Team Sky- position on doping
Comments
-
ddraver wrote:Seen this crap yet?
http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/ground ... t=40364938
I'm trying to resist them, I'm trying!
Sky (via @FranMillar)'s response! http://pics.lockerz.com/s/254603043
Oh Snap!!
Sorry - just because I was right! Mwah ha! :oops:We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Jez mon wrote:rebs wrote:Think Sky are more long term in there objectives. Garmins approach will only work so long. Eventually a line needs to be drawn.
Meh, IMO, David Millar and Vaughters should be allowed to stay in cycling for as long as they want.
Sky's approach is staggeringly naive at best, at worst it's plain insulting to the fans. Garmin have done far more, IMO, to try and convince fans.
Sky won le Tour with a clean rider - I think that out trumps anything Vaughters of Miller has achieved or done to 'convince' fans that cycling is cleaning itself up.0 -
mroli wrote:Just one interesting take on this - I went to the Rapha Condor Sharp thing on Weds last and Kristian House was there. Not only did he say he had never doped, but he also said that he had never been offered doping products. He's a great domestic rider - he mixed it with the pro-riders to win the English Nationals a couple of years back and I found that interesting and reassuring.
So long as he said he doesn't dope then everything's alright.
I'm so tired of asking professional sportsmen if they dope and being told the ins and outs of a highly successful doping regime. Good to hear at least one is clean.0 -
plectrum wrote:Jez mon wrote:rebs wrote:Think Sky are more long term in there objectives. Garmins approach will only work so long. Eventually a line needs to be drawn.
Meh, IMO, David Millar and Vaughters should be allowed to stay in cycling for as long as they want.
Sky's approach is staggeringly naive at best, at worst it's plain insulting to the fans. Garmin have done far more, IMO, to try and convince fans.
Sky won le Tour with a clean rider - I think that out trumps anything Vaughters of Miller has achieved or done to 'convince' fans that cycling is cleaning itself up.
I really wish that were the case, but it isn't.
Rather, it's the majority perception within the UK.
Outside of the UK, within cycling fan bases, there remains a fair amount of scepticism.
On the whole, Vaughters is seen in the most positive light.
Thinking upon this, Rich: I hope no member the Clinic Sky haters club see your post above, else they will use it as yet more proof!"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
plectrum wrote:Jez mon wrote:rebs wrote:Think Sky are more long term in there objectives. Garmins approach will only work so long. Eventually a line needs to be drawn.
Meh, IMO, David Millar and Vaughters should be allowed to stay in cycling for as long as they want.
Sky's approach is staggeringly naive at best, at worst it's plain insulting to the fans. Garmin have done far more, IMO, to try and convince fans.
Sky won le Tour with a clean rider - I think that out trumps anything Vaughters of Miller has achieved or done to 'convince' fans that cycling is cleaning itself up.
They did win the Giro though (and with a lot lower budget). Anti-doping is not a competition. If they're both running clean teams then ultimately that's all that really matters.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:
Thinking upon this, Rich: I hope no member the Clinic Sky haters club see your post above, else they will use it as yet more proof!
My made up scenarios are of a higher standard than most of their evidence.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:plectrum wrote:Jez mon wrote:rebs wrote:Think Sky are more long term in there objectives. Garmins approach will only work so long. Eventually a line needs to be drawn.
Meh, IMO, David Millar and Vaughters should be allowed to stay in cycling for as long as they want.
Sky's approach is staggeringly naive at best, at worst it's plain insulting to the fans. Garmin have done far more, IMO, to try and convince fans.
Sky won le Tour with a clean rider - I think that out trumps anything Vaughters of Miller has achieved or done to 'convince' fans that cycling is cleaning itself up.
They did win the Giro though (and with a lot lower budget). Anti-doping is not a competition. If they're both running clean teams then ultimately that's all that really matters.
Rich,
Running clean teams is great but Vaughters is a prime dick. Whether you like DB or not, he doesn't go around publicly criticising other clean teams. There is a edge at Garmin where it is fine to go on twitter and slag off others be that how Miller did to Wiggo or Vaughters does to Sky.
If the Sky plan works out and they win quite a few more GTs over the next 5-10 yrs then they will be the beacon that helps cycling back on track. It is certainly great that Garmin are on that track also but not if they are going to be so publicly opinionated about what is the correct way to run your team.
