Are Time Trials Safe?

sub55

Trev The Rev wrote:

I see Cycling Time Trials are encouraging using closed roads and are keen to develop a competition using closed roads, stately homes motor racing circuits and old airfields.

This is in my opinion the future of time trialling.

I also see they are saying that in the interests of fairness there should not be more than 1,000 vehicles per hour on dual carriageway courses or 500 vehicles per hour hour on single carriageway courses.

So they are saying that being passed by a vehicle travelling at up to and over 70mph every 3.6 seconds is not safe or fair competition presumably due to the pushing along effect of the passing vehicles.

How can being passed by a vehicle doing 50mph to 70mph or even faster every 3 or 4 seconds on a dual carriageway be anything but madness?

There are plenty of places to hold bicycle races; time trialling should move on and accept time trials on dual carriageways are as outdated as 32 and 36 spoke wheels and steel frames.

Here is the link I referred to.

http://www.ctt.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fi ... 90&mid=580

Nothing new there Trev , ctt been looking in that direction for years. Thats why they introduced the rudy project, all those years ago. Which has all gone down so well , all their events are over subscribed, aren't they.
Instead of sitting on here , preaching to us get hold of your district sec as theres still time just to promote an event yourself. On a course that you feel to be suitable. So go and find a motor racing circuit or similar , book it and do it.

DavidJB

As someone that road races much more than I TT I can confirm that paying £10-30 for entry and driving all over the country is a massive financial drain probably around £300-350 a month in the height of the season...just on getting there and being on the start line...if all I did was TT at my local club TT's I'd be paying £16 a month...

Not a lot of people can justify such a waste of money and using 'kit' as an argument is no reflection of how much disposable income someone has. A lot of them probably use credit to buy some of that kit!

All I know is I always seem well flush in the winter :P

Personally I actually agree with Kev (I feel dirty) that I think TT's on duel carriage ways are dangerous and personally I'd never ride them, but unlike him I'm not sticking my oar in telling anyone they can't ride them. Cycling is a dangerous sport but then so is getting in your car.

Trev The Rev

DavidJB wrote:

As someone that road races much more than I TT I can confirm that paying £10-30 for entry and driving all over the country is a massive financial drain probably around £300-350 a month in the height of the season...just on getting there and being on the start line...if all I did was TT at my local club TT's I'd be paying £16 a month...

Not a lot of people can justify such a waste of money and using 'kit' as an argument is no reflection of how much disposable income someone has. A lot of them probably use credit to buy some of that kit!

All I know is I always seem well flush in the winter :P

Personally I actually agree with Kev (I feel dirty) that I think TT's on duel carriage ways are dangerous and personally I'd never ride them, but unlike him I'm not sticking my oar in telling anyone they can't ride them. Cycling is a dangerous sport but then so is getting in your car.

Sorry you feel dirty mate.

To sum up. Many time triallists will not ride dual carriageway time trials. There are not enough off road circuits and many feel the entry fee would be too expensive. No one, other than me and perhaps the police, and most motorists, would like to see time trials on dual carriageways banned.

This year I did sponsor a road race. My local club still puts on TTs on the A50 despite the recent tragic death, (the second death in time trials on that road in the last 10 years). Next year I will investigate putting on a closed circuit TT, if I can find anyone in my club who still speaks to me to help out.

Thanks all on this forum for the polite way you have argued against my views.

Cheers

Trev.

danowat

Trev The Rev wrote:

To sum up. Many time triallists will not ride dual carriageway time trials.

Again, no stats to back this up, you just can't keep making things up.

The fact is quite possibly the opposite, seeing as DC time trials get more riders, and more full fields than any SC time trial does.

Also, surely the failure of the Rudy project shows what the majority of the time triallists want?

Trev The Rev

danowat wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

To sum up. Many time triallists will not ride dual carriageway time trials.

Again, no stats to back this up, you just can't keep making things up.

The fact is quite possibly the opposite, seeing as DC time trials get more riders, and more full fields than any SC time trial does.

Also, surely the failure of the Rudy project shows what the majority of the time triallists want?

