Organic Food

2

Comments

  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I thought there was enough food to go around?

    It's just it's not particularly evenly distributed.

    That's possibly true, also the fact that the Western diet is so heavy on meat which is hugely inefficient to produce. The amount of land, natural resources used and waste produced to create steak for burgers etc for us in the West is huge. Same with fish farming, I read somewhere that farmed salmon is largely fed on meal produced from anchovies, so basically fishermen head out to catch anchovies, they are shipped or flown to a fish food factory, ground up and then shipped or flown to be fed to salmon in a farm and something like every 2kg of anchovies produces 1kg of farmed salmon. Food production would be hugely more efficient if we just ate the anchovies ad cut out the "middle man" (fish). If we ate a predominantly veggie diet it would be so much easier to feed everyone...
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  • jonginge
    jonginge Posts: 5,945
    Placebo effect is a wonderful thing.

    Organic has just become another way for supermarkets to screw suppliers.
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    I flatly refuse to buy anything organic, although I do buy free range chicken.

    Same. I tend not to buy stuff that has been sprayed with pestercides or injected with artificial somethings. That said, the Organic garlic morrisons is more garlicy than the non Organic stuff.

    On chickens: Free range isn't Organic. I prefer Chickens (I only buy British sourced) that have been allowed to 'perch and play' or corn fed (given the skin a yellow tint) if I'm feeling flush. But Organic? No, that's just overpriced.

    So you aim not to eat anything high in pesticides but your refuse to buy organic? Sounds like a complete contradiction!
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  • rhext
    rhext Posts: 1,639
    I'd never shell out extra for Organic food just because it was Organic, although I could be tempted to shell out extra for animals reared using the higher welfare standards which sometimes accompany an Organic label. I'm prepared to believe that a chicken fed on corn is going to taste better than a chicken fed on fishmeal, but that's nothing to do with whether the corn was organically grown or not.

    As for the rest of it, it seems to me to be on massive pseudo-scientific marketing con:

    1) Organic food tastes better?

    Blind tasting after blind tasting shows that people can't tell the difference.

    2) Organic food is grown without additives?

    Nonsense, it's just that the soil association has decided, largely arbitrarily in my view, that some additives are acceptable and some are not. So if you need to use pesticides, it'll have to be pyrethrins: the fact that they're of limited effect these days and therefore you need to use an awful lot more of them (and hence pesticide residues on organic food are often higher than non-organic as a result) appears to be balanced by an assumption that because pyrethrins occur naturally they're somehow safer. Strychnine occurs naturally too!

    3) Organic food is somehow 'safer'.

    Well, there's absolutely no evidence of this. And related to point 2: if an organic farmer wishes to add nitrate fertiliser, then he/she may choose to use manure. A non-organic farmer is able to use exactly the same chemical but without manure's many and varied impurities. Like E.Coli, for example. Not sure why an organic carrot fertilised using nitrate plus E.Coli is safer than one fertilised using nitrate alone....

    4) The organic movement is the small farmer's opportunity to survive in a world dominated by global super-companies.

    Most organic food is produced by the same global super-companies as all the rest. They're not averse to the use of the odd pseudo-scientific marketing themselves, and does anyone really still think that they've not jumped in on the act?
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Headhuunter wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    I flatly refuse to buy anything organic, although I do buy free range chicken.

    Same. I tend not to buy stuff that has been sprayed with pestercides or injected with artificial somethings. That said, the Organic garlic morrisons is more garlicy than the non Organic stuff.

    On chickens: Free range isn't Organic. I prefer Chickens (I only buy British sourced) that have been allowed to 'perch and play' or corn fed (given the skin a yellow tint) if I'm feeling flush. But Organic? No, that's just overpriced.

    So you aim not to eat anything high in pesticides but your refuse to buy organic? Sounds like a complete contradiction!
    Wait what? I always thought there was a happy medium... Like my corn fed perch and play chicken. Not quite battery, not quite Organic.
    Food Chain number = 4

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  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    dhope wrote:
    Nope, fad

    You don't believe it has any benefits at all? Clearly surveys have shown that it has no added nutritional benefit (although the Soil Association claims the studies have been flawed) but you don't believe there are any benefits at all? Absolutely zilch?

    The soil association have a vested interest in all this and are bound to complain.

    Organic is nothing more than a very, very clever marketing ploy. This health thing comes up every few years, there have been numerous studies and so far not a single literature review has uncovered any empirically validated evidence that eating organic is healthier. I flatly refuse to buy anything organic, although I do buy free range chicken.