DB, Team Sky & British Cycling are currently numero uno in both track and road men cycling and so they must be doing something right. I'd prefer it is Vaughters spent more time giving praise where praise is due.0 -
plectrum wrote:Running clean teams is great but Vaughters is a prime dick. Whether you like DB or not, he doesn't go around publicly criticising other clean teams. There is a edge at Garmin where it is fine to go on twitter and slag off others be that how Miller did to Wiggo or Vaughters does to Sky.
Agreed, lost all respect for Vaughters in the last week or so as he is coming over as a sanctimonious prick. Has he apologized for his own rampant doping yet?0 -
As for Ryder Hesjedal - 2004 US Postal 2005 Discovery Channel 2006 Phonak - not the cleanest teams in the peleton... when did he stop doping? Not sure where the justification of the scepticism of sky comes from as they probably have the cleanest team both present and historical in pro cycling. Sure there are a few skeletons i.e. Rogers, Leinders, Yates but in comparison to the past of Garmin well jeez!0
-
I also find it interesting that Ryder Hesjedal has been completely quiet throughout all this considering he rode with Amrstrong and Landis for 2/3 yrs but then considering he is the Giro champion and the GT rider for next year's TdF for Garmin, Vaughters obviously has different rules for riders at the end of their career or just rubbish and those who actually have a chance to win something.0
-
I don't think Vaughters' comments on Sky come anywhere near close to "slagging off". He's allowed to comment on what he thinks is the best way forward, and he did it very respectfully as far as the comments I read go.0
-
r0bh wrote:plectrum wrote:Running clean teams is great but Vaughters is a prime dick. Whether you like DB or not, he doesn't go around publicly criticising other clean teams. There is a edge at Garmin where it is fine to go on twitter and slag off others be that how Miller did to Wiggo or Vaughters does to Sky.
Agreed, lost all respect for Vaughters in the last week or so as he is coming over as a sanctimonious prick. Has he apologized for his own rampant doping yet?
To be fair, yes he has- Many Many times!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Turfle wrote:I don't think Vaughters' comments on Sky come anywhere near close to "slagging off". He's allowed to comment on what he thinks is the best way forward, and he did it very respectfully as far as the comments I read go.
Turfle,
I think the animosity towards Sky and Wiggins by Vaughters and Miller was obvious certainly for a while post Wiggins departure. Interms of recently there has been a few call outs aimed towards Brailsford.
Anyhow I guess the view is that Vaughters is speaking in a UK national press title semi preaching towards Brailsford and Team Sky about how to create a good clean doping environment. This is to a Team that has probably the lowest number of members with a past history and currently rated by most as the number 1 pro team.
It perhaps would have gone down better if he had just said; it is great another team is taking such a public stance against doping and lime us with Ryder showing the world that it is possible to win GTs clean. I do not fully agree with all Sky's methods and prefer to give forgiveness and acceptance rather than ban but ultimately if there were more teams like us and Sky the sport would be fixed far sooner.
If he came across like that then I would be a fan.0 -
plectrum wrote:As for Ryder Hesjedal - 2004 US Postal 2005 Discovery Channel 2006 Phonak - not the cleanest teams in the peloton... when did he stop doping? Not sure where the justification of the scepticism of sky comes from as they probably have the cleanest team both present and historical in pro cycling. Sure there are a few skeletons i.e. Rogers, Leinders, Yates but in comparison to the past of Garmin well jeez!
Lets compare, including past and present riders or staff who are tangled up in this mess
Garmin - Vaughters, DZ, CVV, White, Danielson, Dekker
Sky - Rogers, Barry, Yates, Leinders, Possoni + 4 or 5 others according to best guesses. (I'll leave folks like Nygaard out of it)
Now, I'm not really that good at maths, but....
Do I think Sky are dirty? Nope. But what they're doing now gives riders no choice but to double down and continue lying.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:plectrum wrote:As for Ryder Hesjedal - 2004 US Postal 2005 Discovery Channel 2006 Phonak - not the cleanest teams in the peloton... when did he stop doping? Not sure where the justification of the scepticism of sky comes from as they probably have the cleanest team both present and historical in pro cycling. Sure there are a few skeletons i.e. Rogers, Leinders, Yates but in comparison to the past of Garmin well jeez!