Danowat,

People on this thread have said they don't or won't ride dual carriageway TTs. Even on timetrialling forum many people post the same. I have not counted the posts, but it is fair to say that many people do not ride dual carriageways. The majority of time triallists do prefer to ride dual carriageway TTs, yes agreed. This is because they are obsessed with fast times.

See this thread from timetrialling forum.

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=71881

Read it.

Trev.

danowat

Trev The Rev wrote:

danowat wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

To sum up. Many time triallists will not ride dual carriageway time trials.

Again, no stats to back this up, you just can't keep making things up.

The fact is quite possibly the opposite, seeing as DC time trials get more riders, and more full fields than any SC time trial does.

Also, surely the failure of the Rudy project shows what the majority of the time triallists want?

Danowat,

People on this thread have said they don't or won't ride dual carriageway TTs. Even on timetrialling forum many people post the same. I have not counted the posts, but it is fair to say that many people do not ride dual carriageways. The majority of time triallists do prefer to ride dual carriageway TTs, yes agreed. This is because they are obsessed with fast times.

Trev.

"Many" is an ambiguous term, the fact is the majority DO, and until such time as that majority shifts, or cycling on a DC becomes illegal (which has far greater ramifications than just TT'ing), then it will continue, whether you like it, or not.

Trev The Rev

Danowat,

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=71881


What was your interest in here?

Trev.

danowat

Trev The Rev wrote:

Danowat,

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=71881


What was your interest in here?

Trev.

Basically to see how viable a local closed circuit event was.

In short, the time, money and effort required compared to holding an event on a public road seriously outweighted any perceived benefit of such an event.

Is it safe to assume you are trying to "dig the dirt" in an attempt to discredit anything I have to say on the matter?

Team4Luke

I think if there were more use made of circuits ie motor racing circuits and the distances weren't too long (you can't do more than say 10mile, too much overlapping of riders and event would on all day long), perhaps say 5 laps could turn out to be popular and very competitive, certainly time gaps would be less even if similar names take the places, advantages of proper HQ, facilities and parking, probably have a go myself, would encourage the general rider to have a go too.
As for Rudy Project, never be successful, who wants to drive up and down the country to events especially with petrol costs, local hilly series events within districts are though very popular.

Rushmore

I blame wiggle...

Pross

Team4Luke wrote:

I think if there were more use made of circuits ie motor racing circuits and the distances weren't too long (you can't do more than say 10mile, too much overlapping of riders and event would on all day long), perhaps say 5 laps could turn out to be popular and very competitive, certainly time gaps would be less even if similar names take the places, advantages of proper HQ, facilities and parking, probably have a go myself, would encourage the general rider to have a go too.
As for Rudy Project, never be successful, who wants to drive up and down the country to events especially with petrol costs, local hilly series events within districts are though very popular.

and yet people do exactly that for National Trophy, Premier Calendar, National Women's RR Series, National Junior RR series, National Women's Team Series etc. etc.. People will also travel from all over the country to participate in a TT on a fast, dual-carriageway course such as the R25/3. The problem is that people who regularly ride time trials want to ride courses that allow them to improve their times rather than to beat other riders - this is also the attraction of time trialling, it gives you the chance to ride against yourself. The only way to get people more interested in sporting courses is to change the mindset from getting PBs to getting course records. That said, a well organised event on a sporting course such as the Beacon LMTT can also attract riders from far afield but I think that's more due to a reputation built over many years. Personally I prefer a sporting course but that's not to do with safety but the fact I get bored s**tless riding on dual carriageways.

bexslack

One thing I've suggested to CTT in recent months is that they consider having a road bike category in the Rudy Project series.

The road bike categories in the Beacon LMTT and the Richmond Park TTs are very popular. There are lots of people with road bikes who would like to TT but there are very few events where they don't feel handicapped in some way by not being on a TT bike, with aero wheels, helmet etc.

This year only 4 senior men and 2 women contested the Rudy Project series. What a shame.

