Are Time Trials Safe?

135

Comments

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Worth looking at the TRL report rather than the Guardian article for a full picture (if you're that way inclined, I've reviewed it as it's work related). You can download it for free here

    http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_collisions_involving_pedal_cyclists_on_britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm
  • mattshrops
    mattshrops Posts: 1,134
    Trev, i despair of people like you. Go and overregulate your own life. Leave mine alone. Life is a choice- leading to a thousand choices. I choose not to live in fear.
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • DavidJB
    DavidJB Posts: 2,019
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I would not want to ban road races because, there are no deaths, unlike time trials, where there are 2 to 4 riders killed each year.

    Some things are worse than death.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    what you need to realise TTR is that once you start down the slippery slope of banning DC TTing for this safety reason or that then what next? ban RR? limit it to ccts only? why stop there? ban cycling on puplic roads completely? ....... "if it saves just ONE life!"
    because if people like you have your way, that is where we would end up, regardless of any merit your original argument may or may not have had.
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    I agree - we don't want more regulation - when I read people on the TTF arguing for compulsory helmets though yet defending being allowed to ride DCs I do think hypocrites. Let people make their own mind up on both issues.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • sub55
    sub55 Posts: 1,025
    has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
    on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
    may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?
    constantly reavalueating the situation and altering the perceived parameters accordingly
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    sub55 wrote:
    has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
    on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
    may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?

    If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

    I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

    Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    sub55 wrote:
    has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
    on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
    may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?

    If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

    I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

    Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.

    Seriously bro, did your woman dump you for a TTer or something? Your comments are nothing more than the vitriolic ramblings of a very small man with a very large axe to grind.

    Oh and on my last 12hr TT I peed once around 9 hours in.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Grill wrote:
    Seriously bro, did your woman dump you for a TTer or something? Your comments are nothing more than the vitriolic ramblings of a very small man with a very large axe to grind.

    Oh and on my last 12hr TT I peed once around 9 hours in.

    I dumped all my ex wives some of whom said a lot of vitriolic things before they received the financial settlement.

    I note the only thing you have chosen to point out you do not do, out of the above vitriolic rambling, is urinate often. I commend the size of your bladder.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Indeed, that is because it's the first thing you mentioned. Looking at your list the only thing I've done is ride furiously round a roundabout, but only when clear and having the right of way.

    Much like all the in mode articles about how cyclists are lawless thugs responsible for the decay of civilization, you've just assembled a list of pet-peeves. To say that all, or even most of those who attend TTs exhibit the behavior you've put forth is ridiculous. A few incidents by fewer individuals does not make a sport unsafe. Suggesting that roads should not be multi-use is just silly. I ride almost every day and always hit busy roads and dual carriageways. It comes with the territory of living in the centre, and beyond that actually getting from A to B. None of it is commuting, it's all sport.

    I'm not worried about your soapbox preaching as long as no one takes you seriously. The reason I rarely mountain bike anymore is because I don't want to have to drive in order to ride, and I'll be damned if that's taken away from me on the road.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    sub55 wrote:
    has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
    on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
    may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?

    If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

    I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

    Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.

    Finally you've revealed your true colours. You don't like time triallists / time trialling so you dress this up with some nominal excuse to ban the sport.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Pross wrote:
    Finally you've revealed your true colours. You don't like time triallists / time trialling so you dress this up with some nominal excuse to ban the sport.

    I like time trialling on safe courses, not on dual carriageways. My earlier rant was not intended to be taken any more seriously than a bunch of old men dressed up in lycra and pointy hats pedaling up and down dual carriageways.
  • Team4Luke
    Team4Luke Posts: 597
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

    I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

    Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.


    above happens full stop. To the extent I won't argue with. But we do need to look at our behaviour, I see a lot of this and we ought to improve here.
    Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young
  • mattshrops
    mattshrops Posts: 1,134
    so sportive riders etc never ride 3 abreast?
    etc etc blah blah.
    I really dont know why i'm bothering to reply.
    (No doubt you will say <john major voice> yes but that doesnt make it right)

    I cannot understand you. Please go away. (Yes not very intelligent/eloquent answer blahdeblah)
    Why take something we enjoy and try to destroy it? If you really give a sh@t about peoples safety take your good intentions and use them to educate drivers(start a campaign or something) Do we really need internal divisions and strife? Maybe aggro is what floats your boat? I've read your posts on other topics and you're being all helpful etc but all i can think is you are worse than all the anti cycling gutter press all rolled into one.

