Drugs in other sports and the media.
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Definitely a lot more went on behind the scenes to get guys like Dick Pound etc to speak so openly about it.
I have to say, it keeps confirming what I feel about Russia. Rather bizarrely I've read and studied the Soviet terror state far more than is healthy, and it quite clearly has never really gone away.
What the Dr describes when he's arrested & made to still work for the state etc could have been written 60 years ago and it'd have sounded the same, save for using telegrams rather than a computer.0 -
But do you think it's only Russia?0
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KingstonGraham wrote:But do you think it's only Russia?
That kill top government officials when they don't perform as expected, who get the state secret police involved, who get orders directly from #1 to dope athletes as much as possible, who arrest the leading state WADA laboratory head on spurious charges until he does what they want?
Come on, there's turning a blind eye and there's using instruments of state terror in order for their athletes to perform at their top level.
Does this happen in China? Probably; I don't know enough about it, but there's doping and there's that. It's quite different.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:But do you think it's only Russia?
That kill top government officials when they don't perform as expected, who get the state secret police involved, who get orders directly from #1 to dope athletes as much as possible, who arrest the leading state WADA laboratory head on spurious charges until he does what they want?
Come on, there's turning a blind eye and there's using instruments of state terror in order for their athletes to perform at their top level.
Does this happen in China? Probably; I don't know enough about it, but there's doping and there's that. It's quite different.
Clearly there are different problems in different countries, and the Russia level of corruption needs a high level of technical know how, combined with a lot of money and the infrastructure to do it and cover it up. There aren't many countries that could combine that, I just can't help wondering if any of the few other countries who would be capable are actually doing it.
I wouldn't suggest that the problems in somewhere like Ethiopia are anything even vaguely similar.0 -
The Russian scandal isn't really about doping though; it's highlighting how deep the terror state is still entrenched, and how it still operates similarly to the way it did 40-50 years ago.
That's how I read it anyway.
Sport is trivial. If they're killing and arresting sports ministers spuriously for trivial things like sport, the situation is pretty bad.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:The Russian scandal isn't really about doping though; it's highlighting how deep the terror state is still entrenched, and how it still operates similarly to the way it did 40-50 years ago.
That's how I read it anyway.
Sport is trivial. If they're killing and arresting sports ministers spuriously for trivial things like sport, the situation is pretty bad.
Not being a student of it like you am I right in assuming, like most of the world, that it's the return of the unreconstructed hardliner Putin that has seen the problem returning?Trail fun - Transition Bandit
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lostboysaint wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The Russian scandal isn't really about doping though; it's highlighting how deep the terror state is still entrenched, and how it still operates similarly to the way it did 40-50 years ago.
That's how I read it anyway.
Sport is trivial. If they're killing and arresting sports ministers spuriously for trivial things like sport, the situation is pretty bad.
Not being a student of it like you am I right in assuming, like most of the world, that it's the return of the unreconstructed hardliner Putin that has seen the problem returning?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-zgdGQB4S4It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
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Timoid. wrote:
Oh the Kremlin's hilarious...they just didnt bother with TUEs - with RUSADA in their pocket, what was the point
All the Russian athletes being pinged now for ABPs is amusing - Russia hadnt figured out how to game the ABP completely0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:But do you think it's only Russia?
China as well
Re Kenya and its like, I think its more incompetence than anything tbh
But Russia and China - state machinery pulling all the levers - sudden deaths - families too scared to demand post mortems, all that kind of stuff...I think Russia and China head up the league tables0 -
TUE'S - really?0
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lostboysaint wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:The Russian scandal isn't really about doping though; it's highlighting how deep the terror state is still entrenched, and how it still operates similarly to the way it did 40-50 years ago.
That's how I read it anyway.
Sport is trivial. If they're killing and arresting sports ministers spuriously for trivial things like sport, the situation is pretty bad.
Not being a student of it like you am I right in assuming, like most of the world, that it's the return of the unreconstructed hardliner Putin that has seen the problem returning?
Dont think it ever stopped tbh.
Russia had a chance for a bit. Then Putin took power - and oh, look at that, Moscow apartment bombings in 1999 that enabled him to consolidate power. Putin's own Reichstag fire.
On the doping front, Putin REALLY ramped it up after Russia's poor showing at the 2010 Winter Olympics, with the next one due to be held in Sochi. Worst result since the break-up of the Soviet Union. Humiliation back home.0 -
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This couldn't be linked in any way to the disquiet around Russia's hosting of the World Cup?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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How's cortisone with stiffness?0
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TailWindHome wrote:This couldn't be linked in any way to the disquiet around Russia's hosting of the World Cup?
John Terry?0 -
Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
To be fair, they managed a fair bit of damage with the Wiggins TUE with Parliamentary Inquiries, a media sh!t storm and inflicting a new troll on this forum. Their problem going after football is bothered about it as even if it's not legitimate 'doping doesn't help in a skill game'.
