Organic Food

phy2sll2

There was an Economist article several years ago which estimated that if we wanted to feed the whole world using organic farming methods, we would have to remove something like 2/3 of the world's remaining rainforests.

It also looked at fairtrade and the effect that it has on communities in developing countries, specifically encouraging overproduction (and therefore, waste) and distorting competition.

If anyone can find it, I'd love to reread.

rick_chasey

phy2sll2 wrote:

There was an Economist article several years ago which estimated that if we wanted to feed the whole world using organic farming methods, we would have to remove something like 2/3 of the world's remaining rainforests.

It also looked at fairtrade and the effect that it has on communities in developing countries, specifically encouraging overproduction (and therefore, waste) and distorting competition.

If anyone can find it, I'd love to reread.

http://www.economist.com/topics/organic-food

http://www.economist.com/debate/overview/172

Take your pick.

Headhuunter

rhext wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason

Funny, I thought that anyone who couldn't tell the difference must be a smoker. I'm not, although I am an enthusiastic amateur cook who enjoys good quality food. But I'm also one who's also well aware of the power of the placebo effect and its tendency to skew results of taste tests along the lines of 'I paid more for it, it must taste better'.

If you want to save yourself a bit of money, do a proper blind tasting of your carrots (get someone else to prepare them for you obviously, and try a few times) and see if you can really tell the difference. When I tried it, I couldn't: that's why we decided to stop buying organic carrots....well, that and reading a report which pointed out that pesticide levels in organic carrots are typically higher than in non-organic ones, they just happen to be 'approved by the soil association' pesticides. And if you've tried to grow carrots at home without using pesticides (as I do), you'll understand exactly why.......

I've never tried a blind test but I can swear to you that some organic fruit and veg definitely tastes better. Not all, just some. I particularly remember carrots having a more intense flavour... Wasn't just me, the other half agreed. Not sure why you can't taste it....

rjsterry

Headhuunter wrote:

rhext wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason

Funny, I thought that anyone who couldn't tell the difference must be a smoker. I'm not, although I am an enthusiastic amateur cook who enjoys good quality food. But I'm also one who's also well aware of the power of the placebo effect and its tendency to skew results of taste tests along the lines of 'I paid more for it, it must taste better'.

If you want to save yourself a bit of money, do a proper blind tasting of your carrots (get someone else to prepare them for you obviously, and try a few times) and see if you can really tell the difference. When I tried it, I couldn't: that's why we decided to stop buying organic carrots....well, that and reading a report which pointed out that pesticide levels in organic carrots are typically higher than in non-organic ones, they just happen to be 'approved by the soil association' pesticides. And if you've tried to grow carrots at home without using pesticides (as I do), you'll understand exactly why.......

I've never tried a blind test but I can swear to you that some organic fruit and veg definitely tastes better. Not all, just some. I particularly remember carrots having a more intense flavour... Wasn't just me, the other half agreed. Not sure why you can't taste it....

The organic carrot may well taste better than the non-organic carrot, but that could just be that the organic carrot is from Farm A, and the non-organic from Farm B, and the carrots from Farm A would taste better anyway. The non-organic carrots might have been in cold storage for longer - any number of reasons besides which fertilisers and pesticides were used.

rolf_f

Headhuunter wrote:

Personally I often fund the opposite annoys me, food, especially fruit, in the supermarket is picked way too early and isn't ripe, nectarines and peaches are rock hard, bananas are green etc... I don't want to have to wait 2 Weeks for my fruit to ripen before I can eat it

I was in co-op once after nectarines. All the punnets were full of cannonball like nectarines that probably still wouldn't be ripe over a year later. But then I found one - lovely, soft, juicy nectarines. Took them to the till and they said they wouldn't sell me them as they were out of date :roll:

I did win though as I managed to get them to scan one of the boxes of cannonballs instead but it's a bit insane.

bompington

Headhuunter wrote:

rhext wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason

Funny, I thought that anyone who couldn't tell the difference must be a smoker. I'm not, although I am an enthusiastic amateur cook who enjoys good quality food. But I'm also one who's also well aware of the power of the placebo effect and its tendency to skew results of taste tests along the lines of 'I paid more for it, it must taste better'.

If you want to save yourself a bit of money, do a proper blind tasting of your carrots (get someone else to prepare them for you obviously, and try a few times) and see if you can really tell the difference. When I tried it, I couldn't: that's why we decided to stop buying organic carrots....well, that and reading a report which pointed out that pesticide levels in organic carrots are typically higher than in non-organic ones, they just happen to be 'approved by the soil association' pesticides. And if you've tried to grow carrots at home without using pesticides (as I do), you'll understand exactly why.......

