Big difference between climbs and flats

2

Comments

  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    white91 wrote:
    What do you squat?
    The answer to this has zero relevance to the topic
    Why was your earlier point highlighting cycling is aerobic, if you understand that it is both aerobic and anaerobic?
    Because cycling can be anaerobic. It is not anaerobic anywhere close to all of the time.
    What was your leg injury?
    Again this has zero relevance
    Are you aware how a strong core helps you cycle?
    Uhh yes.
    Can you bring anything more to the forum other than sweeping statements with no real substance?
    Can you?

    I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time with you but anyway.
    RandG wrote:
    I'm finding this "debate" quite amusing....carry on, both of you :lol:


    One little thing I would add is you need initial leg strength to be able to cycle well and good core strength is always a benefit. I haven't been cycling long and will be going to the gym once the dark nights are here to work on my leg strength, as I feel mine are weak as pish at the moment....anyway, ignore me, carry on you two :D
    Most people who can walk up stairs have some abilty to cycle already. Base strength is already plentiful,it's the cardiovascular ability to sustain it that counts.

    The gym simply will not help you as much as actually riding your bike will.
  • peejay78
    peejay78 Posts: 3,378
    i'm wondering what sort of times and results these two chaps have with all this utter certainty about the respective benefits of strength/power/whatever.

    be nice to see the concrete benefits of either approach.
    http://traumradfahren.wordpress.com/
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    peejay78 wrote:
    i'm wondering what sort of times and results these two chaps have with all this utter certainty about the respective benefits of strength/power/whatever.

    be nice to see the concrete benefits of either approach.
    Wonder away. Strength and power are two different things. The latter is required(sustainably) in cycling,the former is not.
  • peejay78
    peejay78 Posts: 3,378
    you're very defensive.

    it's be nice to see share some of the outcomes with the beginners in the forum so they can benefit from this approach too?
    http://traumradfahren.wordpress.com/
  • RandG
    RandG Posts: 779
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

    The gym simply will not help you as much as actually riding your bike will.

    I'm not disputing at all, in any shape or form, however, I'm fecked if I'm going out in the dark night of the Winter to cycle, I'm a big fairdy me :lol:
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    peejay78 wrote:
    you're very defensive.

    it's be nice to see share some of the outcomes with the beginners in the forum so they can benefit from this approach too?
    Outcomes of what? Are you trying to incite some sort of willy-waving contest?

    Perhaps instead of trying to stir sh1t up, you could offer something of worth to the thread? (For the benefit of the beginners of course)
  • peejay78
    peejay78 Posts: 3,378
    crikey. i'm out. you're a very angry young man.
    http://traumradfahren.wordpress.com/
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,305
    If you've read the history of this subject on Bike Radar, you might appreciate why tempers wear a bit thin. Before anyone else posts, it might be a good idea to plough through this thread. In particular, please do read Alex Simmons' contributions carefully - I think you'd have to admit he does speak with some reasonable authority on the issue. What comes up time and time again is that those promoting strength work seem unable to differentiate between strength and power, and until that is understood there is little point in having a debate, as we might as well just be shouting at each other in different languages. Quite entertaining thought that is for a while, it won't actually get us anywhere.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • RandG
    RandG Posts: 779
    briantrumpet wrote:
    If you've read the history of this subject on Bike Radar, you might appreciate why tempers wear a bit thin. Before anyone else posts, it might be a good idea to plough through this thread. In particular, please do read Alex Simmons' contributions carefully - I think you'd have to admit he does speak with some reasonable authority on the issue. What comes up time and time again is that those promoting strength work seem unable to differentiate between strength and power, and until that is understood there is little point in having a debate, as we might as well just be shouting at each other in different languages. Quite entertaining thought that is for a while, it won't actually get us anywhere.

