Modern Morals....

dylanfernley

eremy Kyle fodder at best I think.

Need to be careful there,as much as i detest that programme and its makers, the people who are 'encouraged' to perform on it are a different matter,exploitation of ignorance is not clever,and of course the irony is the people who watch it for 'fun'

jedster

We know a couple of families (good friends actually) that have boys that have diagnoses somewhere on the autistic spectrum. Every now and again they get stick at school (from other kids, the odd teacher) that hasn't got properly challenged. Makes my blood boil.

Frank the tank

jedster wrote:

We know a couple of families (good friends actually) that have boys that have diagnoses somewhere on the autistic spectrum. Every now and again they get stick at school (from other kids, the odd teacher) that hasn't got properly challenged. Makes my blood boil.

Autism is a very broad spectrum. My son has aspergers which is classed as able autistic (this condition has a range within it). My personal experience is that if a child at the more able end of the spectrum has good parenting and the neccessary resourses are put in early doors from professionals and volunteers groups etc; they will be able to make their way in the world. However if the opposite is true and a child is severely autistic that is a very different situation all together. Not a hopeless one but one that demands a different approach.

finchy

Here's one right from the other end of the spectrum... now, as most of you know, I'm a thoroughly wonderful person, and try to avoid judging anyone with any sort of condition like that.

However, in the past few of months, I have found myself asking on three occasions why I have had to suffer the consequences of the need for integration.

Firstly, we had a neighbour who is diagnosed with Asperger's and autism (sorry, not quite sure of the difference). He made life absolute hell for everyone around him. He played his music way too loud, making our flat shake, drove his motorbike like a cretin up and down our drive (shared between 3 properties, but officially belonging to another neighbour who has 2 girls that he would no longer let out of the back garden unsupervised in case they got hit by him coming down the drive too fast), we found out that he was keeping over a litre of highly flammable nitro fuel in his flat (and if that had gone up and burnt down our flat as well as his, I really can't see whose insurance would have covered us) until we forced him to get rid of it and about a million other things. By the time he got moved on, everyone around was at the end of their tether and social services were of f**k all use in dealing with him. All they ever did was make up excuses.

The second occasion was an Open University study week. In our group we had one young man who, again, is autistic. We all tried our best to help him fit in - inviting him to the bar, to the disco and doing pair work with him, but at the end of the week we just couldn't take it anymore. He was constantly interrupting the tutors, holding up our work with nit-picking points, being very rude to other members of the group and at one point, having had a few too many to drink, even threatening physical violence. Having paid about £600 for a study week which many of us hoped would help us to further our careers, we were wondering why the study plans of 15 other people should be disrupted because one other person had been sent on a course without appropriate supervision (ie someone to accompany him and whisper STFU in his ear every 2 minutes).

Finally, and a very different case, when I was in hospital this week, I was on the same ward as a man who was suffering maybe from advanced senility, maybe from Alzheimer's. He did a crap on the floor next to my bed, p1ssed all other the floor next to another bed. He often soiled his pyjama bottoms and stank out the entire ward, then got very argumentative and aggressive with the nurses when they tried to change his underwear, pyjamas or bed sheets, even going as far as to hit 2 of them. This would last until gone one o'clock in the morning, which is just what you want when you're getting over an operation. He often got up and staggered around the ward into other people's areas. Now, when you are lying there unable to move because you've just had an operation on a broken leg, and you've got a massive frame pinned into your bones, I can tell you that it's very scary seeing an old man with little self-control staggering within easy distance of your leg. If he'd fallen onto that, f**k knows what the consequences would have been.

So, my question is this... while it is undoubtedly a good thing that society becomes more understanding, and hopefully attitudes such as the fat chav dmc encountered will one day be a thing of the past, how do we go on to manage such disorders/conditions/illnesses/whatever they should be termed so that those who have them can fit into society without seriously spoiling things for other people? I'm not talking about minor irritations here, I'm talking about genuinely making life far worse.

tim_wand

So, my question is this... while it is undoubtedly a good thing that society becomes more understanding, and hopefully attitudes such as the fat chav dmc encountered will one day be a thing of the past, how do we go on to manage such disorders/conditions/illnesses/whatever they should be termed so that those who have them can fit into society without seriously spoiling things for other people? I'm not talking about minor irritations here, I'm talking about genuinely making life far worse.