I've never tried a blind test but I can swear to you that some organic fruit and veg definitely tastes better. Not all, just some. I particularly remember carrots having a more intense flavour... Wasn't just me, the other half agreed. Not sure why you can't taste it....

Not sure why these experts can't taste it either...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8340585/Organic-food-less-tasty-than-normal-watchdog-says.html
Unless, as mentioned by several posters who you are managing to completely ignore, it's all down to the placebo effect.

Headhuunter

bompington wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

rhext wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason

Funny, I thought that anyone who couldn't tell the difference must be a smoker. I'm not, although I am an enthusiastic amateur cook who enjoys good quality food. But I'm also one who's also well aware of the power of the placebo effect and its tendency to skew results of taste tests along the lines of 'I paid more for it, it must taste better'.

If you want to save yourself a bit of money, do a proper blind tasting of your carrots (get someone else to prepare them for you obviously, and try a few times) and see if you can really tell the difference. When I tried it, I couldn't: that's why we decided to stop buying organic carrots....well, that and reading a report which pointed out that pesticide levels in organic carrots are typically higher than in non-organic ones, they just happen to be 'approved by the soil association' pesticides. And if you've tried to grow carrots at home without using pesticides (as I do), you'll understand exactly why.......

I've never tried a blind test but I can swear to you that some organic fruit and veg definitely tastes better. Not all, just some. I particularly remember carrots having a more intense flavour... Wasn't just me, the other half agreed. Not sure why you can't taste it....

Not sure why these experts can't taste it either...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8340585/Organic-food-less-tasty-than-normal-watchdog-says.html
Unless, as mentioned by several posters who you are managing to completely ignore, it's all down to the placebo effect.

I wouldn't class Which? magazine testers as experts, they are usually a random selection of bods from the street, but I know that I could take a taste test, particularly re carrots... I'm afraid as far as I'm concerned there is a definite taste difference. As I said, not all foods taste different in their organic form. If I was reacting to the placebo effect, I would surely believe that most or all organic food tasted better...

rjsterry

I think a blind taste test needs to be arranged at the Morpeth...



...with DDD officiating.

Silly Commuter Carrot Tasting?

msmancunia

I had mates round for sunday lunch the bank holiday weekend and they did comment on the vegetables (they asked if I'd grown them as I now have a garden!). Could just be my cooking.....

I've not been getting the box long, but so far I've noticed tomatoes, potatoes, and very surprisingly, lettuce have all tasted better - or have at least tasted of something rather than just water. Can't tell the difference between green beans or onions so far though. The plums, peaches and nectarines I've had have all been ripe and really beautiful, so I've eaten them. I know it's not for everyone, but if it gets me eating loads of fruit and veg instead of throwing stuff away because it's bland or actually gone off before it's ripened, then that's good enough for me. there is very little more disappointing than taking a bite out of a satsuma or clementine and it's all dry inside - ugh.

woodnut

We get an organic box from Abel & Cole. I'm prepared to believe it MAY taste better due to being fresher than supermarket rubbish, rather than being organic, but it does taste better. Non-organic produce from markets generally tastes better than supermarket stuff also. As far as blind testing goes, I swear 90% of people massively overcook vegetables to the extent you could barely tell the difference between a potato and a carrot. But that's another story.

jonny_trousers

Not entirely relevant, but timely: I was instructed to clean out the veg drawer of our fridge last week as I had let a few items go a bit liquid. I found a supermarket lettuce in there that was six weeks old and it was as fresh as an irradiated daisy. Scary!

Headhuunter

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Not entirely relevant, but timely: I was instructed to clean out the veg drawer of our fridge last week as I had let a few items go a bit liquid. I found a supermarket lettuce in there that was six weeks old and it was as fresh as an irradiated daisy. Scary!

You'd let some things go liquid... bleurgh!

kieranb

phy2sll2 wrote:

There was an Economist article several years ago which estimated that if we wanted to feed the whole world using organic farming methods, we would have to remove something like 2/3 of the world's remaining rainforests.

It also looked at fairtrade and the effect that it has on communities in developing countries, specifically encouraging overproduction (and therefore, waste) and distorting competition.

If anyone can find it, I'd love to reread.