Team4Luke

Pross wrote:

Team4Luke wrote:

I think if there were more use made of circuits ie motor racing circuits and the distances weren't too long (you can't do more than say 10mile, too much overlapping of riders and event would on all day long), perhaps say 5 laps could turn out to be popular and very competitive, certainly time gaps would be less even if similar names take the places, advantages of proper HQ, facilities and parking, probably have a go myself, would encourage the general rider to have a go too.
As for Rudy Project, never be successful, who wants to drive up and down the country to events especially with petrol costs, local hilly series events within districts are though very popular.

and yet people do exactly that for National Trophy, Premier Calendar, National Women's RR Series, National Junior RR series, National Women's Team Series etc. etc.. People will also travel from all over the country to participate in a TT on a fast, dual-carriageway course such as the R25/3. The problem is that people who regularly ride time trials want to ride courses that allow them to improve their times rather than to beat other riders - this is also the attraction of time trialling, it gives you the chance to ride against yourself. The only way to get people more interested in sporting courses is to change the mindset from getting PBs to getting course records. That said, a well organised event on a sporting course such as the Beacon LMTT can also attract riders from far afield but I think that's more due to a reputation built over many years. Personally I prefer a sporting course but that's not to do with safety but the fact I get bored s**tless riding on dual carriageways.

RR is far bigger and more competitive than hilly TT's and perhaps hence worth the trouble of travelling and don't forget what you mention there is highly made up of racing teams with travel and financial support.
TT yes your right, it's leading though to degredation of districts, why bother have local districts and courses epsecially if you don't have a fast DC in your district.
My district has some classic sporting courses as you say and they attract big fields and riders from away too.

Team4Luke

bexslack wrote:

One thing I've suggested to CTT in recent months is that they consider having a road bike category in the Rudy Project series.

The road bike categories in the Beacon LMTT and the Richmond Park TTs are very popular. There are lots of people with road bikes who would like to TT but there are very few events where they don't feel handicapped in some way by not being on a TT bike, with aero wheels, helmet etc.

This year only 4 senior men and 2 women contested the Rudy Project series. What a shame.

good idea, I keep trying to pursuade my club to run one of our evening events as road bike only as part of our local evening 10 league with the other clubs.

sub55

Team4Luke wrote:

bexslack wrote:

One thing I've suggested to CTT in recent months is that they consider having a road bike category in the Rudy Project series.

The road bike categories in the Beacon LMTT and the Richmond Park TTs are very popular. There are lots of people with road bikes who would like to TT but there are very few events where they don't feel handicapped in some way by not being on a TT bike, with aero wheels, helmet etc.

This year only 4 senior men and 2 women contested the Rudy Project series. What a shame.

good idea, I keep trying to pursuade my club to run one of our evening events as road bike only as part of our local evening 10 league with the other clubs.

I'm all for good suggestions as how an event promoter might improve things. However there was an event in south wales this year that had an SC condition of, no aero bike,wheels or clothing and it attracted 4 riders which makes me think it might not be financially viable. Should point out that the event was a strap on to the side of a fully open unrestricted event , which kind of demonstrate that riders want speed and time as apposed to weird and wonderful non specific catogaries. Now although promotors dont do it in order to it for a financial return for their clubs . They also cant justify losing money hand over fist. As long as riders want to ride fast courses , thats where promotors will promote.

Team4Luke

yes but riders were given an alternative there so they duly took it. I would imagine if someone organised a full open event for just road bikes, entries would be too low to go ahead. None TT bikes isn't going to have an effect on DC potential accident senarios but maybe more off-DC courses could be found/utilised more suitable for road bikes. I probably wouldn't ride my TT bike on some of my training roads but would ride my road bike in an event on them. I would also like to see more competitiveness brought in to TT, presently none even some events don't even had a team prize, I'm thinking of along lines of team prizes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd teams and maybe but like BC Club points system where clubs can see how many points they have against others, we could have similar for clubs/teams in TT over the season.

SBezza

Team4Luke wrote:

As for Rudy Project, never be successful, who wants to drive up and down the country to events especially with petrol costs, local hilly series events within districts are though very popular.

Might not be that successful for the seniors and womens (not sure why the womens events are low, I would have thought the chance to TT on quieter roads would have been a big appeal), but you will find that there is a distinct lack of seniors in alot of TT events, most riders below 40 would probably be doing RR or other types of cycling events, this is magnified in the Rudy Project I will admit, but it does have quality in the place of quanity, which to be fair is the same in all categories.