I' m sorry John I 'm find it very difficult to conceed your point " I m not talking about minor irritations here, I 'm talking about genuinely making life far worse"

Actually John compared with suffering through no fault of your own, or being the full time carer of someone with Autism/ Aspergers or dementia, then you are just experiencing a brief insight into their lifes and issues.

We have all had anti-social neighbours, or attended courses with disruptive people, you dont have to be autistic or have any disorder on the autistic spectrum to behave like that.

My Mum good bless her was that out of it in Hospital on Morphine when she was dying with Cancer that she would frequently wander around her mixed ward naked and disorientated.

If anything you highlight how poorly equipped and informed organisations and the general public are in supporting people with these conditions effectively.

I think its a bit ambivalent at best to just adopt the view point of how much inconvenience exposure to people with these conditions who have not been particularly well supported has caused you. I m sure it had a far greater impact on their lives than yours.

Frank the tank

When in hospital after my hip op there was a patient opposite who was just so confused nothing to the degree JF refers but seriously confused. It was the first time I'd witnessed anyone in such a state, I felt really sorry for him and his family.

During my short stay he had numerous visits from various members of his family and various professionals (social worker/doctors) He was telling them all sorts of varying accounts and his reality was certainly different to actual reality. Poor soul he seemed to be physically able to do things but his confused state of mind was a serious inhibitor to his independance. I witnessed first hand the conflict being caused within his family by his confusion and the desperate position they were in trying to do what they knew was best for him but he could not get a handle on.

A sad situation for them all, and god forbid not a situation I'd ever want to be in from either side of the fence.

pinno

johnfinch wrote:

...I can tell you that it's very scary seeing an old man with little self-control staggering within easy distance of your leg. If he'd fallen onto that, f**k knows what the consequences would have been.

Ha ha - I bet he's behaving like an angel now you are out of the ward. What that was all about was the fact that your blistering bionic legs was putting him off his food.

finchy

tim wand wrote:

I' m sorry John I 'm find it very difficult to conceed your point " I m not talking about minor irritations here, I 'm talking about genuinely making life far worse"

In the case of our neighbour, no it didn't. I came up to my flat to find my wife crying because of his constant anti-social behaviour on several occasions. He made the lives of us and everyone else who lived next to him an absolute misery. Without exaggeration, he endangered other people's lives including mine and my wife's. Is that just a minor inconvenience?

Again, if you were in hospital, more or less complete immobile with a painful injury and there were someone who can barely stand on his own two feet staggering about at the bottom of your bed then you would agree with me that this is not just a minor inconvenience.

I'm not being judgemental about the one in the hospital or the one at the Open University study school, as I know it genuinely wasn't their fault (our neighbour, on the other hand, showed that he knew how to behave when he was threatened with losing his flat), but somehow the professionals have to find ways of balancing the rights of those who have the conditions with those who live around them.

dylanfernley

John finch-- just out of interest, you referred to 'the fat chav'-- that dmc had an issue with. He makes no mention of her size or socio economic appearance--- so i take it this is an image you have projected in your mind and then on here. Its easy to see how things get nuanced in the re-telling, and thats with bomb proof evidence to the contrary.

This is how prejudice is amplified and re-inforced, sure she was an ignorant person, but the rest is your conjecture.

finchy

dylanfernley - you're right, dmc referred to her as "Jeremy Kyle fodder" and I got that confused with another story I've heard recently.

pinno

Ultimately - (only because I see some backtracking and people being forced to retract certain comments. I also see how we all get led by the nose down the PC route).