Lets compare, including past and present riders or staff who are tangled up in this mess
Garmin - Vaughters, DZ, CVV, White, Danielson, Dekker
Sky - Rogers, Barry, Yates, Leinders, Possoni + 4 or 5 others according to best guesses. (I'll leave folks like Nygaard out of it)
Now, I'm not really that good at maths, but....
Do I think Sky are dirty? Nope. But what they're doing now gives riders no choice but to double down and continue lying.
Garmin -
Guilty & current team
1. Vaughters,
2. DZ,
3. CVV,
4. Danielson,
5. Dekker
6. Miller
Sky -
Guilty & current team
0. (Barry has been sacked/retired)
Yates's 89 was known about and as a driver tactician on Postal he wouldn't have had any influence or otherwise on doping.
Anyhow - I think both teams are doing something positive, I think Sky is a far better team and I think long term they will be more influential as a force of change. People latch on to victories more than anything else.
As for Rogers well , I have as many questions for Ryder. To rider 2 years for a Bruyneel team without doping is strange and then if you were anti doping and talented, why move to Phonak?0 -
I was referring to people who have history and would fall foul of Sky's stance.
If you keep forcing staff to hide their past, it will keep coming back to bite you. And eventually the sponsor will get annoyed and just leave.
Rogers was a Ferrari client, and was as good as mentioned in the Freiburg stuff. There's never been mention of anything thus far in Ryders career. There could well be some stuff, but there is a significant body of smoke around Rogers.
As for Yates, yeah, he "drove the car" when Savoldelli (well known client of Dr F) won the Giro. I'm sure he didn't notice anything. But lets forget him - If DB really believes his positon, why is someone who was in the 98 TVM team at the Tour employed? Was Wikipedia down on the day of pre-employment screening checks?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Iain,
It is an opinion, just not one I personally agree with, I fully support Sky's stance. It may mean a few riders or team members fall foul but slowly but surely they will create a fully clean team which is their aim. I also fully support Garmin's stance.
You could easily counter that Garmin's stance suggests riders can dope with impunity knowing that if when caught they admit their guilt, Vaughters will give them a job,
Anyhow it is a glass half full or half empty - Both Garmin & Sky are very much for the positive future of the sport and the focus should be on many of the other crap teams like Vonokourov's Astana or Valverde's Movistar rather than bickering between the two best about who is whiter!0 -
anyhow - have a good weekend, time to prise my fingers from the keyboard and go out into the light!0
-
iainf72 wrote:But lets forget him - If DB really believes his positon, why is someone who was in the 98 TVM team at the Tour employed?
As Oscar Wilde almost wrote in The Importance of Being Earnest: "To hire one member of the 98 TVM team may be regarded as misfortune, to hire two looks like carelessness".Twitter: @RichN950 -
The French teams deserve some credit. They were (mostly) doing the no doping stuff before Garmin existed.ddraver wrote:I think that the best 2 teams in terms of anti-doping are Sky and Garmin, the others are so so far behind that it's almost irrelevant which of the top 2 is better...Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
The French teams deserve some credit. They were (mostly) doing the no doping stuff before Garmin existed.ddraver wrote:I think that the best 2 teams in terms of anti-doping are Sky and Garmin, the others are so so far behind that it's almost irrelevant which of the top 2 is better...
That's a very fair point Rich, and one that I think many people (clearly myself included) forget about.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Apologies if this has been covered...
I think there are three scenarios for these interviews.
1. A rider says he is clean and there is nothing to suggest that he is lying - Thank you very much, keep riding
2. A rider confesses to previous doping or there is evidence that suggests they are dirty. - You're off the team, but seeing as there has been a confession, they are paid off, maybe full contract or some sort of compromise agreement.
3. Subsequently, a rider is discovered to have lied. Gross Misconduct, instant dismissal and possibly some way to recover previous paid salary.
I would modify contracts appropriately. This also covers the "What is the incentive in telling the truth?" issue.Top Ten finisher - PTP Tour of Britain 20160 -
iainf72 wrote:Garmin - Vaughters, DZ, CVV, White, Danielson, Dekker
Sky - Rogers, Barry, Yates, Leinders, Possoni + 4 or 5 others according to best guesses. (I'll leave folks like Nygaard out of it)
You forgot Millar! He'll be very disappointed. And come on, if you're going to join the dots for Sky you need to do it for Garmin too.0 -
ddraver wrote:RichN95 wrote:
The French teams deserve some credit. They were (mostly) doing the no doping stuff before Garmin existed.ddraver wrote:I think that the best 2 teams in terms of anti-doping are Sky and Garmin, the others are so so far behind that it's almost irrelevant which of the top 2 is better...