    I'm 8 pages in, fascinating reading, though I'm gonna have to go back to it, I have work on Monday :lol:
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,305
    RandG wrote:
    I'm 8 pages in, fascinating reading, though I'm gonna have to go back to it, I have work on Monday :lol:
    It's a classic thread for me - a good ding-dong between P_Tucker (or is it Malcom Tucker?) and Dennisn (whose twin specialities of Lance Armstrong and leg strength haven't changed), calm explanation from Alex Simmons, and a few walk-on parts from long-forgotten character actors. Really, I think it could replace Waiting for Godot as the next big thing in the theatre.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • white91
    white91 Posts: 431
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    white91 wrote:
    What do you squat?
    The answer to this has zero relevance to the topic
    Why was your earlier point highlighting cycling is aerobic, if you understand that it is both aerobic and anaerobic?
    Because cycling can be anaerobic. It is not anaerobic anywhere close to all of the time.
    What was your leg injury?
    Again this has zero relevance
    Are you aware how a strong core helps you cycle?
    Uhh yes.
    Can you bring anything more to the forum other than sweeping statements with no real substance?
    Can you?

    I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time with you but anyway.
    RandG wrote:
    I'm finding this "debate" quite amusing....carry on, both of you :lol:


    One little thing I would add is you need initial leg strength to be able to cycle well and good core strength is always a benefit. I haven't been cycling long and will be going to the gym once the dark nights are here to work on my leg strength, as I feel mine are weak as pish at the moment....anyway, ignore me, carry on you two :D
    Most people who can walk up stairs have some abilty to cycle already. Base strength is already plentiful,it's the cardiovascular ability to sustain it that counts.

    The gym simply will not help you as much as actually riding your bike will.

    The point of my questions was to establish whether you have any real experience of doing squats, or you are just echoing what other people have said. The fact that you dismissed my questions as irrelevant probably means that you don't know.

    I have had knee ligament damage in the past, therefore squats are essential for preventing injury, not really the same injury as a little bruise, so details of your leg injury is relevant for understanding the benefits.

    You keep banging on about CV work (very general term) do you not realise that increasing the rep range will train your 'CV system', as well as training your core, something most would agree to be beneficial.

    Dismissing squats as 'bollocks' is ignorant, particularly as you don't appear to know anything about them. I suggest you research about muscle fibre recruitment, training the nervous system and injury prevention routines. Next you will be telling me swimmers don't weight train, they just swim...

    Back to the OP, I would do all the research you can, I am a firm believer in squats, box jumps and lunges as well as upper body and core work, all these exercises can be done without access to a gym. I believe these have their place in cycling.

    People will tell you otherwise but try it and see what works for you.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    white91 wrote:
    The point of my questions was to establish whether you have any real experience of doing squats, or you are just echoing what other people have said. The fact that you dismissed my questions as irrelevant probably means that you don't know.
    You don't need to establish if I have any experience in doing squats. They are totally irrelevant to the topic.
    I have had knee ligament damage in the past, therefore squats are essential for preventing injury, not really the same injury as a little bruise, so details of your leg injury is relevant for understanding the benefits.
    Essential for you maybe. You don't need to know what my leg injury was, it is irrelevant to you,to the topic and to squatting.
    You keep banging on about CV work (very general term) do you not realise that increasing the rep range will train your 'CV system', as well as training your core, something most would agree to be beneficial.
    Increasing your ability to sustain power output is more beneficial than squatting. Squats do not achieve that - amazingly cycling does.
    Dismissing squats as 'bollocks' is ignorant, particularly as you don't appear to know anything about them. I suggest you research about muscle fibre recruitment, training the nervous system and injury prevention routines. Next you will be telling me swimmers don't weight train, they just swim...
    You don't actually appear to know much about anything yourself.
    Back to the OP, I would do all the research you can, I am a firm believer in squats, box jumps and lunges as well as upper body and core work, all these exercises can be done without access to a gym. I believe these have their place in cycling.
    Cycling has it's place in cycling.
    People will tell you otherwise but try it and see what works for you.
    Or try cycling to get better at cycling. I know that might sound amazingly complicated, but it's true.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    RandG wrote:
    6.1 and you think you might be over weight ?? WTF !