Don't you think actions speak louder than words ? In most cases here, no one is going to actively bully Autistics or start openly taking the pi$$ out of 'window lickers'. I don't see whats the big problem ?
I work with adults from a variety of backgrounds and the banter is healthy and we call each other all sorts of things and its a breath of fresh air because we are not drowning in PC sh1t. If we start treading on eggshells, do we suddenly have to watch everything we say because someone somewhere is going to be offended ?
If you do not act on your words in any form whatsoever, what is the problem?

Your all a bunch of spivs (whatever the hell that means). :P Allah is a tw4t, the Virgin Mary was a wishful thinker, Moses was a basket, the Yanlks are all gay, shoot the choochtas...

finchy

pinarello001 - funny you should mention this, but the reason I made my post is that I had just posted in my "Just out of hospital thread" about the old man doing a poo on the floor next to my bed while in hospital.

At first, I thought it was just a funny little story to add to the thread, but then I asked myself what really is the difference between me posting that (given the fact that the bloke was not responsible for his own actions) and calling a kid a "window-licker"?

Obviously the difference is that I would never have said anything nasty to him or his family, but apart from that... is there any?

pinno

johnfinch wrote:

pinarello001 - funny you should mention this, but the reason I made my post is that I had just posted in my "Just out of hospital thread" about the old man doing a poo on the floor next to my bed while in hospital.

At first, I thought it was just a funny little story to add to the thread, but then I asked myself what really is the difference between me posting that (given the fact that the bloke was not responsible for his own actions) and calling a kid a "window-licker"?

Obviously the difference is that I would never have said anything nasty to him or his family, but apart from that... is there any?

My brother is Autistic and he's a tw4t, but he is my brother and I love him. My sister is the quintissentail selfish she bitch from hell, but that doesn't make me sexist.

Carefull you don't become the new stalking troll now you have much more time on your hands, Crotchety legs ward monster. Bet your glad you shave your legs now and you thought it was pointless. Have you got a long stick for the itchy bits? Finchy - bet your a 'carpet dribbler', speshly when you try to crawl to the toilet.

dylanfernley

the problem lies in the perception, in each others company we have many clues that go with dialogue, on a screen its a bit lacking---- i agree that there is danger of going PC overdose, but not all PC is negative-- think we need a dose of jerry sadowitz .....

tim_wand

Johnfinch. I ve read quite a few post of yours on here and in areas of forum, and find most of them well considered, humorous and on the right side of provacative to encourage debate, which is surely what this place is all about when the commuters arent around.

Theres many a time in day to day life I find myself getting exasperated by my fellow human being, I was stood in the shop tonight behind a young woman who brought £30 quids worth of booze and numerous scratch cards to celebrate the fact that the council had just given her a bigger house, who then had the temerity to fall out with the shop keeper because he wouldnt let her pay with Milk tokens for her fags.

Its hard not to be reactionary and to be fair this forum should be a good place to vent our spleen, I m just glad that there are opposing views around that cant make the more intelligent of us consider other prospectives and you are certainly one of those who frequently makes me consider mine, and therefore try and learn something new from it.

finchy

Tim - and I love you too You're sound and you've got your head screwed on the right way.

Basically, I am on the side of you and dmc in terms of combating prejudice against those with mental disabilities and my post was really meant to be about how to give people like those I mentioned the appropriate support needed to live reasonably dignified lives within wider society. I hope that nobody read it in any other way.

dylanfernley

who then had the temerity to fall out with the shop keeper because he wouldnt let her pay with Milk tokens for her fags.

There was a time when the milkman would deliver all sorts in exchange for the tokens, we used to get Baileys at chrimbo , suppose it does have some milk in it.

dylanfernley

john finch-- i was playing devils advocate a bit TBH, but my point was that its easy to misconstrue,do it meself.

As for me, you can say anything you like, i'm as sick as they come....

Frank the tank

I believe that early intervention is key with conditions such as aspergers.

I keep refering to my son but obviously he's the one I have the most experience of. He turned out as he has because of hard work and a lot of effort. There are no doubt a lot of other conditions which benefit from a similar stratagy. However, in these austere times I think the sort of care and nurturing required to enable such people to become productive/independent citizens will become an early casualty. No doubt storing trouble up for further generations.

siamon

Of course, I wouldn't want to pi$$ all over this self righteous and pompous wonk fest but didn't DMC lose any right to moan, the second he referred to the thoughtless cretin as Jeremy Kyle fodder?

