Vaughters confesses for others

2

Comments

  • rebs
    rebs Posts: 891
    The Sky/Garmin approaches are both interesting and I would say both server a purpose at the moment.

    Garmins problem maybe that eventually they will have to draw a line and go down Sky's route. They cant do that because of the history of Vaughters and several riders who have become clean.

    It's easy to understand Sky's approuch especially as they are very much still the new kids on the block. It has a chance to blow up in there face with Barry, Yates and dare I say Rogers to name a afew. But long term if this does happen they will no doubt be out out the door double time. Sky have a much longer term view with eyes on the new riders.

    Garmin still trying to give purpose to those that did wrong. Think its good that both teams are able to do this. Wish more teams were like this... *cough* Saxo/Moviestar. I am unsure what to think of teams like Leegy and Katusha. Katusha seem similar to Sky then most.

    More teams do have to address this issue sooner rather then later.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    yeah, but perhaps this is all with the benefit of hindsight as things are playing out.
    I think you're right, this is with the benefit of hindsight. It's not something I'd really considered until I was reading JV's comments.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,383
    No team is going to be able to put a positive spin on one of their riders being suspended for a doping violation, no matter what their recruitment policy.

    The problem I'm having with a team that tries to project itself as clean recruiting riders coming back from a doping ban is that the spot that rider takes on the team potentially denies a clean rider a ride. EG Dekker and Rasmussen in for 2012 with Lloyd and Hammond out.

    It's all very well giving people second chances but you have to accept that this potentially stops a young, clean rider from getting a first chance.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    rebs wrote:
    The Sky/Garmin approaches are both interesting and I would say both server a purpose at the moment.

    Garmins problem maybe that eventually they will have to draw a line and go down Sky's route. They cant do that because of the history of Vaughters and several riders who have become clean.

    It's easy to understand Sky's approuch especially as they are very much still the new kids on the block. It has a chance to blow up in there face with Barry, Yates and dare I say Rogers to name a afew. But long term if this does happen they will no doubt be out out the door double time. Sky have a much longer term view with eyes on the new riders.

    Garmin still trying to give purpose to those that did wrong. Think its good that both teams are able to do this. Wish more teams were like this... *cough* Saxo/Moviestar. I am unsure what to think of teams like Leegy and Katusha. Katusha seem similar to Sky then most.

    More teams do have to address this issue sooner rather then later.


    That would be Katusha, former team of Galimzyanov, he of the 'I doped on my own, no one helped me, love My Mum' confessional posting... :wink:
  • MrTapir
    MrTapir Posts: 1,206
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Don't worry about me...I am one of the ones who prefer to err on the side that the sport is clean. I would easily expect 80%+ to be clean.

    I do think Garmin is a clean team...read the comments better and it shows that they were doping before. I thought Tom D was all Garmin - looked and he was in Dirty Disco. In fact he has been racing for 10years! So much for having an amazing aerobic capacity...

    A top 10 in his first Tour (with Garmin, incidentally) would point to that...

    I thought his point was more that Danielson was a rider who would improve his results more through being better supported mentally than pumped full of PEDs, which was his former set up's default response.

    That was exactly his point: as he said giving TD drugs was like putting a bigger engine in a car with a flat tyre. It makes it go faster but you could just fix the flat tyre (which is analogy for TD's 'weak mental state').

    Thats also why he hired Millar and not Jaksche. He knew Millar was still good when he was clean, but couldnt be sure Jaksche would do well sans-juice. Also he thought he was a big gossip.

    Whats all this about a new Suisse team?
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    IAM innit. New Pro-Conti team next season. Suisse financial money-bags behind it. Similar intent as with Gerry Ryan funding GreenEdge till they got other sponsorship.
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    r0bh wrote:
    No team is going to be able to put a positive spin on one of their riders being suspended for a doping violation, no matter what their recruitment policy.
    That's absolutely true. I'm talking about revelations coming out about a rider having doped in the past. For Garmin they can say that's fine, but they've been clean the entire time they've been with us, and that's all we've ever asked of our riders. For Sky it's a total catastrophe and makes them look like hypocrites.
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!
    I’m not going to rip Jonathan again for this. He is full of shit. Completely full of shit. I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

    (from @dimspace)

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    iainf72 wrote:
    THe timing of this one

    http://michaelbarry.ca/2012/09/thank-you/

    is also interesting, if you recall what Flandis said

    The timing is probably becuase he's riding in Canada for the last time this weekend
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!
    I’m not going to rip Jonathan again for this. He is full of shoot. Completely full of shoot. I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

    (from @dimspace)
    Was just about to post the same. Him no happy!
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!
    I’m not going to rip Jonathan again for this. He is full of shoot. Completely full of shoot. I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

    (from @dimspace)

    Without wanting to sound like a Lance Believer, is there any evidence for any of this apart from Tom Danielson beating the guy a lot.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!
    I’m not going to rip Jonathan again for this. He is full of shoot. Completely full of shoot. I’m going to rip Tom Danielson. Here’s my personal observations and history of Tom Danielson, with a few jabs at Jonathan during the rant, probably.

    (from @dimspace)

    Without wanting to sound like a Lance Believer, is there any evidence for any of this apart from Tom Danielson beating the guy a lot.

    Dunno...but he sure is an angry man with a keyboard!