    I'm 5.9 and 95kg's ffs and don't particularly think I'm over weight.

    That does not mean you are not though ...does it. :wink:

    I am 5'10 and 82kg and I can tell you that I am certainly not as light as I should...and certainly too heavy to be really good at climbing.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • Bustacapp
    Bustacapp Posts: 971
    Lifelong powerlifter/bodybuilder here. I weigh 120kg. I squat every week maxing out at 200kg(ATG).

    I have only been riding for 2 weeks, and there is a hill near me (Shaley Brow, 14%) and twice I have tried to conquer it, and twice I have failed. The reason I have failed is not because of lack of strength in the legs, but more because of the feeling as though my lungs were about to explode. Hauling 120kg uphill with no cardiovascular ability is going to run into difficulties no matter how strong your legs are. I did get further on my second attempt though. What I have noticed is that squat acquired power in the legs really help on the flats when sprinting for lights etc.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Surely, very simplistically, most physical exercise is likely to improve your cycling. However, it may do less good for your cycling than actually cycling.

    So, probably doing squats will benefit your cycling - but not as much as cycling does. So, if you are a gym bunny anyway, then you can enjoy the thought of the secondary benefit that your workouts will give to your cycling. However, going to the gym specifically to improve your cycling would be a poor decision - you'd be better off going out on your bike.

    There you go - everyone should be mostly happy now!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    So what about this then?
    So Wiggins went back to the gym this winter and did a strength and conditioning programme building the muscles in his core that cycling can't reach, to the depth he needed.

    If Mr Wiggins needs the gym then rest assured us mere mortals would benefit from it too ...




    Ok - no mention of squats or squits - perhaps the next enhancement will be auto igniting flatulence? That should get rid of the wheel suckers ;)
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,305
    Slowbike wrote:
    If Mr Wiggins needs the gym then rest assured us mere mortals would benefit from it too ...
    When someone on this forum has done as much training on the bike as Bradley Wiggins, and if they've still got time to spare, then maybe some gym work might have some benefit. But it won't turn you into Bradley Wiggins by itself.
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  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Slowbike wrote:
    So what about this then?
    So Wiggins went back to the gym this winter and did a strength and conditioning programme building the muscles in his core that cycling can't reach, to the depth he needed.

    If Mr Wiggins needs the gym then rest assured us mere mortals would benefit from it too ...
    You left out the part specifically on his rehab post 2011 TDF crash,in which strength training was a pretty vital part of his recovery. It was also covered in the documentary on him 6 weeks or so ago (and what a hornets nest that stirred up)

    But then of course
    He also did specific bike training,
    Says it all really.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    If Mr Wiggins needs the gym then rest assured us mere mortals would benefit from it too ...
    When someone on this forum has done as much training on the bike as Bradley Wiggins, and if they've still got time to spare, then maybe some gym work might have some benefit. But it won't turn you into Bradley Wiggins by itself.
    Surely a mixture of training is best?
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    So what about this then?
    So Wiggins went back to the gym this winter and did a strength and conditioning programme building the muscles in his core that cycling can't reach, to the depth he needed.

    If Mr Wiggins needs the gym then rest assured us mere mortals would benefit from it too ...
    You left out the part specifically on his rehab post 2011 TDF crash,in which strength training was a pretty vital part of his recovery. It was also covered in the documentary on him 6 weeks or so ago (and what a hornets nest that stirred up)
    Of course I only quoted what I wanted to ..
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    But then of course
    He also did specific bike training,
    Says it all really.
    Well duh! I never said he just did gym training did I ...