    Why are you so sure that there is no health benefit? I had a friend with cancer and doctors actually advised her to eat organic so they clearly believed there was some kind of benefit. Why do you buy organic chicken if there is no benefit?

    Because there is no empirically validated evidence of any health benefit. Zip, nada, none. Drs advise all sorts of things to cancer patients alongside actual medical treatment - including homeopathy, often on the basis that it won't do any harm and may help the patient's mental state.

    Finally I didn't say I bought Organic chicken, I said free range. Free range and organic are not the same thing.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    A neighbour of mine when I lived in Wales produced organic lamb. If ever a meat was by definition organic it is surely lamb but his lamb were not given antibiotics which seemed to mean that he had a lot of quite sickly and sorry looking sheep on his farm.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    rhext wrote:
    I'd never shell out extra for Organic food just because it was Organic, although I could be tempted to shell out extra for animals reared using the higher welfare standards which sometimes accompany an Organic label. I'm prepared to believe that a chicken fed on corn is going to taste better than a chicken fed on fishmeal, but that's nothing to do with whether the corn was organically grown or not.

    As for the rest of it, it seems to me to be on massive pseudo-scientific marketing con:

    1) Organic food tastes better?

    Blind tasting after blind tasting shows that people can't tell the difference.

    2) Organic food is grown without additives?

    Nonsense, it's just that the soil association has decided, largely arbitrarily in my view, that some additives are acceptable and some are not. So if you need to use pesticides, it'll have to be pyrethrins: the fact that they're of limited effect these days and therefore you need to use an awful lot more of them (and hence pesticide residues on organic food are often higher than non-organic as a result) appears to be balanced by an assumption that because pyrethrins occur naturally they're somehow safer. Strychnine occurs naturally too!

    3) Organic food is somehow 'safer'.

    Well, there's absolutely no evidence of this. And related to point 2: if an organic farmer wishes to add nitrate fertiliser, then he/she may choose to use manure. A non-organic farmer is able to use exactly the same chemical but without manure's many and varied impurities. Like E.Coli, for example. Not sure why an organic carrot fertilised using nitrate plus E.Coli is safer than one fertilised using nitrate alone....

    4) The organic movement is the small farmer's opportunity to survive in a world dominated by global super-companies.

    Most organic food is produced by the same global super-companies as all the rest. They're not averse to the use of the odd pseudo-scientific marketing themselves, and does anyone really still think that they've not jumped in on the act?


    Some organic foods most definitely do taste better. As someone who specifically bought organic food for a number of years, I can tell you categorically that some things, like carrots for example do taste better...

    What about the benefit to the environment of not drenching fields in chemical herbicides and pesticides?
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    I flatly refuse to buy anything organic, although I do buy free range chicken.

    Same. I tend not to buy stuff that has been sprayed with pestercides or injected with artificial somethings. That said, the Organic garlic morrisons is more garlicy than the non Organic stuff.

    On chickens: Free range isn't Organic. I prefer Chickens (I only buy British sourced) that have been allowed to 'perch and play' or corn fed (given the skin a yellow tint) if I'm feeling flush. But Organic? No, that's just overpriced.

    So you aim not to eat anything high in pesticides but your refuse to buy organic? Sounds like a complete contradiction!
    Wait what? I always thought there was a happy medium... Like my corn fed perch and play chicken. Not quite battery, not quite Organic.

    I don't think free range guarantees any lower exposure to chemical foodstuffs, antibiotics etc, it just means the animals have a bit ore space to move around, although not a lot, I don't think "free range" is defined in law as such, so farmers can use it pretty much arbitrarily...
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  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Headhuunter wrote:

    I don't think free range guarantees any lower exposure to chemical foodstuffs, antibiotics etc, it just means the animals have a bit ore space to move around, although not a lot, I don't think "free range" is defined in law as such, so farmers can use it pretty much arbitrarily...
    Fair point that, I must say.
    Food Chain number = 4

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  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Headhuunter wrote:

    Some organic foods most definitely do taste better. As someone who specifically bought organic food for a number of years, I can tell you categorically that some things, like carrots for example do taste better...

    What about the benefit to the environment of not drenching fields in chemical herbicides and pesticides?

    Fields are not "drenched" in chemicals.

    Speaking as someone who hails from farming stock (Dad is an Arable farmer). It is not in a Farmer's interest to 'poison' their land, it is their livelihood after all. Modern Pesticides/Herbicides (in the UK at least) are clever & highly regulated compounds. We're not exactly spraying DDT these days. The simple fact is that we have to use them, not to do so is unsustainable - in the same way that it would be impossible for every chicken in the UK to be free range.