That said, the FA appear to have upset Dan Roan as he actually did a report on the England women's 'racist' comments row yesterday albeit I can't recall him mentioning it at the time but who knows, maybe he'll turn his high quality investigative journalism skills onto the previously unheard off use of cortisone injections in football now.0 -
I haven't read any leaks re. what Tevez, Kuyt or Heinze were taking, but without wanting to start the whole debate up again Wiggins case was slightly different in he didn't take anything because he was suffering an ailment. It was taken as a precaution, on the eve of his targets, with the side effects that would benefit all/most GC contenders.
My point re. TUE's - really???? was: why not highlight the cocaine/ecstacy users instead of TUE's....or is it because they play for League 1/2 teams and not in the world cup?0 -
Dinyull wrote:
My point re. TUE's - really???? was: why not highlight the cocaine/ecstacy users instead of TUE's....or is it because they play for League 1/2 teams and not in the world cup?
Were they in-competition failures? If not, cocaine is not considered performance enhancing.0 -
With the TUEs the media get to use the word 'steroids' and therefore give the illusion of cheating. Presenting a coke and E as a performance enhancer is a hard sell.Dinyull wrote:My point re. TUE's - really???? was: why not highlight the cocaine/ecstacy users instead of TUE's....or is it because they play for League 1/2 teams and not in the world cup?
Also the media seem to be more sympathetic regarding coke. It's hard for the BBC or the Guardian to get on their high horse when they know are more users in their own offices than in the fancy bears leak.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
With the TUEs the media get to use the word 'steroids' and therefore give the illusion of cheating. Presenting a coke and E as a performance enhancer is a hard sell.Dinyull wrote:My point re. TUE's - really???? was: why not highlight the cocaine/ecstacy users instead of TUE's....or is it because they play for League 1/2 teams and not in the world cup?
Also the media seem to be more sympathetic regarding coke. It's hard for the BBC or the Guardian to get on their high horse when they know are more users in their own offices than in the fancy bears leak.
Rich just dropped a truth bomb dere0 -
I do think whoever managed to convince the world that having a medically certified exemption, endorsed by the sports regulators, to take an otherwise banned substance was the height of doping should take a highly paid job in advertising as their powers of persuasion are significant. TUEs have been bleated on about both by "whistleblowing" athletes and journalists, and yet (possibly barring the Wiggins case, and IMHO not even then) have been shown through the fancybears stuff to be relatively rare, well documented and generally perfectly acceptable!!
Once upon a time a sportsman would be being interviewed before a big performance / match and asked about their recovery from a recent injury in live TV interviews and they'd say "It's still not quite right, but I'll go back to the medics later for a steroid injection and hopefully I'll be OK come match / race day" and we'd all nod sagely and understand that sports medicine doctors were treating athletes appropriately and be fine about it. Now apparently we're supposed to stare incredulously at them and shout "CHEAT" in their faces if they do this. Despite the fact they are following medical advice AND the rules!!!
If you were being really cynical, you could argue that all of the hot air about TUEs is actually a very clever distraction technique aimed at focussing investigations away from the real issues as badly informed journalists keep asking about TUEs instead of following up on other, perhaps more long term stories. A few years ago I went to my birth-town's League 2 football ground to watch a match. At the turnstiles my brother and I were asked "Any bottles, cans?" to which we both replied "no". On passing through the turnstiles we both turned to each other simultaneously and said "But I have got my penknife in my pocket".
You've got to ask the right questions if you want to get to the bottom of doping issues in sport today.
On the points above about Russia - I am minded to agree that only a state like Russia really has the control and resources to put its manipulation of the doping controls into practice. Arguments that "look at Russia, surely Kenya, Ethiopia, Jamaica are at it too" completely misses the points that those other countries would be utter amateurs compared to Russia in trying to be as deceptive. USA could manage it to an extent, but even with the resources at its disposal the freedom of speech there is such that it wouldn't be kept quiet for long. If there is an issue with doping in Kenya and Ethiopia, its more to do with poorly funded testing arrangements (which might be being taken advantage of) than a systematic intent to deceive the world.2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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Couldn't give a flying f*&k about TUEs. Tell us about the 150 failed tests...........Trail fun - Transition Bandit
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lostboysaint wrote:Couldn't give a flying f*&k about TUEs. Tell us about the 150 failed tests...........
WordIt's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
In MMA, Jon Jones failed a 2nd drugs test on his return from his 1st ban...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... 14-cormier0 -
From what I've seen of MMA I surprised anyone would consider doing it clean.Dinyull wrote:In MMA, Jon Jones failed a 2nd drugs test on his return from his 1st ban...
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... 14-cormier
(Off topic but I really hope at the weekend Mayweather comes out and batters MacGregor within a minute and then just stands there shouting "Are you not entertained?" like Russell Crowe in Gladiator. An utter nonsense event)Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:(Off topic but I really hope at the weekend Mayweather comes out and batters MacGregor within a minute and then just stands there shouting "Are you not entertained?" like Russell Crowe in Gladiator. An utter nonsense event)
It should be like Wigan v Bath in 96.0