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

pliptrot wrote:

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

Try explaining to your 7 year old son the reason he was not invited to a classmates birthday party (when the rest of the class, all 31, were invited) because his mum told me at the school gates, "I'm not having that window licker at Skye's party".

In a varied life, I have never come across anyone so crass and offensive. You must have incredible self restraint and dignity not to have assaulted her. Intolerance is a direct result of ignorance, and we are all the better for rising above it. The bigger people of the world will always be supportive.

I had to walk away. I still see her now and just hate the way she made me feel and the effect she had on Rob (my son). Jeremy Kyle fodder at best I think.

...incredible self restraint and dignity not to have assaulted her... so its ok to batter a woman at the school gates in front of a load of children but not to indulge in name calling?

How morally retarded can you get?

Or is this another ironic thread?

finchy

siamon wrote:

Of course, I wouldn't want to pi$$ all over this self righteous and pompous wonk fest

It's called intelligent conversation.

siamon wrote:

but didn't DMC lose any right to moan, the second he referred to the thoughtless cretin as Jeremy Kyle fodder?

What is so bad about what he said? This woman obviously caused him, and possibly his children, a lot of emotional pain.

siamon wrote:

...incredible self restraint and dignity not to have assaulted her... so its ok to batter a woman at the school gates in front of a load of children but not to indulge in name calling?

Nobody's saying that would have been OK. Sometimes, though, under times of real emotional stress, people cross the line and do things which are completely unacceptable. I saw it in the case of my ex-neighbour when I had to step in to stop my other neighbour from smacking his head in after a year of provocation.

You see, that's self-restraint - keeping yourself in the right at times when you could have acted differently.

Smokin Joe

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

Try explaining to your 7 year old son the reason he was not invited to a classmates birthday party (when the rest of the class, all 31, were invited) because his mum told me at the school gates, "I'm not having that window licker at Skye's party".

I'd have been very tempted to draw a mouthful of gob from as far down as I could and let her have it in the face. Though I guess in reality I would have been too shocked to do any more than stand there open mouthed.

tim_wand

Smokin Joe wrote:

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

Try explaining to your 7 year old son the reason he was not invited to a classmates birthday party (when the rest of the class, all 31, were invited) because his mum told me at the school gates, "I'm not having that window licker at Skye's party".

I'd have been very tempted to draw a mouthful of gob from as far down as I could and let her have it in the face. Though I guess in reality I would have been too shocked to do any more than stand there open mouthed.

I would have booked two male strippers for her party and had them headed off at the pass by social services just as they got to the door.

Frank the tank

Siamon, what's self rightious about people relating their own personal experience of others' intolerence/ignorance?

mm1

Arrogant and dismissive baviour and offensive language might be cool if you are a 13 year old schoolboy or a member of the Cabinet, but is it really necessary or ok for the rest of us?

dmclite-3.0

siamon wrote:

Of course, I wouldn't want to pi$$ all over this self righteous and pompous wonk fest but didn't DMC lose any right to moan, the second he referred to the thoughtless cretin as Jeremy Kyle fodder?

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

pliptrot wrote:

dmclite-3.0 wrote:

Try explaining to your 7 year old son the reason he was not invited to a classmates birthday party (when the rest of the class, all 31, were invited) because his mum told me at the school gates, "I'm not having that window licker at Skye's party".

In a varied life, I have never come across anyone so crass and offensive. You must have incredible self restraint and dignity not to have assaulted her. Intolerance is a direct result of ignorance, and we are all the better for rising above it. The bigger people of the world will always be supportive.

I had to walk away. I still see her now and just hate the way she made me feel and the effect she had on Rob (my son). Jeremy Kyle fodder at best I think.

...incredible self restraint and dignity not to have assaulted her... so its ok to batter a woman at the school gates in front of a load of children but not to indulge in name calling?