Well it seems that the economist readers came out in favour of fair trade. Personally I buy fair trade over organic and buy organic for hopefully less exposure of harmful pesticides to the farm workers (especially overseas, like in banana plantations) and environment. Not too pushed about the subjective benefits to taste. While 'organic' farming will also use pesticides I would be surprised if it was on the same level or worse than conventional methods.

jonomc4

davmaggs wrote:

I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

think you are wrong - this I can do by quoting from the page you linked to yourself:

In organic farming:

artificial chemical fertilisers are prohibited – instead organic farmers develop a healthy, fertile soil by growing and rotating a mixture of crops, adding organic matter such as compost or manure and using clover to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere

pesticides are severely restricted – instead organic farmers develop nutrient-rich soil to grow strong, healthy crops and encourage wildlife to help control pests and disease

animal welfare is at the heart of the system and a truly free-range life for farm animals is guaranteed

a diversity of crops and animals are raised on the farm and rotated around the farm over several seasons, including fallow periods. This mixed farming approach helps break cycles of pests and disease and builds fertility in the soil

the routine use of drugs, antibiotics and wormers is banned – instead the farmer will use preventative methods, like moving animals to fresh pasture and keeping smaller herd and flock sizes

genetically modified (GM) crops and ingredients are banned

For me it is the over use of antibiotics in meat farming that is truly worrying - plus the use of growth hormones (not in UK but other countries).

But organic from the UK is different say to organic from Portugal where the rules are a lot less strict.

Ben6899

We use farmers' markets and if we end up in Sainsbury's, then we buy the organic stuff.

Any meat simply HAS to be organic and free range. It's my opinion that if you can't afford to buy responsibly produced meat, then you should be a vegetarian.

alidaf

I used to buy organic alternatives whenever there was a choice. I tried online companies a few times but the produce came a long way (food miles). We have a lot of local farms that sell directly and I'll pick up a few things but I still insist on organic dairy products. I honestly believe they taste better, with the possible exception of Cravendale milk. I remember a programme a while back that analysed non-organic dairy milk and found an awful lot of dead white blood cells from infections as well as antibiotics and other nasties.

Fruit and veg wise, I'm more concerned about the selective breeding to produce goods that conform to our visual ideals rather than our taste buds, and in the process, reduce the nutritional value. Don't modern oranges have a fraction of the vitamin C of oranges from yesteryear? I read somewhere that carrots used to be purple and it was the Dutch that bred the more traditional orange variety, but again, the vitamins are far reduced. Grow your own heritage tomatoes and taste the difference. It is quite shocking.

davmaggs

jonomc4 wrote:

davmaggs wrote:

I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

think you are wrong - this I can do by quoting from the page you linked to yourself:

In organic farming:

artificial chemical fertilisers are prohibited – instead organic farmers develop a healthy, fertile soil by growing and rotating a mixture of crops, adding organic matter such as compost or manure and using clover to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere

pesticides are severely restricted – instead organic farmers develop nutrient-rich soil to grow strong, healthy crops and encourage wildlife to help control pests and disease

animal welfare is at the heart of the system and a truly free-range life for farm animals is guaranteed

a diversity of crops and animals are raised on the farm and rotated around the farm over several seasons, including fallow periods. This mixed farming approach helps break cycles of pests and disease and builds fertility in the soil

the routine use of drugs, antibiotics and wormers is banned – instead the farmer will use preventative methods, like moving animals to fresh pasture and keeping smaller herd and flock sizes

genetically modified (GM) crops and ingredients are banned

For me it is the over use of antibiotics in meat farming that is truly worrying - plus the use of growth hormones (not in UK but other countries).

But organic from the UK is different say to organic from Portugal where the rules are a lot less strict.

Actually I'm not wrong. There are two inputs into crops that would come under the chemical category

1) pesticides
2) fertilisers

The link clearly states that "pesticides are severely restricted", and not that they are banned. Arguably for the lay person worrying about eating chemicals, it is the pesticides that bother them the most.

The soil association lists the chemicals here:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=pesticides%20authorised%20by%20the%20soil%20association&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soilassociation.org%2FLinkClick.aspx%3Ffileticket%3DcY8kfP3Q%252BgA%253D%26tabid%3D388&ei=sMFZULDJH-fI0AWeyoCwCg&usg=AFQjCNGEaRXG68W9kUlL018VN6Qf228XIA

alidaf

Isn't copper chromate considered suitable for organic farming? I'm sure there are a few pesticides that are, despite being raw chemicals, rather than say, natural extracts. I've heard of some allotment holders using natural predators such as wasps, and even nematodes but I don't think they scale very well to farms.

OneForTheRoad

Seasonal and local is the best way to go.

