er. So no choice for their riders. The point to some is that people believe that the 29er only range, along with the team, is mainly for marketing. If a big team shoved a massive cheque in my face, I wouldn't complain at the range.

Northwind

supersonic wrote:

It's stuff like this at Wharncliffe where many like a quick handling bike:

They seem to be riding downhill bikes, generally less agile than a 29er XC bike because of the long wheelbase and slack head angle. Can't ride mine through really twisty woods, it doesn't have the lock!

(is that Peaty in the background? I guess a V10 to him is a bit like a BMX to everyone else, now there's a candidate for 29er wheels if I ever saw one)

paul.skibum

ddraver wrote:

OK but (off the top of my head), I ve ridden (South to North), Bodmin moor, Dartmoor, S Wales, mid Wales, Cannock (notable exception), N Wales, Lakes, Yorkshire Dales, S Scotland and the 7 Staines, I ve never seen anything that would make me think I'm glad I'm on a 26er here.

Nor the Pyrenees, nor spain (Ok the switch backs would be worse, but the other 99% would be fine)

But this is the issue, For some people will they will be beneficial depending on where they ride, their riding style and their physiology. For some people they will not be for the same reasons!

I definitely agree that "natural" riding in the UK as in bridleways and other permissive paths do not tend to be that twisty, they may have tight corners here and there but generally due to the nature of their development they are paths to places not designed to take forever to get somewhere where as trail centres and man made bike tracks do tend to want to make the most of descents by twisting about.

That said I have read few enough trail centres that I think would present a huge challenge to a 29er in terms of getting round the corners, couple of bits at Afan might be tricky, perhaps a short section at some of the others.

The trails I have ridden here in BC have been built over a good number of years but with few of them having been built in the last couple of years there are a few sections that do not suit 29ers, a number of trails my mate struggles to get through on his stumpy. I am just hoping that future trail development doesnt get influenced too heavily in favour of one type of bike, hopefully there is a middle ground for us all to have fun on!

benpinnick

supersonic wrote:

Taking that photo at Wharncliffe, how many people would choose a 100mm travel XC race bike to tackle that?

Lots. Even though the guys there are riding LT bikes. Go and ride there, see for yourself.

I was one of the guys that built the 'original' Wharncliffe trails many years ago, I rode a Diamond Back WCF Vertex at the time, 60mm travel, carbon/steel frame. Super-XC orientated. Not to say that would be my weapon of choice nowadays, but did the job back then. No reason not to ride a 100mm XC bike at Wharncliffe if thats all you've got.

njee20

That said I have read few enough trail centres that I think would present a huge challenge to a 29er in terms of getting round the corners, couple of bits at Afan might be tricky, perhaps a short section at some of the others.

Total rubbish. There's nothing at Afan (or any other trail centre I've ridden, which is far from exclusive) that would phase a 29er, not even close!

Lots. Even though the guys there are riding LT bikes. Go and ride there, see for yourself.

Fair enough, again then, is a 29er 100mm XC race bike inherently less suitable?

pilch

njee20 wrote:

That said I have read few enough trail centres that I think would present a huge challenge to a 29er in terms of getting round the corners, couple of bits at Afan might be tricky, perhaps a short section at some of the others.

Total rubbish. There's nothing at Afan (or any other trail centre I've ridden, which is far from exclusive) that would phase a 29er, not even close!

+ many fields of potatoes

benpinnick

pilch wrote:

njee20 wrote:

That said I have read few enough trail centres that I think would present a huge challenge to a 29er in terms of getting round the corners, couple of bits at Afan might be tricky, perhaps a short section at some of the others.

Total rubbish. There's nothing at Afan (or any other trail centre I've ridden, which is far from exclusive) that would phase a 29er, not even close!

+ many fields of potatoes

+ potato factory. 29er fully rigid would be able to cope with all the afan trails no worries.

.blitz

In terms of the marketing a mate has just come back from Barcelona and bought me a Spanish MTB mag.

Not sure if the magazine is indicative of the riding scene over there but the bikes are categorised by wheel size as if it's the most important thing. Lots of big features on 29" and 650b/27.5" bikes while the 26" bikes are filed under 'niche' or 'quaint'.

The major players mentioned above don't seem to be quite as major as we might think. Lots of features on Stevens, Orbea, BMC, BH etc quite a bit different to the UK comics

njee20

The Euros have never really gone away from ultra-light carbon hardtails with 80mm SIDs and v-brakes either!

.blitz

Yes there were lots of hardcore XC bikes and very few of the trail/play bikes that are so popular in the UK.

Was easy to see how the marketing machine can change people's opinions. The UK magazines seem quite well-balanced in comparison!

ddraver

I think you raise an interesting point blitz.

We must remember when talking about Spesh, Trek, Scott that they re global bike companies and we are still a niche sport on a small island just off of Europe. We re not really their number 1 market.

The riding that the majority of UK riders do, where we re using it to get out in the hills or as a thrill is rare, and almost unique in Europe where it is about sport and people "race" everywhere as fast as possible. You could argue that UK MTBing is hill walking, whereas the rest of Europe is running. When I talk about my riding holidays with the bike club in Holland they look at me like I'm mad! Alternatively i remember taking an uplift at Lake Guarda where the local riders rode UP the epic singletrack and then just rolled down the fireroad!

I reckon there will always be UK companies (and I'm sure that there are other countries who are similar) that make "fun" 26in bikes for us, but for the global market, the majority of whom just want to cover ground as fast as possible, 29ers are the way forward

.blitz

Yup that was my impression. Only one magazine of course but a strong emphasis on xc and a definite market for 29rs. Have to say the bikes looked pretty good as well, lots of carbon and XX1 not much in the way of beginner's bikes.

Does anyone know if trail centres are unique to the UK? If so I can see that the concept of messing about off-road would seem quite unusual to our overseas cousins.

njee20

Well no, think about most Alpine resorts...

ddraver

Everything in Holland is mad made...but then Holland is man made....

Obviously some places are better than others, I think most of europe is a long way behind the UK in terms of trail centres for XC riding. From what I ve heard/read most places may have mapped or marked routes (that in places that don't see so much biking are just footpaths) or they are more "gravity" style bike parks with uplifts. They also all tend to be in the mountains or in places where they is a much more established winter sports season or summer walking/climbing season, there is nothing like Cannock or haldon Forest say, that is purpose built near a city for locals to ride on the weekend. Ironically Holland is probably the closest to the UK, and I think Belgium (particularly in the Ardennes and particularly particularly around Houffilaze) is an exception too. But again, the Benelux are all about racing!

I'm no expert though....