How morally retarded can you get?

Or is this another ironic thread?

Deep irony, funny troll.

siamon

Frank the tank wrote:

Siamon, what's self rightious about people relating their own personal experience of others' intolerence/ignorance?

A fair question that warrants an explanation:

It wasn't the personal experiences that I was commenting on, it was the reactions to the original post.

It seems someone has made a personal and derogatory comment about a child and then allowed their prejudice or ignorance to exclude the child from joining in a party with his friends. The result being DMC is understandably peeved on behalf of his son. I don't know how DMC's son behaves but maybe the parent could have said, "look, obviously he is welcome to come to the party but would you mind if you came as well because I am not an expert in dealing with kids with autism?"

The response from the forum however, is to indulge in the very same name calling which is what caused DMC's distress in the first place. This is extremely hypocritical and suggests a total lack of self awareness. To compound this, several individuals have suggested punching or spitting in this womans face would have been an appropriate response. The thread title is modern morals, hence my irony comment. Spitting in a womans face who it would seem may have some kind of learning difficulties is rather antisocial. Therefore, from whats been said, its my opinion that the (self righteous) name callers and purveyors of violence are just as guilty as the woman who made the original comment and yet they seem to have climbed on their high horses with no apparent awareness that they are possibly behaving no differently from woman who caused the original distress.

For someone to then refer to this discussion as "intelligent conversation" beggars belief. Actually it is a load of emotionally immature, self righteous, judgemental dross.

At the end of the day bringing up any child will involve happy and sad scenarios. I understand that parents with kids with a form of autism may have more than their fair share of the latter but I would bet my house that DMC has plenty of happy memories as well.

Any parent has to take a few hits on behalf of their kids and it's far better the comment was made to DMC rather than his son. And of course, can DMC honestly say he has never ever made a intentionally hurtful comment to someone based on his perception of their mental capabilities, physical deficiencies, race etc etc? No.

In my view, the first course of action (for DMC) would have been to have a word with the Head teacher and asked them to ensure the offending parent was educated appropriately & moderated her behaviour. What kind of example is she setting her kid(s)?

dylanfernley

Actually it is a load of emotionally immature, self righteous, judgemental dross.

n my view, the first course of action (for DMC) would have been to have a word with the Head teacher and asked them to ensure the offending parent was educated appropriately & moderated her behaviour. What kind of example is she setting her kid(s)?

So you would expect another adult(headteacher) to resolve your issues with this woman, surely its better to wait for an appropriate time to tackle her yourself?

She sounds like a straight talking type, so would prefer it from the horses mouth don't you think ?

finchy

siamon wrote:

The response from the forum however, is to indulge in the very same name calling which is what caused DMC's distress in the first place. This is extremely hypocritical and suggests a total lack of self awareness.(...) Therefore, from whats been said, its my opinion that the (self righteous) name callers and purveyors of violence are just as guilty as the woman who made the original comment and yet they seem to have climbed on their high horses with no apparent awareness that they are possibly behaving no differently from woman who caused the original distress.

Can you really see no difference between (i) initiating the problem by calling the child a highly offensive name right to the parent's face and (ii) people letting off steam in reaction to her behaviour on a forum?

siamon wrote:

For someone to then refer to this discussion as "intelligent conversation" beggars belief.

You didn't actually tell us that you were referring to the suggestions of physical violence when you made your original comment. There have been lots of interesting comments on this thread and I was defending the thread as a whole.

siamon wrote:

Actually it is a load of emotionally immature, self righteous, judgemental dross.

Really? Well, I've had a look at your comment history because I was sure your name rang a bell. From what I can see you pop up at fairly regular intervals to chide people for what they've posted and tell them just what a terrible person they are.

dylanfernley

From what i can see, Siamon on this thread shoots from the hip at first, then when asked to expand his comments, he gives it some more thought, and comes with a half argued post regarding 'hypocrisy' -- but then proceeds to accuse all on here of having no perspective.

his own 'solution' is to give the problem to someone else(headteacher)

class