Genuine question for Frenchie

iainf72

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen comes across like a gormless idiot half the time when he's off the bike I know, but I doubt even he didn't know what the deal was....

I try not to think about that bit...

He may come across like that, but who's got a higher net worth? And the exceptionally hot missus.

skylla

FF, genuine question: If AC was exonerated from the OP doping case, why is he being called as a witness 28 Jan 2013?

TMR

dougzz wrote:

I agree with the Hincapie apologist, this was an unfair setup of the Bertie apologist. :roll:

I'm not an apologist :roll:

ratsbeyfus

This ones for you Frenchie - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IHBGKsDkhc - in the spirit of infant cordial and all that!

TMR

prawny wrote:

Du pain du vin du boursain?

It's 'Du pain, du vin, et du Boursain' :P

RichN95.

skylla wrote:

FF, genuine question: If AC was exonerated from the OP doping case, why is he being called as a witness 28 Jan 2013?

Far be it for me to jump in on Frenchie's question, or to defend Contador - if you were a prosecution lawyer on this case, wouldn't you call every rider on Liberty S, regardless of whether you thought they were guilty or not?

Bakunin

The Mad Rapper wrote:

dougzz wrote:

I agree with the Hincapie apologist, this was an unfair setup of the Bertie apologist. :roll:

I'm not an apologist :roll:

So says the man that actually posted: "I love George and always will."

George was vile and a fraud. I say that courteously however.

TMR

Bakunin wrote:

So says the man that actually posted: "I love George and always will."

George was vile and a fraud. I say that courteously however.

I suggest you go back to school.

Apologist - A person who argues in defence or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

Posting 'I love George and I always will' doesn't make me an apologist. I've offered no defence, I've simply stated that I accept what he did in the past and it doesn't change my regard for him.

I hope that clears things up for you and you can accept that. Or you can go f*ck yourself, whichever you prefer. I don't say that courteously. Obviously.

Jez mon

Nice one Mad Rapper!

As for Contador, as a young rider who displayed obvious talent, he rode for some extremely dodgy people. He currently rides for a DS who whilst AFAIK not being linked to any team-wide organized doping regimes (as a DS), does seem to have a somewhat lax attitude to doping.

Having said that, Frenchie does have some good points. Although he did win his first tour during one of the dirtiest tours in my memory (for riders getting caught)

RichN95.

While we're on this thread I would like to address another post which I can't find by someone who suggested that I attack Contador just because I don't like French Fighter.

Two points:

1. I don't like Contador. This comes from the beginning, not because of his positive test. I've never liked him - I don't know why - with me it's irrational gut reactions. (And strangely there is a personal reason why I should like him).

2. French Fighter. I don't dislike him. I never have. I don't know him. Even as someone who works in Intellectual Property I've stopped worrying about the photos. But I think he's passionate and enthusiastic. Where Contador is concerned he's a little over the top - verging on trolling - and I may react a little. But if I met him in real life, I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share and then argue the night away on almost every topic.

Anonymous

RichN95 wrote:

I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share

et du pain et du boursin, bien sur?

Bakunin

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

So says the man that actually posted: "I love George and always will."

George was vile and a fraud. I say that courteously however.

I suggest you go back to school.

Apologist - A person who argues in defence or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution.

Posting 'I love George and I always will' doesn't make me an apologist. I've offered no defence, I've simply stated that I accept what he did in the past and it doesn't change my regard for him.

I hope that clears things up for you and you can accept that. Or you can go f*ck yourself, whichever you prefer. I don't say that courteously. Obviously.

Ok -- your not an apologist according to your online definition. We can all applaud.

But your George love seems to be unconditional --apparently you have no problem accepting his lying, cheating, and fraud. Big George is a big hypocrite. He learned well from Armstrong.

He helped make the sport a joke -- and that's a fact.

I hope that clears things up, but it won't, because you seem f*cked.

dave_1

Timoid. wrote:

Given that :
- Doping was institutional on ONCE/Liberty Seguros until 2006 (Contador was there 2003 - 2006)
- Doping on Discovery was institutional until at least 2007 and probably beyond (Contador was there from 2007 - 2010)
- That Marti was central to all doping operations and was Contador's personal "coach" until recently (at least 2011)
- That Contador has a positive clen test and indications of blood doping from the 2010 Tour

Do you really believe that Contador is clean not just another pharmacological product?

