Contador (warning: fan here)

TheBigBean

dsoutar wrote:

I detest cheaters, but if there's one group of people I detest far more it's lying cheaters.

Surely, all the riders who haven't been caught fall into this camp, so on the balance of probabilities you should hate most professional cyclists (past and present).

Turfle

LeicesterLad wrote:

All very well

but the title of this thread suggests its for fans, so really wasn't any need for the haters to turn yet another thread into a boring Contador slagging fest. :roll:

If you see 'Contador' in a title, and you don't like him then why bother posting in it? It seems to me the Anti-Contador folk love to moan about him at every oportunity on the pro-contador threads or indead the threads that just want to discuss current racing and not somebodies past demeaners and make hilarious beef jokes.

Many on here seem to feel this constant need to hate on certain people all of the time - like they can't bare to just let a conversation go without some quip about doping. Unless it concerns Sky of course, and then any mention of doping, being crap, being boring, having sh*t attitudes etc etc is strictly prohibited.

You trampled all over your own point at the end there.

DeadCalm

LeicesterLad wrote:

I do get that, but just as equally nobody can really prove that Contador has ridden juiced for the last decade either in which case it has to come down to results. I simply can't agree that given the evidence anybody can really say Contador is not a better stage racer than Froome or Wiggins and just because Sky have the whole 'anti-doping' thing going doesn't mean riders won't or can't make choices for themselves behind closed doors. The argument for both is all speculation based and not evidence based other than 2010 positive, anything before that, or post ban is just people saying 'Contador was deffinitely juiced' without evidence to back it up.

If he'd confessed and told us he'd only cheated that one time then we'd have something to go on. But he didn't so we don't know when he was cheating or how often. That casts doubt on all his other previous performances so we simply don't know how good he really is. I'd like to think this is his third clean GT in a row (ignoring backdated ban), one of which he won with ease so he's obviously pretty good but we don't really have enough data yet to know just how good he actually is.

bipedal

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

dsoutar

TheBigBean wrote:

dsoutar wrote:

I detest cheaters, but if there's one group of people I detest far more it's lying cheaters.

Surely, all the riders who haven't been caught fall into this camp, so on the balance of probabilities you should hate most professional cyclists (past and present).

That list was far from exclusive - that's just the people who attract the most opprobrium. I think Roche is running the risk of being in that category.

LeicesterLad

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

:roll: Good input. If we are talking personality free zones then Sky would be a good place to look. Also take into account Contador talks spanish so any translation isn't really a true representative of what he is saying and the humour may get lost and I think he does OK. Better than a Cavendish 'erm, erm, yeah, my team, I need to thank my team, they were great'.

Turfle

LeicesterLad wrote:

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

:roll: Good input. If we are talking personality free zones then Sky would be a good place to look. Also take into account Contador talks spanish so any translation isn't really a true representative of what he is saying and the humour may get lost and I think he does OK. Better than a Cavendish 'erm, erm, yeah, my team, I need to thank my team, they were great'.

see:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Many on here seem to feel this constant need to hate on certain people all of the time - like they can't bare to just let a conversation go without some quip about doping. Unless it concerns Sky of course, and then any mention of doping, being crap, being boring, having sh*t attitudes etc etc is strictly prohibited.

LeicesterLad

Turfle wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

:roll: Good input. If we are talking personality free zones then Sky would be a good place to look. Also take into account Contador talks spanish so any translation isn't really a true representative of what he is saying and the humour may get lost and I think he does OK. Better than a Cavendish 'erm, erm, yeah, my team, I need to thank my team, they were great'.

see:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Many on here seem to feel this constant need to hate on certain people all of the time - like they can't bare to just let a conversation go without some quip about doping. Unless it concerns Sky of course, and then any mention of doping, being crap, being boring, having sh*t attitudes etc etc is strictly prohibited.

I know, I really shouldn't stoop to the level of others on here.

dougzz

LeicesterLad wrote:

I do get that, but just as equally nobody can really prove that Contador has ridden juiced for the last decade either in which case it has to come down to results. I simply can't agree that given the evidence anybody can really say Contador is not a better stage racer than Froome or Wiggins and just because Sky have the whole 'anti-doping' thing going doesn't mean riders won't or can't make choices for themselves behind closed doors. The argument for both is all speculation based and not evidence based other than 2010 positive, anything before that, or post ban is just people saying 'Contador was deffinitely juiced' without evidence to back it up.

Again I think this is wrong. What you're saying here is that the only time Bertie doped he was caught. We all know what rubbish that is. Bernhard Kohl ridiculed the testing when he was finally caught, how many of the more sophisticated dopers have actually tested positive for anything. Take away things like Puerto and the other investigative busts and you're left with very little. Contador has the better GT record than anyone else around now, but it's tainted.

LeicesterLad

dougzz wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

I do get that, but just as equally nobody can really prove that Contador has ridden juiced for the last decade either in which case it has to come down to results. I simply can't agree that given the evidence anybody can really say Contador is not a better stage racer than Froome or Wiggins and just because Sky have the whole 'anti-doping' thing going doesn't mean riders won't or can't make choices for themselves behind closed doors. The argument for both is all speculation based and not evidence based other than 2010 positive, anything before that, or post ban is just people saying 'Contador was deffinitely juiced' without evidence to back it up.

Again I think this is wrong. What you're saying here is that the only time Bertie doped he was caught. We all know what rubbish that is. Bernhard Kohl ridiculed the testing when he was finally caught, how many of the more sophisticated dopers have actually tested positive for anything. Take away things like Puerto and the other investigative busts and you're left with very little. Contador has the better GT record than anyone else around now, but it's tainted.