    I don't object to organic food in principle. As someone else has pointed out, it's been a real boon to the small acreage farmer. I do object to way it is marketed though.

    By the way, if people have any beef with food production then they really should be looking at the Supermarkets who on the whole treat UK and foreign food producers with utter contempt.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    Headhuunter wrote:

    I don't think free range guarantees any lower exposure to chemical foodstuffs, antibiotics etc, it just means the animals have a bit ore space to move around, although not a lot, I don't think "free range" is defined in law as such, so farmers can use it pretty much arbitrarily...

    There are regs in place for Hen eggs:

    The EU egg marketing legislation stipulates that for eggs to be termed 'free range', hens must have continuous daytime access to runs which are mainly covered with vegetation and a maximum stocking density of 2,500 birds per hectare. The hen house conditions for free range hens must comply with the regulations for birds kept in barn systems, with a maximum stocking density of 9 hens per square metre of useable area.

    Hens must be provided with next boxes. Adequate perches, providing 15 centimetres of perch per hen, must also be provided. Litter must be provided, accounting for one-third of the ground surface - this is used for scratching and dust bathing.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    While I'm on my hobby horse - what really f*cks me off is people who buy say Organic Strawberries from Kenya, rather than non-organic UK Strawberries. Wonder which of those causes more environmental damage...
  • msmancunia
    msmancunia Posts: 1,415
    Il Principe wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:

    Some organic foods most definitely do taste better. As someone who specifically bought organic food for a number of years, I can tell you categorically that some things, like carrots for example do taste better...

    What about the benefit to the environment of not drenching fields in chemical herbicides and pesticides?

    Fields are not "drenched" in chemicals.

    Speaking as someone who hails from farming stock (Dad is an Arable farmer). It is not in a Farmer's interest to 'poison' their land, it is their livelihood after all. Modern Pesticides/Herbicides (in the UK at least) are clever & highly regulated compounds. We're not exactly spraying DDT these days. The simple fact is that we have to use them, not to do so is unsustainable - in the same way that it would be impossible for every chicken in the UK to be free range.

    I don't object to organic food in principle. As someone else has pointed out, it's been a real boon to the small acreage farmer. I do object to way it is marketed though.

    By the way, if people have any beef with food production then they really should be looking at the Supermarkets who on the whole treat UK and foreign food producers with utter contempt.

    This book (together with a friend who's married to a beef and dairy farmer) stopped me shopping for food in supermarkets full stop.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shopped-Shockin ... =1-1-spell
    I only go in there now for things like loo roll and detergent, and never ever in Tescos.
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  • rhext
    rhext Posts: 1,639
    Headhuunter wrote:

    Some organic foods most definitely do taste better. As someone who specifically bought organic food for a number of years, I can tell you categorically that some things, like carrots for example do taste better...

    What about the benefit to the environment of not drenching fields in chemical herbicides and pesticides?

    I'm quite happy to concede that some organic foods do taste better. Not because of their 'organic' status, however, but because some farmers put a lot more effort into producing a high-quality product than others, and such farmers tend to go to the trouble of obtaining organic certification. But it's quite possible to obtain equivalent quality non-organic food if you look for it, and the fact that food carries an organic label is no guarantee that it's higher quality.

    As for the 'subjective' stuff is concerned, I can tell you just as categorically that organic carrots do not taste any better than the other kind, having bought and tried both. If you believe that they do, and you're prepared to pay the premium, then that's fine, but the question was whether I'd pay the premium..

    And you didn't read my post: at least as far as pesticides are concerned, an organic farmer will usually using more than a non-organic one, largely because the organic chemicals are nowhere near as effective. And contrary to popular belief, farmers do not just throw chemicals at the crops just because they're evil exploiters of the countryside. Chemicals are one of the biggest input costs in a relatively low-margin business, so they spend an awful lot of time making sure that they use them as efficiently as possible.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    rhext wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:

    Some organic foods most definitely do taste better. As someone who specifically bought organic food for a number of years, I can tell you categorically that some things, like carrots for example do taste better...

    What about the benefit to the environment of not drenching fields in chemical herbicides and pesticides?

    I'm quite happy to concede that some organic foods do taste better. Not because of their 'organic' status, however, but because some farmers put a lot more effort into producing a high-quality product than others, and such farmers tend to go to the trouble of obtaining organic certification. But it's quite possible to obtain equivalent quality non-organic food if you look for it, and the fact that food carries an organic label is no guarantee that it's higher quality.

    As for the 'subjective' stuff is concerned, I can tell you just as categorically that organic carrots do not taste any better than the other kind, having bought and tried both. If you believe that they do, and you're prepared to pay the premium, then that's fine, but the question was whether I'd pay the premium..