That's a very fair point Rich, and one that I think many people (clearly myself included) forget about.
Yes, for years the French were complaining about a "Two speed peloton" and most people, me included, figured it was just talk, and the French were making excuses for having no talented riders.
Now they have been vindicated and the French, and indeed lots of clean riders, have started winning races and stages. I hope this is just the start given the hoped for fallout from the Armstrong fiasco/scandal.0 -
ddraver wrote:RichN95 wrote:
The French teams deserve some credit. They were (mostly) doing the no doping stuff before Garmin existed.ddraver wrote:I think that the best 2 teams in terms of anti-doping are Sky and Garmin, the others are so so far behind that it's almost irrelevant which of the top 2 is better...
That's a very fair point Rich, and one that I think many people (clearly myself included) forget about.
The French got frightened silly by Festina...but dont forget good old Cofidis0 -
I'll admit to being a supporter of Sky since they started. It has been great being on the road side in the Tour supporting a British team (and this from a Scotsman :-) )
I am surprised on this forum (not just this thread) how much abuse Sky take. With their current stance they should be applauded and every other team saying nothing should be creating a huge thread.
With regards to their current statement, they have now set a very clear marker to all their employees. They are still a business that has to be run under employment rules. With the introduction of this contract they can get rid of anyone in the future that doesn't meet their standards. Maybe their mistake was to naively not do this at the start.
The issue they will have with Yates is under employment law they couldn't sack him without any evidence. His name is not mentioned anywhere or come up in any documentation apart from speculation on forums. If he really has done something in the past of course he won't confess now.Tri Coaching
https://www.h3otriathlon.com0 -
lochindaal wrote:I'll admit to being a supporter of Sky since they started. It has been great being on the road side in the Tour supporting a British team (and this from a Scotsman :-) )
I am surprised on this forum (not just this thread) how much abuse Sky take. With their current stance they should be applauded and every other team saying nothing should be creating a huge thread.
With regards to their current statement, they have now set a very clear marker to all their employees. They are still a business that has to be run under employment rules. With the introduction of this contract they can get rid of anyone in the future that doesn't meet their standards. Maybe their mistake was to naively not do this at the start.
The issue they will have with Yates is under employment law they couldn't sack him without any evidence. His name is not mentioned anywhere or come up in any documentation apart from speculation on forums. If he really has done something in the past of course he won't confess now.
Abuse? here?
You ought to check out the +7000 post thread in the Asylum.
However, the last post there pertains to this discussion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/sport ... =all&_r=1&
A long piece, but right at the bottom:At the last minute, the antidoping agency contacted one more cyclist — Michael Barry — because he had recently retired. Barry joined the others and told his doping tale.
“Ultimately, I was living a lie,” Barry said last week, adding that he should have been honest from the start, but he felt trapped because he would have lost his job for coming clean.
That's the only guarantee that comes with DB's bit of paper."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:A long piece, but right at the bottom:At the last minute, the antidoping agency contacted one more cyclist — Michael Barry — because he had recently retired. Barry joined the others and told his doping tale.
“Ultimately, I was living a lie,” Barry said last week, adding that he should have been honest from the start, but he felt trapped because he would have lost his job for coming clean.
That's the only guarantee that comes with DB's bit of paper.
But no-one at Garmin - who wouldn't have lost their jobs - spoke out either until the feds came calling and they had no choice but to tell the truth or perjure themselves.0 -
r0bh wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:A long piece, but right at the bottom:At the last minute, the antidoping agency contacted one more cyclist — Michael Barry — because he had recently retired. Barry joined the others and told his doping tale.
“Ultimately, I was living a lie,” Barry said last week, adding that he should have been honest from the start, but he felt trapped because he would have lost his job for coming clean.
That's the only guarantee that comes with DB's bit of paper.
But no-one at Garmin - who wouldn't have lost their jobs - spoke out either until the feds came calling and they had no choice but to tell the truth or perjure themselves.
Didn't lie about it though.
Nor did they say they'd be dope history free.
Sky do. So if they're not, there's a problem.0