    If I had the time and money I'd love to be able to ride at pro levels (ride - not compete) - and to achieve that I'd need a fair amount of gym work and a load more on-the-bike training ... but I hate the gym (hence I don't belong to one) so it's not really going to be much of a concern!
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Slowbike wrote:
    Of course I only quoted what I wanted to ..
    To purposely try and make some argument out of it. GLNT
    If I had the time and money I'd love to be able to ride at pro levels (ride - not compete) - and to achieve that I'd need a fair amount of gym work and a load more on-the-bike training ... but I hate the gym (hence I don't belong to one) so it's not really going to be much of a concern!
    Why would you need gym work? Perhaps (oh this again) riding a bike would benefit more?
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,305
    Slowbike wrote:
    Surely a mixture of training is best?
    Only if you've got the time, and you can be sure that the other activities are a better use of your time than being on the bike. If doing training on the bike is the most beneficial training (which appears to be the case in the vast majority of cases in practice) then being on the bike, doing specific training, is the best way to use your time.
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  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Why would you need gym work? Perhaps (oh this again) riding a bike would benefit more?


    Hey - can I link to an article at Livestrong ... ? Or is that source now disgraced? ;)
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Slowbike wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Why would you need gym work? Perhaps (oh this again) riding a bike would benefit more?


    Hey - can I link to an article at Livestrong ... ? Or is that source now disgraced? ;)
    Pharmstrong was never credible in the first place. The link has nothing to do with cycling either :)
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Why would you need gym work? Perhaps (oh this again) riding a bike would benefit more?


    Hey - can I link to an article at Livestrong ... ? Or is that source now disgraced? ;)
    Pharmstrong was never credible in the first place. The link has nothing to do with cycling either :)
    I know ... but you're supposed to bite ... ;)
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    Slowbike wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    Why would you need gym work? Perhaps (oh this again) riding a bike would benefit more?


    Hey - can I link to an article at Livestrong ... ? Or is that source now disgraced? ;)
    Pharmstrong was never credible in the first place. The link has nothing to do with cycling either :)
    I know ... but you're supposed to bite ... ;)
    :lol:
  • springtide9
    springtide9 Posts: 1,731
    I assume someone mentioned 'weight training' as a way of gaining weight in order to free fall down hills faster?

    Back to the topic - I haven't seen one reply yet that talks about cycling specific squats which is pretty unusual. Yes I think squats would really benefit a cyclist, but you need to do 'cycling specific squats'.

    'Cycling specific squats'. they are like normal squats, but simulate cycling.

    So there are squats that represent grinding a BIG gear for a 1 min sprint, with an 'equivalent' bike cadence of 30 rpm.
    So as a 30rpm bike cadence involves two leg pushes per revolution, you need to double your 'squat speed' to 60 squats/min.

    You can also do 'ultra sprint bike squats', to simulate sprinting in the drops where you archive maximum power on the bike, which is typically at 120 rpm, but only for 10 to 20 secs. So again, you need to be squatting at double rate, so 240 squats / min, so aim to 40 squats in 10 secs, or 80 squats in 20 secs.

    I hope this is helpful. Any questions, please ask.
    Simon
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    So if the best squats are those that simulate cycling, why wouldn't you just go out and ride. :P
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • springtide9
    springtide9 Posts: 1,731
    Grill wrote:
    So if the best squats are those that simulate cycling, why wouldn't you just go out and ride. :P

    Now lets not be negative about my training guide before you tried them.

    Give my squats a try and let me know you you get on. The most effective are the 'ultra sprint bike squats', but you have to do them right.... so I suggest you get someone to take a video and share so that I can make sure you are doing them right - and that offer is for anyone interested in squatting for cycling.
    Simon
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    springtide9 wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    So if the best squats are those that simulate cycling, why wouldn't you just go out and ride. :P

    Now lets not be negative about my training guide before you tried them.

    Give my squats a try and let me know you you get on. The most effective are the 'ultra sprint bike squats', but you have to do them right.... so I suggest you get someone to take a video and share so that I can make sure you are doing them right - and that offer is for anyone interested in squatting for cycling.

    I think I'll just stick to my 1,000+ miles on the road a month (already at 500+ this month). Seems better. :mrgreen:
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg

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