Genuine question. I do not want this to turn into a Frenchie bashing session.

I do like French Fighter's passion for the sport. Don't really want to antagonise him however to defend Bert is not tenable. Bert is not authentic

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

But if I met him in real life, I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share and then argue the night away on almost every topic.

Some of us have. ;-)

Sort of.

TMR

Bakunin wrote:

Ok -- your not an apologist according to your online definition. We can all applaud.

Oh do grow up.

But your George love seems to be unconditional --apparently you have no problem accepting his lying, cheating, and fraud. Big George is a big hypocrite. He learned well from Armstrong.

Love is unconditional. You accept someone for their flaws and carry on any way.

Make no mistake though, I am disappointed, but I'm not really surprised. That's right, I'm not surprised - this week has only confirmed what I've suspected for some time. When I first became interested in Pro Cycling it was towards the end of the Armstrong era. I watched all the old races, but something didn't ring true about his victory on Stage 15 from Lézat-sur-Lèze to Pla d'Adet. He rode in an era when PED use was the norm, and it was clear that a rider could not compete at that level, against convicted dopers, unless he were also taking drugs.

That doesn't mean that I condone what he did, I don't. I won't even try to defend the indefensible.

He helped make the sport a joke -- and that's a fact.

Of course he did. He's as guilty as guilty can be. No argument there.

I hope that clears things up, but it won't, because you seem f*cked.

I went to the 2011 TdF Team Presentation at Puy de Foy with my wife and I met George. I thought all my Christmases had come at once. He was a really nice guy, very engaging and warm and took a few moments to chat. I still really like him and respect him as a rider - don't cry because I won't join you in tearing him down.

TMR

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

But if I met him in real life, I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share and then argue the night away on almost every topic.

Some of us have. ;-)

Sort of.

Sexy cyber chit-chat doesn't count big boy!

Yellow Peril

I respect Rapper's love of George even though I don't share it. However, I do think George is a useful barometer for the difference that drugs can make to a rider. For many years he was the ultimate super-domestique and I seem to remember he was touted as LA's successor. when LA retired he became a rider valued for his experience rather than his results, he just disappeared off the front of the peleton.

Without the pressure of doping and the environment of fear and bullying that I believe LA would have created I bet he really started to enjoy cycling.

My worry is that my hero Stannard gets busted for running on petrol instead of diesel.

frenchfighter

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

But if I met him in real life, I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share and then argue the night away on almost every topic.

Some of us have. ;-)

Sort of.

Sexy cyber chit-chat doesn't count big boy!

Make sure you pop along to the Christmas meet up this year MR!

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

While we're on this thread I would like to address another post which I can't find by someone who suggested that I attack Contador just because I don't like French Fighter.

Two points:

1. I don't like Contador. This comes from the beginning, not because of his positive test. I've never liked him - I don't know why - with me it's irrational gut reactions. (And strangely there is a personal reason why I should like him).

2. French Fighter. I don't dislike him. I never have. I don't know him. Even as someone who works in Intellectual Property I've stopped worrying about the photos. But I think he's passionate and enthusiastic. Where Contador is concerned he's a little over the top - verging on trolling - and I may react a little. But if I met him in real life, I would happily buy a bottle of wine to share and then argue the night away on almost every topic.

I don't dislike Rich either! I disagree with some of the things he says and find him pedantic on occasion, yet he has a lot of knowledge and is factual and reasoned. He also is realistic and often makes point others don't!

Remind me which riders you like Rich? Im surprised you talk about gut instinct above when i had you down as very rational.

None of it matters mucky. I guess a Tory supporter cannot understand why someone goes in for Labour and vv. Same with cyclists. Life would be very dull without diversity and contrast!

timoid.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

. I just cannot trust anyone who was a leader for a team run by Bruyneel. He would have to be the only one who stood up to Bruyneel in his entire tenure as DS.

.

You think Boonen was at least on the juice in 2002 then?

Dunno. Wouldn't surprise me, Do you think Lefevre runs a clean team? But looking at the USADA stuff it seems the real programmed doping was on the Tour. Boonen never rode the tour for USPS.