The Vets category of the Rudy Project is extremely healthy, and certainly is not a failure, as to the cost of travelling all across the country and mentioned above alot of TT riders do this anyhow travelling to the faster DC courses.

The reason it isn't as popular is the fact that they are odd distances and alot of riders ride for a set distance time, and are not interested in an odd distance where the only thing they can aim for is a placing. We are extremely lucky we have a choice in what sort of TT we can particpate in, if you don't like DC courses, there are plenty of SC and hilly TT events, and if you don't like those there is plenty of DC events. I know what I get more enjoyment out of, but I am happy to do both within reason.

Trev The Rev

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

NewTTer

Trev The Rev wrote:

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

That will be why there were 160 under 16 year olds happily competing on the GHS national FInal this September, all of them having qualified form regional rounds all over the country.
So at what age do people become old men.
Your judgement is severly clouded by whatever issue it is you have Time Trialling, I guess you maybe are not to good at it?
Why dont you keep your overtly bigoted opinions on the subject to yourself and allow those theat enjoy TTing to do so in peace, because it will have no effect on you whatsoever

danowat

Trev has some kind of sick obsession with a number of things (power meters, aero kit, pretty much anything that wasn't around in the 70's), getting TT's off public roads is just one of them, he's an evangelist, a soap box shouter, nothing more, nothing less.

Trev The Rev

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

That will be why there were 160 under 16 year olds happily competing on the GHS national FInal this September, all of them having qualified form regional rounds all over the country.
So at what age do people become old men.
Your judgement is severly clouded by whatever issue it is you have Time Trialling, I guess you maybe are not to good at it?
Why dont you keep your overtly bigoted opinions on the subject to yourself and allow those theat enjoy TTing to do so in peace, because it will have no effect on you whatsoever

If you look at the Gloucester CC 25 mile TT start sheet on CTT website, there are 31 Vets out of 43 entries. That is par for the course.

Out of 36 starters, 27 were vets. Time trialling is very much a sport for the older man.

NewTTer

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

That will be why there were 160 under 16 year olds happily competing on the GHS national FInal this September, all of them having qualified form regional rounds all over the country.
So at what age do people become old men.
Your judgement is severly clouded by whatever issue it is you have Time Trialling, I guess you maybe are not to good at it?
Why dont you keep your overtly bigoted opinions on the subject to yourself and allow those theat enjoy TTing to do so in peace, because it will have no effect on you whatsoever

If you look at the Gloucester CC 25 mile TT start sheet on CTT website, there are 31 Vets out of 43 entries. That is par for the course.

Out of 36 starters, 27 were vets. Time trialling is very much a sport for the older man.

Are you completely devoid of any intelligent thought, I quote an event that had 160 kids U16 riding, you counter this by quoting an event that has 27 vets in it, and you think it reinforces your warped and bigotted view point.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

Trev The Rev

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

That will be why there were 160 under 16 year olds happily competing on the GHS national FInal this September, all of them having qualified form regional rounds all over the country.
So at what age do people become old men.
Your judgement is severly clouded by whatever issue it is you have Time Trialling, I guess you maybe are not to good at it?
Why dont you keep your overtly bigoted opinions on the subject to yourself and allow those theat enjoy TTing to do so in peace, because it will have no effect on you whatsoever

If you look at the Gloucester CC 25 mile TT start sheet on CTT website, there are 31 Vets out of 43 entries. That is par for the course.

Out of 36 starters, 27 were vets. Time trialling is very much a sport for the older man.

Are you completely devoid of any intelligent thought, I quote an event that had 160 kids U16 riding, you counter this by quoting an event that has 27 vets in it, and you think it reinforces your warped and bigotted view point.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

I think your comments are close to abuse.

Most TTs other than the odd special event for children like the one you quote are senior events in which most competitors are vets over the age of 40. This is a well known fact, almost every open time trial has more vets than senior riders.

Trev The Rev

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

I still think TTs on dual carriageways should be banned but accept peoples right to take part in them whilst it is still legal.