    You dont like it/think its not safe-fine. Dont do it.
    If you dont do it- butt out.
    Death or Glory- Just another Story
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    I see Cycling Time Trials are encouraging using closed roads and are keen to develop a competition using closed roads, stately homes motor racing circuits and old airfields.

    This is in my opinion the future of time trialling.

    I also see they are saying that in the interests of fairness there should not be more than 1,000 vehicles per hour on dual carriageway courses or 500 vehicles per hour hour on single carriageway courses.

    So they are saying that being passed by a vehicle travelling at up to and over 70mph every 3.6 seconds is not safe or fair competition presumably due to the pushing along effect of the passing vehicles.

    How can being passed by a vehicle doing 50mph to 70mph or even faster every 3 or 4 seconds on a dual carriageway be anything but madness?

    There are plenty of places to hold bicycle races; time trialling should move on and accept time trials on dual carriageways are as outdated as 32 and 36 spoke wheels and steel frames.

    Here is the link I referred to.

    http://www.ctt.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fi ... 90&mid=580
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

    Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

    Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

    Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

    If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    I see Cycling Time Trials are encouraging using closed roads and are keen to develop a competition using closed roads, stately homes motor racing circuits and old airfields.

    This is in my opinion the future of time trialling.

    I also see they are saying that in the interests of fairness there should not be more than 1,000 vehicles per hour on dual carriageway courses or 500 vehicles per hour hour on single carriageway courses.

    So they are saying that being passed by a vehicle travelling at up to and over 70mph every 3.6 seconds is not safe or fair competition presumably due to the pushing along effect of the passing vehicles.

    How can being passed by a vehicle doing 50mph to 70mph or even faster every 3 or 4 seconds on a dual carriageway be anything but madness?    There are plenty of places to hold bicycle races; time trialling should move on and accept time trials on dual carriageways are as outdated as 32 and 36 spoke wheels and steel frames.

    Here is the link I referred to.

    http://www.ctt.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fi ... 90&mid=580

    It's nowt to do with safety (although I agree it should be), the count rules are there to give a level playing field to competitors. Getting passed every 3.6 seconds on a dual would be fine as there would be nothing in the overtaking lane on those figures so plenty of space for safe overtaking, in reality it would be one every 5 seconds or so with other vehicles in the second lane.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:
    In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

    Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

    Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

    Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

    If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.

    Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

    Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

    Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

    Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

    If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.

    Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.

    Again, your prejudicial attitude towards time trialling skews your viewpoint, I'd have said expensive kit is in the minority, at least at most of the events in my district, and I don't know anyone who has visited a wind tunnel.......
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

    Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

    Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

    Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

    If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.

    Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.

    Again, your prejudicial attitude towards time trialling skews your viewpoint, I'd have said expensive kit is in the minority, at least at most of the events in my district, and I don't know anyone who has visited a wind tunnel.......

    Last TT I did, which was on a sporting course, I was the only rider who did not have a TT bike and aero wheels & aero helmet. Last TT I watched on the A50 almost every rider had full TT bike, a rear disc and aero helmet & skinsuit. Many timetriallists have power meters which cost over £2,000 and pay for coaching.
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

    Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

    Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

    Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

    If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.

    Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.

    Again, your prejudicial attitude towards time trialling skews your viewpoint, I'd have said expensive kit is in the minority, at least at most of the events in my district, and I don't know anyone who has visited a wind tunnel.......
    Many timetriallists have power meters which cost over £2,000

    Really...............
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:

    Really...............

    http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/srm-20-c.asp

    Some there cost over £3000.
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    Which obviously means everyone is riding with a brand spanking new SRM, when the reality is, most people have cheap(er) powertaps, and/or secondhand kit......

    Do you really believe that the majority of people in time trialling have that kind of money to spunk on kit?, as I said, in my district, most people ride pretty modest kit.

    The type of people who are riding brand new kit that runs into thousands is the minority.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:
    Which obviously means everyone is riding with a brand spanking new SRM, when the reality is, most people have cheap(er) powertaps, and/or secondhand kit......

    Do you really believe that the majority of people in time trialling have that kind of money to spunk on kit?, as I said, in my district, most people ride pretty modest kit.

    The type of people who are riding brand new kit that runs into thousands is the minority.

    So most time triallists do have power meters then?