I probably don't like to think about Boonen too much as I really like him. Serious double standards, I know but if he came up with a positive clen test I wouldn't be shocked.

prawny

The Mad Rapper wrote:

prawny wrote:

Du pain du vin du boursain?

It's 'Du pain, du vin, et du Boursain' :P

Yeah but who got in there first :P

TMR

prawny wrote:

Yeah but who got in there first :P

Heh! You win the cookie!

prawny

The Mad Rapper wrote:

prawny wrote:

Yeah but who got in there first :P

Heh! You win the cookie!

I love cookies.

Bakunin

The Mad Rapper wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Ok -- your not an apologist according to your online definition. We can all applaud.

Oh do grow up.

But your George love seems to be unconditional --apparently you have no problem accepting his lying, cheating, and fraud. Big George is a big hypocrite. He learned well from Armstrong.

Love is unconditional. You accept someone for their flaws and carry on any way.

Make no mistake though, I am disappointed, but I'm not really surprised. That's right, I'm not surprised - this week has only confirmed what I've suspected for some time. When I first became interested in Pro Cycling it was towards the end of the Armstrong era. I watched all the old races, but something didn't ring true about his victory on Stage 15 from Lézat-sur-Lèze to Pla d'Adet. He rode in an era when PED use was the norm, and it was clear that a rider could not compete at that level, against convicted dopers, unless he were also taking drugs.

That doesn't mean that I condone what he did, I don't. I won't even try to defend the indefensible.

He helped make the sport a joke -- and that's a fact.

Of course he did. He's as guilty as guilty can be. No argument there.

I hope that clears things up, but it won't, because you seem f*cked.

I went to the 2011 TdF Team Presentation at Puy de Foy with my wife and I met George. I thought all my Christmases had come at once. He was a really nice guy, very engaging and warm and took a few moments to chat. I still really like him and respect him as a rider - don't cry because I won't join you in tearing him down.

OK -- fair enough.

greasedscotsman

I hate you all. None of you know half as much as I do about bike racing!

rick_chasey

Timoid. wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

. I just cannot trust anyone who was a leader for a team run by Bruyneel. He would have to be the only one who stood up to Bruyneel in his entire tenure as DS.

.

You think Boonen was at least on the juice in 2002 then?

Dunno. Wouldn't surprise me, Do you think Lefevre runs a clean team? But looking at the USADA stuff it seems the real programmed doping was on the Tour. Boonen never rode the tour for USPS.

I probably don't like to think about Boonen too much as I really like him. Serious double standards, I know but if he came up with a positive clen test I wouldn't be shocked.

I have the same.

I just look at what he did in 2002 compared to a juiced Museeuw and I think how could such a young guy have pretty muchas good legs.

In my head I imagine Lefevre as a passive DS re doping. Don't mention it much, expect riders to pass tests. Not quite like Bruyneel and Riis. No good reason to say so though. Just my overactive imagination.

TheBigBean

On topic, another factor in favour of Contador is that he hardly destroyed the opposition in 2007. He beat super clean Cadel by 23s and Leipheimer by 31s. You would think if he was an extra-terrestrial Bruyneel product he would have made it a bit easier for himself.

However, by 2009, things were a bit different. Although, if he needed a ride from his mechanic to get to the start of the TT, it is hard to imagine he was getting much team doping assistance i.e. he may have been doping but it is unlikely Bruyneel was masterminding it, so his association with Astana, in this case, shouldn't be that damming. (But his association with the Dr. is one he may have to explain...)

Finally, one of the best things about the CAS report was the way they didn't considered the questionable associations. This worked against Contador as well, as the farmer of his steak had some questionable clen convicted associates. I think this is important because otherwise we would have to consider Bassons a filthy drugs cheat, after all, he rode for Festina in 1998, so must be guilty.

itisaboutthebike

Ashenden (in a recent CN article) said that Bertie blood doped in the 2010 Tour...........thats good enough for me.

dave_1

I note down in the clinic there is some speculation as to whether rider 16 is Alberto Contador. Any views?

rick_chasey

Dave_1 wrote:

I note down in the clinic there is some speculation as to whether rider 16 is Alberto Contador. Any views?

*ignorant views from last week*

Rider 16?