You are taking 'being caught' as the start/stop point of an offence and then speculating that if he's been caught once then he's been doing it forever. Theres plenty out their who are juiced but havn't been caught that we can speculate about, and that includes riders at Sky. The fact that somebody may have doped for the length of their career always exists, whether they are caught or not, but because somebody gets caught its free reign to right off the rest of their career.

Wasn't long ago that there were plenty on here willing to back the Schlecks to the Hilt, comments like 'at least the Schleck's havn't been done for doping like Contador' - not so much of that since Frank got busted.

Lichtblick

LeicesterLad wrote:

All very well

but the title of this thread suggests its for fans, so really wasn't any need for the haters to turn yet another thread into a boring Contador slagging fest. :roll:

If you see 'Contador' in a title, and you don't like him then why bother posting in it? It seems to me the Anti-Contador folk love to moan about him at every oportunity on the pro-contador threads or indead the threads that just want to discuss current racing and not somebodies past demeaners and make hilarious beef jokes.

Thanks LL.

lostboysaint

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

andrewjoseph

LeicesterLad wrote:

All very well

but the title of this thread suggests its for fans, so really wasn't any need for the haters to turn yet another thread into a boring Contador slagging fest. :roll:

...

So if it's got fan and contador in the title, only contador fans should read and post on it. is that right?

Blow me, I've been getting this internet thingy wrong for years! :twisted:

It's an open forum, people can post what they like, if you don't want your thread turning into less than you expect, don't start a thread. it happens with practically everything!

Lichtblick

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

Maybe they don't ask him interesting enough questions? Also, cyclists like footballers are not hired for their intellect, are they?

bompington

lostboysaint wrote:

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

I expect most would choose the neck

Lichtblick

lostboysaint wrote:

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

Who is the "you" in that question?

DeadCalm

bompington wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

I expect most would choose the neck

dougzz

@LL. That may all be true, but I was trying to argue the points at hand. I can say I like Vino and I like Andy Schleck. I know one of them has doped, and I'm pretty sure the other has too. That makes it hard to judge them as just as riders. All I was really saying is judging Bertie as a great GT rider is impossible, because his actions have made it so. If someone said Bertie lights up a race, attacks and is good to watch I think that's hard to argue against, although I'm sure some will. But if someone says he's a great GT rider, or the best GT rider of his generation I think you have to qualify that. I don't quite know the relevance of any of the Sky references here, other than wild mud slinging.

bipedal

Lichtblick wrote:

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

Maybe they don't ask him interesting enough questions? Also, cyclists like footballers are not hired for their intellect, are they?

He gets asked much the same questions as most other cyclists, and he's not alone in being boring and anodyne... but some cyclists do have engaging things to say (see Voigt, Millar etc.) and I personally tend to find these cyclists all the more interesting for it

Sorry if that offends the purists....

LeicesterLad

lostboysaint wrote:

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

I really don't think the two can be compared, there's far more dirt sticking on Armstrong that just mere internet speculation.

My feelings towards Armstrong are as much about his attitude and behaviour as anything else.

mfin

frenchfighter wrote:

ThomThom, don't waste your time responding to muffin man, although I'll let you make your own mind up.

Muffin man is not my name FrenchFlopper

mfin

bompington wrote:

Although strangely enough, there is also the possibility that people who "follow this sport for the racing" might actually care about riders cheating.

+1

dave_1

Bert is great to watch...the number of attacks he puts in..great TV. I do hope he has decided to stop cheating though. Pistolero Vs Froome dog is going to be a great duel these next 2 weeks

alwaystoohot

Discredited, shouldn't be riding. No shame.

mfin

bipedal wrote:

Off the bike Contador is such a bore - like Valverde his interviews are cliche-ridden and full of platitudes... the guy is a personality-free zone

I agree... (I reckon EBH comes across like this too)

ddraver

LeicesterLad wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

So where do you stand on LA then as he hasn't been caught?

I really don't think the two can be compared, there's far more dirt sticking on Armstrong that just mere internet speculation.

My feelings towards Armstrong are as much about his attitude and behaviour as anything else.

Sorry LL, but Contador has "mere internet Speculation" AND A POSITIVE DRUGS TEST AND SANCTION

As much as I don't like the guy, all Larry has is mere internet speculation (though hopefully not for much longer...)

They can very much be compared!

Complaining that people "keep bringing up steak jokes" is like the Catholic Church complaining that people always bring up the chlid abuse or Labour Supporters complaining that people keep bringing up the fact that they were in church during the crash. They keep bringing it up becase it's true, and its relevant!

mfin

ddraver wrote:

Complaining that people "keep bringing up steak jokes" is like the Catholic Church complaining that people always bring up the chlid abuse or Labour Supporters complaining that people keep bringing up the fact that they were in church during the crash. They keep bringing it up becase it's true, and its relevant!

Plus, to any Contador fan who doesnt like any steak jokes, im surprised you don't find them funny as ironically its Contador who made up the joke in the first place

mfin

I don't hate Contador, I just find him the most laughable of all the cheats.

I actually find it really odd how people idolise one rider or another, I don't idolise any of them, I just appreciate great riding, BUT I can't appreciate it the same when its done by dopers that's all.

I know people do idolise riders, but when it goes all the way to thinking how stylish they are off the bike, liking what they wear, whether they shave a certain way, it then seems all a bit on the mental side to me.

Always reminds me of this bit off Alan Partridge when he's stuck in the house of his greatest fan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l76u8Z5Ic2U&t=1m25s

Team4Luke

interesting to see Conty and Froomy both tactically holding back yesterday when they could both or either have easily gone for it.

Paul 8v

It's spoilt for me really, now he's been done for drugs every time he does put in a good performance the first thing that pops in to my head is that he must be on the sweeties, especially seeing him on stage 3 bombing off like that.