I think time trials on closed circuits or closed roads are the future and CTT are right to encourage these types of event.

Obviously times will be slower on closed circuits without fast passing traffic but the times will be more representative of a riders ability and have meaning.

Time trials on dual carriageways are a thing of the past, the sport needs to look to the future or it will die off. Time trialling has become an old man's sport, it needs to move on.

That will be why there were 160 under 16 year olds happily competing on the GHS national FInal this September, all of them having qualified form regional rounds all over the country.
So at what age do people become old men.
Your judgement is severly clouded by whatever issue it is you have Time Trialling, I guess you maybe are not to good at it?
Why dont you keep your overtly bigoted opinions on the subject to yourself and allow those theat enjoy TTing to do so in peace, because it will have no effect on you whatsoever

If you look at the Gloucester CC 25 mile TT start sheet on CTT website, there are 31 Vets out of 43 entries. That is par for the course.

Out of 36 starters, 27 were vets. Time trialling is very much a sport for the older man.

Are you completely devoid of any intelligent thought, I quote an event that had 160 kids U16 riding, you counter this by quoting an event that has 27 vets in it, and you think it reinforces your warped and bigotted view point.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

I think your comments are close to abuse.

Most TTs other than the odd special event for children like the one you quote are senior events in which most competitors are vets over the age of 40. This is a well known fact, almost every open time trial has more vets than senior riders.

Take the Camel Valley 25 where there were 23 starters, 14 vets, 4 seniors, 3 Lady vets and 3 others.
The VC Norwich 10 had 48 starters of whom 41 were vets
The Seamons CC 25, 77 starters, 51 of whom were vets.

fish156

Why does having lots of 40+ riders neccessarily make time-trialling a dying sport? I suggest plenty of those riders are new to the sport, they simply choose that discipline over road-racing.

sub55

Are you completely devoid of any intelligent thought, I quote an event that had 160 kids U16 riding, you counter this by quoting an event that has 27 vets in it, and you think it reinforces your warped and bigotted view point.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

although Trev and I have views that are poles apart i like to think we can debate issues and have some banter along the way but to revert to comments like that in my mind you just lost any credibility .

NewTTer

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

NewTTer wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

It.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

I think your comments are close to abuse.

AND?

I am sure with your very warped and bigotted viewpoints you must be used to abuse, you attitudes and the way you try to force your strange ways onto others is bound to attract abuse, in the same way as a turd attracts flies.

So go figure.

NewTTer

sub55 wrote:

Are you completely devoid of any intelligent thought, I quote an event that had 160 kids U16 riding, you counter this by quoting an event that has 27 vets in it, and you think it reinforces your warped and bigotted view point.
Did you mother drop you on your head as a baby?

although Trev and I have views that are poles apart i like to think we can debate issues and have some banter along the way but to revert to comments like that in my mind you just lost any credibility .

Just aswell its only in YOUR mind then isnt it, or we would have the Lunatics running the asylum, and comments like what specificaly? I assume you mean the dropped on the head one? which I think you will find is fairly common parlance for someone who is thought to be a little unusaul with their thought processes, unless of course you have lead a majorly sheltered existence.

mattshrops

To be fair Trev i think most cycling EVENTS(not just tt's) are vet loaded. Our club is vet loaded. we have a good healthy bunch of juniors, only a few seniors and then vet city. Most seniors will have new mortgages, wives/husbands, kids etc to fund. As we all know those payments(and demands on our time) get a lot better as we get older. And not many parents allow juniors to TT on ANY roads.Fair enough they are kids after all.

Trev The Rev

NewTTer wrote:

I am sure with your very warped and bigotted viewpoints you must be used to abuse, you attitudes and the way you try to force your strange ways onto others is bound to attract abuse, in the same way as a turd attracts flies.

So go figure.

NewTTer,

Are you on timetrialling forum? There are a small minority of people on there too who can't argue without resorting to abuse.

Trev.

PS. I no longer hold the opinion that time trials on dual carriageways should be banned. But I do think there should be more closed circuit or closed road events for those that prefer not to ride on dual carriageways.