Without pesticides the UK would lose approx 40% of its crop. As far as I can tell its the variety of crop used and the care with which it is grown which affects the taste. Fertilizers and pesticides are tasteless in the end product.

OneForTheRoad

Ben6899 wrote:

Any meat simply HAS to be organic and free range. It's my opinion that if you can't afford to buy responsibly produced meat, then you should be a vegetarian.

Free range yes, animals allowed to grow at a natural pace on a natural diet yes. Organic No. Many farmers put the welfare of their animals above the "organic" label. The banning of routine worming and use of other preventative drugs is daft. They may as well call it "Jehovah" instead of orgainc

rjsterry

OneForTheRoad wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Any meat simply HAS to be organic and free range. It's my opinion that if you can't afford to buy responsibly produced meat, then you should be a vegetarian.

Free range yes, animals allowed to grow at a natural pace on a natural diet yes. Organic No. Many farmers put the welfare of their animals above the "organic" label. The banning of routine worming and use of other preventative drugs is daft. They may as well call it "Jehovah" instead of orgainc

Amen. I wonder how many organic-only types also abstain from vaccinations and use of medicines themselves.

bompington

rjsterry wrote:

Amen. I wonder how many organic-only types also abstain from vaccinations and use of medicines themselves.

Quite a few, judging by the current whooping cough epidemic. I expect there's quite a strong correlation between Wakefield fans & organic fans.

First.Aspect

Headhuunter wrote:

I've never tried a blind test but I can swear to you that some organic fruit and veg definitely tastes better. Not all, just some. I particularly remember carrots having a more intense flavour... Wasn't just me, the other half agreed. Not sure why you can't taste it....

I think its because of the price. You know, like, "My god this chablis is good. No really, it doesn't taste like fermented bamboo, because it was £15."

I bet if they grew organic veg on the same scale, but killed all the little green insecty hoppy things with nerve agent, it would taste just the same.

You have to compare like with like, and supergiant water tomatoes grown under intense bullying during one of 16 growing seasons a year in a polytunnel near Seville are not the same as peanut sized flavour bomb tomatoes grown in masses of top quality pig poo in a moist part of Suffolk, no matter what they are sprayed with.

pastryboy

There are loads of varieties of carrot (and everything else for that matter), just because two look alike means nothing. Unless you know you're eating the same variety then you can't compare. That's before you get into freshness and growing conditions.

Stuff won't taste better because it's organic, it will taste better because the principles of organic mean that the soil is better, it's been grown more slowly, the farmer knows what varieties work well in their area, etc. Supermarket organic is rarely better than ordinary because it still has to be grown so intensively - you shouldn't really expect a flavour difference just because it says organic - it's still crap.

Stuff at farmers' markets isn't usually organic (certification costs a lot) but still tastes way better than anything from a shop due to the above factors.

Ben6899

rjsterry wrote:

OneForTheRoad wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Any meat simply HAS to be organic and free range. It's my opinion that if you can't afford to buy responsibly produced meat, then you should be a vegetarian.

Free range yes, animals allowed to grow at a natural pace on a natural diet yes. Organic No. Many farmers put the welfare of their animals above the "organic" label. The banning of routine worming and use of other preventative drugs is daft. They may as well call it "Jehovah" instead of orgainc

Amen. I wonder how many organic-only types also abstain from vaccinations and use of medicines themselves.

Look. I just want to eat meat that hasn't had growth hormone pumped into it, which has come from an animal that has been properly looked after in it's lifetime. "Organic" and "not being wormed" do not necessarily go hand in hand.

I'm still trying to make the connection between organic and Wakefield though - completely lost on that one!

rjsterry

Ben6899 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

OneForTheRoad wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Any meat simply HAS to be organic and free range. It's my opinion that if you can't afford to buy responsibly produced meat, then you should be a vegetarian.

Free range yes, animals allowed to grow at a natural pace on a natural diet yes. Organic No. Many farmers put the welfare of their animals above the "organic" label. The banning of routine worming and use of other preventative drugs is daft. They may as well call it "Jehovah" instead of orgainc

Amen. I wonder how many organic-only types also abstain from vaccinations and use of medicines themselves.

Look. I just want to eat meat that hasn't had growth hormone pumped into it, which has come from an animal that has been properly looked after in it's lifetime. "Organic" and "not being wormed" do not necessarily go hand in hand.

I'm still trying to make the connection between organic and Wakefield though - completely lost on that one!

British and free-range should do you fine then. Don't get the Wakefield reference either.