    And you didn't read my post: at least as far as pesticides are concerned, an organic farmer will usually using more than a non-organic one, largely because the organic chemicals are nowhere near as effective. And contrary to popular belief, farmers do not just throw chemicals at the crops just because they're evil exploiters of the countryside. Chemicals are one of the biggest input costs in a relatively low-margin business, so they spend an awful lot of time making sure that they use them as efficiently as possible.

    Well IME certain foods and certainly organic carrots do taste better. I would go on a taste test... Friends of mine agree on this and people who have posted on this thread agree.... Do you smoke? Perhaps your taste buds have been affected!

    Re pesticides, OK, perhaps "drench" was a sensationalist word to use, but there is a considerable level of run off which affects the environment around farms. Waterways for example become heavily polluted with fertiliser run off...
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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Il Principe wrote:
    While I'm on my hobby horse - what really f*cks me off is people who buy say Organic Strawberries from Kenya, rather than non-organic UK Strawberries. Wonder which of those causes more environmental damage...

    Yep, I mentioned that before...
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  • davmaggs
    davmaggs Posts: 1,008
    Headhuunter wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    While I'm on my hobby horse - what really f*cks me off is people who buy say Organic Strawberries from Kenya, rather than non-organic UK Strawberries. Wonder which of those causes more environmental damage...

    Yep, I mentioned that before...

    Distance isn't necessarily an indicator of environmental impact.

    For example; Kenya is really hot and sunny so perhaps they get away with not needing to have or heat greenhouses in the off season.
  • mattwood
    mattwood Posts: 148
    davmaggs wrote:
    I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

    http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

    This! +10000000000000000

    I think you'd also be surprised at how much the chemicals that are allowed to be used are regulated and how often some of the most common drop off the approved lists.

    As someone who makes a living developing and testing pesticides and the like for use on food and non-food crops I can but assure you that Organic is nothing more than a marketing fad.

    Equally, I would put it to you that the reason organic food tastes better is simply because you expect it to. Its the placebo effect in full swing - I would bet any of the hardcore organic food-buyers would not be able to tell in a full double-blind test.

    Having said that, each to their own and all that!
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Try to buy as much as possible from Farmers markets - some Organic, some not. It's more about general approach than anything. I've not been in a Supermarket for three and a half years and hopefully never will again. I can buy a free range chicken leg for about £1 at the farmers market and one bite will have more taste than anything sold in a supermarket. Mostly, they sell junk in an exploitative way. I have nothing to do with them. But I have no bother with those who do (eg my mother who rarely manages to last a day without at least one trip to Sainsburys!) :lol:
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    mattwood wrote:
    davmaggs wrote:
    I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

    http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

    This! +10000000000000000

    I think you'd also be surprised at how much the chemicals that are allowed to be used are regulated and how often some of the most common drop off the approved lists.

    As someone who makes a living developing and testing pesticides and the like for use on food and non-food crops I can but assure you that Organic is nothing more than a marketing fad.

    Equally, I would put it to you that the reason organic food tastes better is simply because you expect it to. Its the placebo effect in full swing - I would bet any of the hardcore organic food-buyers would not be able to tell in a full double-blind test.

    Having said that, each to their own and all that!
    Clearly you haven't tasted organic food properly... It most certainly taste better
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  • PedalPedant
    PedalPedant Posts: 185
    I'm afraid this is rather more my experience of Farmers' Markets

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtn1a-7TnOE*

    PP

    * Armstrong and Miller sketch, possibly NSFW
    People that make generalisations are all morons.

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  • davet2
    davet2 Posts: 44
    I just try and buy as much locally from small shops as possible, veg is usually cheaper, meat is far superior (the butcher is the farmer), the fish is fresh and the bread is warm. I'm very fortunate I have this within pedalling distance, and its not as convenient as Tesco, but it really is so much better. I don't know if its inorganic, and frankly I dont really care as long as it tastes good.
  • mattwood
    mattwood Posts: 148
    Headhuunter wrote:
    mattwood wrote:
    davmaggs wrote:
    I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

    http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

    This! +10000000000000000

    I think you'd also be surprised at how much the chemicals that are allowed to be used are regulated and how often some of the most common drop off the approved lists.

    As someone who makes a living developing and testing pesticides and the like for use on food and non-food crops I can but assure you that Organic is nothing more than a marketing fad.

    Equally, I would put it to you that the reason organic food tastes better is simply because you expect it to. Its the placebo effect in full swing - I would bet any of the hardcore organic food-buyers would not be able to tell in a full double-blind test.