    Planet x have a reputation for reasonably priced TT bikes.

    http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/bikes/q ... -triathlon
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    Which obviously means everyone is riding with a brand spanking new SRM, when the reality is, most people have cheap(er) powertaps, and/or secondhand kit......

    Do you really believe that the majority of people in time trialling have that kind of money to spunk on kit?, as I said, in my district, most people ride pretty modest kit.

    The type of people who are riding brand new kit that runs into thousands is the minority.

    So most time triallists do have power meters then?

    Without stat's, I'd say less than 50% do.
  • SBezza
    SBezza Posts: 2,173
    danowat wrote:
    Trev The Rev wrote:
    danowat wrote:
    Which obviously means everyone is riding with a brand spanking new SRM, when the reality is, most people have cheap(er) powertaps, and/or secondhand kit......

    Do you really believe that the majority of people in time trialling have that kind of money to spunk on kit?, as I said, in my district, most people ride pretty modest kit.

    The type of people who are riding brand new kit that runs into thousands is the minority.

    So most time triallists do have power meters then?

    Without stat's, I'd say less than 50% do.

    I think it is safe to say the minority have powermeters, and high end bikes etc. Now if you choose an event that some of the fastest national guys and girls at it, then that figure will be higher. For the majority of TT's alot of riders ride without much expensive equipment at all.

    As for skinsuits and helmets etc, these can be bought very cheaply either as 2nd hand or not using the top end manufacturers. Same can be said for wheels etc, I know people that have more expensive wheels than I have and only do club runs and sportive, so not all TT riders have cash to spunk on equipment.
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    Obviously there are many working to a budget, but many do buy new, where do you think the 2nd hand stuff comes from? They can't all be buying 2nd hand or stolen off E bay.

    Entry fee cost is minimal compared to the amount spent on equipment and to my mind safety is worth paying a bigger entry fee.

    I know this particular time triallist may have more equipment than most but I can't resist posting this.

    eileithyia
    Lo-Pro + tri

    Advanced

    5,884 posts
    Posted 5 hours ago
    andrewgreen, on 14 October 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:
    One if the biggest changes is just simply the fact that race bikes are specialised. The ride to events and sleep in a b&b etc way of things is very appealing to make the most of a long weekend. I'm not going for a nice spin to kip in a b&b and ride home on a TT bike with disc, carbon front wheel and a pointy hat though. A one bike for all things made that simple.

    Main reason I know have a van, I used to take a bike with clip on bars to races and ride it afterwards around the lanes with different wheels in.
    Now we take 4 bikes to races, or 2 bikes and tandem.... so we can race bikes and spare bikes to go for a ride afterwards.
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    I think the entry fee issue is outweighted by the laps issue, but I'd still prefer to pay £7 a week to ride on public roads than £30 a week on going round and round and round a closed circuit.

    If you really want to see where the money spunking is taking place, check out the sportive circuit, some serious cash being splurged there........
  • Trev The Rev
    Trev The Rev Posts: 1,040
    danowat wrote:
    I think the entry fee issue is outweighted by the laps issue, but I'd still prefer to pay £7 a week to ride on public roads than £30 a week on going round and round and round a closed circuit.

    If you really want to see where the money spunking is taking place, check out the sportive circuit, some serious cash being splurged there........

    I am aware of the animosity expressed on timetrialling forum towards sportives.
  • SBezza
    SBezza Posts: 2,173
    How many bikes someone has has little relation to their financial circumstances, I have 4 bikes, yet all are low end bikes of differing natures as I enjoy all types of cycling, eyt I wouldn't be able to justify spending £30 to enter an event (one reason I stopped doing sportives ;) )

    Trev you say there is alot of closed circuits for TT's, well I can assure you there are not alot of them, they do exist, and I think they will become more frequent, but to say all TT's could go to closed circuits (forget closed roads that would never happen) is a bit of a silly thing to say.

    As cyclists we are allow by law to cycle down a DC, whether it be commuting, training, touring or racing (I admit there are some we are not allowed on). If you were to ban racing down a DC, you need to ban all of the others as well, you would be impacting alot of cyclists just to achieve your fixated idea that TT's on a DC shouldn't be allowed.

    I race all types of courses and even some lovely SC rural course has it's dangers from riders, car drivers, horse riders, pedestrians, blind corners, pot holed roads. Nothing is 100% safe I think you will agree, and as long as an activity is legal there is no reason to harp on about it being dangerous, riding on the public highway is dangerous to a degree FULL STOP.

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