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,383
    "I finally get the Vaughters damage control plan. He is going to methodically, pre-release information, before it is dropped like a bomb from a B-52, hoping to help negate the bad press and astonishment from the eventual fallout of the Lance deal.

    And I hate it. He can make up all the schemes and reasons for what he does as the team director for Garmin, but it is all smoke and mirrors for self preservation of himself and his riders."

    Hard to argue with that, can't help but think Vaughters gets too much of a free ride at times.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    He talks to internet forum people, even the crazycrazy.gifones, so he's always likely to get a good ride here.
    _
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    That is true. And Cyclingnews and Velonation and the like will continue to practically fawn over and hero-worship him, and hold him up as the yardstick for every other Pro Tour manager/owner.

    I do think that Vaughters does genuinely work for a clean(er) sport - but there are defnitely factors of self-interest mixed in here. Just have to accept that.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    there are defnitely factors of self-interest mixed in here. t.

    There is in everything.
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    That is true. And Cyclingnews and Velonation and the like will continue to practically fawn over and hero-worship him, and hold him up as the yardstick for every other Pro Tour manager/owner.

    I do think that Vaughters does genuinely work for a clean(er) sport - but there are defnitely factors of self-interest mixed in here. Just have to accept that.

    Who isn't self interested? Especially in a company they have a stake in personally
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    You also have to remember with the whole Hamilton/Vaughters/Armstrong thing is that they're all American, so the American outlets have a particular affinity and relationship with them.
    _
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    It does look like the toilet has finally become unblocked doesn't it?

    I guess the real advantage in all of this is that there is so much sh1t coming out at the moment that one man's confession one day is quickly overtaken by another's the next.

    I'm starting to feel sorry for the victims of all of this. With LA I didn't have that because his wins probably denied other dopers but the further down the squads and teams you go you start to come across guys in a Kimmage-sque way who were let go because they couldn't cut it (i.e were not doping and not getting the results). I don't really know who they were but some peoples lives and destiny's were unfairly changed.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    You're right, they'll be a lot more Steve Tilford-like rages to come - and they'll all be highly warranted with their targets having no option but to suck it up
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!

    Well I now get
    Error establishing a database connection

    Somebody pulled it then ? :lol:
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    andy_wrx wrote:
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Just read this fantastic rant about Tom Danielson and Vaughters:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21510

    Warning! Contains the thoughts of one very pissed off (overlooked) rider!

    Well I now get
    Error establishing a database connection

    Somebody pulled it then ? :lol:
    Link still working for me.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    Also on last nights timeline:
    Jeezus... Now it seems I need to have a talk with Johnny Weltz about just letting this crap end and to stop BSing people..

    https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/243498183773257729

    Weltz was named in Hamilton's book and denied the allegations yesterday.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    You know, I dont know why Vaughters doesnt just go the whole hog (pun unintentional) and set up his own TV show in the style of The Osbournes, and show us all of the action as it occurs
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,550
    Vaughters interview with Sporten.dk where he fleshes out his position on Weltz

    In Danish
    http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/weltz-che ... are-johnny

    Google translate
    http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... are-johnny
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,181
    Graeme_S wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    No team is going to be able to put a positive spin on one of their riders being suspended for a doping violation, no matter what their recruitment policy.
    That's absolutely true. I'm talking about revelations coming out about a rider having doped in the past. For Garmin they can say that's fine, but they've been clean the entire time they've been with us, and that's all we've ever asked of our riders. For Sky it's a total catastrophe and makes them look like hypocrites.

    Not necessarily, it would all depend on how they handle anyone who subsequently proves to have a doping past. They have taken the approach that they have asked riders if they were ever involved and chose to take their word as the truth. Therefore, if they are subesquently implicated Sky need to sack them for lying - if they do that they would avoid looking hypocritical to me. The problem would arise only if they said "OK, but it's all in the past so we'll keep you" as they didn't take that Garmin style stance in the first place.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Judging from Vaughters and Hamilton, it seems doping can really f*ck you up.

    Tyler's gone all depressed and weird (remember his final positive test? it was tragic) and Vaughters can't help but try and unleash the doping beast within him to try and get some approval. I mean, I know these guys are unbalanced to get to the top anyway, but it must take its toll psychologically and emotionally.
    _
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,314
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Judging from Vaughters and Hamilton, it seems doping can really f*ck you up.

    Tyler's gone all depressed and weird (remember his final positive test? it was tragic) and Vaughters can't help but try and unleash the doping beast within him to try and get some approval. I mean, I know these guys are unbalanced to get to the top anyway, but it must take its toll psychologically and emotionally.

    Ahem... half way down
    viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12876879&start=20
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Here's a morning after the rant rant from the same guy and a friend:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21549
    You don’t get to fuck everyone over in your sport, capitalize off of people who don’t know or don’t care what you did to your sport, then go be part of a charity to “make it all ok again”.

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    ratsbeyfus wrote:
    Here's a morning after the rant rant from the same guy and a friend:

    http://stevetilford.com/?p=21549
    That guy seems to have a rather over-inflated opinion of his own ability. He seems to think that Danielson couldn't possibly beat him when was in his 40s. So he expects us to believe that a rider with several Grand Tour top tens (even if they were doped) was, in his younger years, incapable of beating a middle aged US domestic pro clean? EPO is good, but it's not that good.
    Twitter: @RichN95

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