    Having said that, each to their own and all that!
    Clearly you haven't tasted organic food properly... It most certainly taste better

    Well, I grow my own veg and what I can't grow I usually get loose from the markets as it's cheaper. I won't argue that supermarket/intensively farmed veg tastes a bit off, but I think that has more to do with their source stock/growth media as opposed to whether or not it's 'organic'.

    FYI - most pesticides used in the EU presently can be applied to 'organic' food crops as they contain a naturally occurring (organic) active ingredient.
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    Buy local and or buy as sustainable/fair as possible. Not so fussed about 'organic'.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    mattwood wrote:
    Headhuunter wrote:
    mattwood wrote:
    davmaggs wrote:
    I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe that organic means chemical free at all. It is a controlled set of pesticides that can be used:

    http://www.soilassociation.org/whatisor ... nicfarming

    This! +10000000000000000

    I think you'd also be surprised at how much the chemicals that are allowed to be used are regulated and how often some of the most common drop off the approved lists.

    As someone who makes a living developing and testing pesticides and the like for use on food and non-food crops I can but assure you that Organic is nothing more than a marketing fad.

    Equally, I would put it to you that the reason organic food tastes better is simply because you expect it to. Its the placebo effect in full swing - I would bet any of the hardcore organic food-buyers would not be able to tell in a full double-blind test.

    Having said that, each to their own and all that!
    Clearly you haven't tasted organic food properly... It most certainly taste better

    Well, I grow my own veg and what I can't grow I usually get loose from the markets as it's cheaper. I won't argue that supermarket/intensively farmed veg tastes a bit off, but I think that has more to do with their source stock/growth media as opposed to whether or not it's 'organic'.

    FYI - most pesticides used in the EU presently can be applied to 'organic' food crops as they contain a naturally occurring (organic) active ingredient.

    May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason
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  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,768
    I seem to be on a bit of an agree with IP thing recently. This:
    Il Principe wrote:
    While I'm on my hobby horse - what really f*cks me off is people who buy say Organic Strawberries from Kenya, rather than non-organic UK Strawberries. Wonder which of those causes more environmental damage...
    and this:
    Il Principe wrote:
    Drs advise all sorts of things to cancer patients alongside actual medical treatment - including homeopathy, often on the basis that it won't do any harm and may help the patient's mental state.
    Had an interesting chat with my oncologist about hypnotherapy. As a scientist she knew it made no sense, but she had patients that didn't need any medication to combat the side effects of chemo and just used hypnotherapy. She said if you were that kind of person it worked wonders, but only for a few people. I was offered free hypnotherapy by someone I know. It kind of helped me relax when I was stressing about things, and that helped. But I couldn't have got through without my sack of pills.
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  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    On the subject of farmers markets. I buy the fruit, whichever he is shouting about. Its all plump and colourful. By the time I get home you can see it turning, the next day it looks like rot.

    This I dare say comes across as dishonest, they could tell you the fruit is turning, and it forces people to buy the sprayed to preserve stuff in the supermarkets.
    Food Chain number = 4

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  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    On the subject of farmers markets. I buy the fruit, whichever he is shouting about. Its all plump and colourful. By the time I get home you can see it turning, the next day it looks like rot.

    This I dare say comes across as dishonest, they could tell you the fruit is turning, and it forces people to buy the sprayed to preserve stuff in the supermarkets.
    Personally I often fund the opposite annoys me, food, especially fruit, in the supermarket is picked way too early and isn't ripe, nectarines and peaches are rock hard, bananas are green etc... I don't want to have to wait 2 Weeks for my fruit to ripen before I can eat it
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  • rhext
    rhext Posts: 1,639
    Headhuunter wrote:
    May be but for whatever reason, some organic foods certainly taste better to me anyway... Whether it's because they're organic or for some other reason

    Funny, I thought that anyone who couldn't tell the difference must be a smoker. I'm not, although I am an enthusiastic amateur cook who enjoys good quality food. But I'm also one who's also well aware of the power of the placebo effect and its tendency to skew results of taste tests along the lines of 'I paid more for it, it must taste better'.

    If you want to save yourself a bit of money, do a proper blind tasting of your carrots (get someone else to prepare them for you obviously, and try a few times) and see if you can really tell the difference. When I tried it, I couldn't: that's why we decided to stop buying organic carrots....well, that and reading a report which pointed out that pesticide levels in organic carrots are typically higher than in non-organic ones, they just happen to be 'approved by the soil association' pesticides. And if you've tried to grow carrots at home without using pesticides (as I do), you'll understand exactly why.......

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