Union Flag/ St George Flag Design on Helemts

daviesee

There is only one Country in the World that would even contemplate having the discussion that this thread is going down - England.

All very interesting..................

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

As an ethnic minority living in the major city, I would argue that the Union Jack is associated with the BNP and other far right elements within this society. My perception is that because of the very British nature of not wanting to offend, instead of directly confront these notions, the issue has been largely avoided. This only strengthens the association of the Union jack and far right politics/fundmentalists, well in my mind at least. The flag itself is not a symbol of racism not in the same way the Swastika (once and still a symbol of luck) is (in the Western World).

St George's Cross I think is more associated with football as that is where it is used most. Sadly football has spent too many years hindered by louts and unsavory behaviour. I wouldn't associated that flag with far right groups.

HOWEVER, just because these symbols have been appropriated by negative aspects of society doesn't mean they should be avoided at all costs. Half the problem with this Country is that many are too quick to apologise for being who they are (British), their culture and/or spend too much time being preoccupied with what others think and not what their own actions represent - surrending the national identity, pride, culture.

[This is where I am now going to rant]

I can't help feel that this has lead to a lost generation. I can't help feel that a sense of national pride would have led to less people rioting. There are too many people who do not really know what was and is great about this Country and who are simply do not want to be proud of it. Why? There is real value to living here and people take it for granted. People should be proud to live here, people should appreciate it and value it. Has Mo Farrah's story not taught anyone anything? What? Do you think he would have had half the opportunities he has had had he not left Somalia?

People often take the Rick Chasey stance; turning their noses up to this Country, apologising for it, spending their time trying not to be associated with it. That in my mind does more damage to the culture and perception of this Country than the racists who claim to be proud of it. We know the latter are idiots but if your average (in terms of demographics) citizen is ashamed to be British, apologises for its culture then something must be fundamentally wrong. Sadly there is nothing wrong with Britain accept for the people who feel they should be ashamed of it when they have no real reason to.

More people should be more like Spen666.

Britian is great. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. "Rule motherfucking Britainia".

I think people look at a lot of the "bad things" that were done by or on behalf of Britain in the past and say, "how can you be proud of that?" This ignores the many "good things" that this country has achieved. I doubt there is a nation on Earth that can claim a blameless past. People can be proud of their country as a whole, while deploring some of the things it has done. Similarly, being proud of your own nation does not require you to denigrate other nations, as was demonstrated by the crowds at the Olympics. At the men's road race there were a lot of Union FLags, but plenty of other nations too, and all competitors were cheered on.

cornerblock

daviesee wrote:

There is only one Country in the World that would even contemplate having the discussion that this thread is going down - England.

All very interesting..................

+1 Spot on.

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

...
More people should be more like Spen666.

.....

Can we end the debate now

rjsterry

daviesee wrote:

There is only one Country in the World that would even contemplate having the discussion that this thread is going down - England.

All very interesting..................

What about the Spanish autonomous regions - should Catalans fly the Catalan flag or the Spanish flag?



In fact any state which comprises a union or federation of sub-states or autonomous regions would have this issue. BTW, Spain was formed from the union of the crowns of Aragon and Castille, so not that different from England & Scotland.

rick_chasey

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

spen666

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Its people with attitudes like yours that make this association stay.

Denigrating anyone who flys our country's national flag(s) has the effect of putting many decent people off flying their flag, leaving it flown by extremists. Thus reinforcing the stereo types.


As an insteresting aside, I live in a predominantely Asian area and it is the Asian families and shop keepers who have been most prominent in flying the Union flag over the last few months from their houses and shops.

daviesee

rjsterry wrote:

In fact any state which comprises a union or federation of sub-states or autonomous regions would have this issue. BTW, Spain was formed from the union of the crowns of Aragon and Castille, so not that different from England & Scotland.

Exactly. Catalan first, Spanish second and proud of both.
Scottish first, British second and proud of both.

Analogy - I am proud of my grand children but that doesn't mean that I have to hate all other children. It really is that simple.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Northern League in Italy? I've also heard there's some pretty unsavoury elements in Flemish nationalism.

rick_chasey

spen666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Its people with attitudes like yours that make this association stay.

Denigrating anyone who flys our country's national flag(s) has the effect of putting many decent people off flying their flag, leaving it flown by extremists. Thus reinforcing the stereo types.


As an insteresting aside, I live in a predominantely Asian area and it is the Asian families and shop keepers who have been most prominent in flying the Union flag over the last few months from their houses and shops.

Ja that's the point I made ealier on.

There is already a reasonably respectable flag for people who are interested in that - union jack. Sure the BNP tried to pick it up like the st.georges cross, but it hasn't worked.

No-one's thinking these guys are far right:

.

Ginjafro

Flags, like any other design on helmets can look very nice but not for me, each to their own.

For me the "Cross of St George", the flag of England has been hijacked by the far right. Perhaps there is an argument to reclaim it but seems unlikely now.

The so called "Union Flag" of the United Kingdom, not Great Britain, England or whatever is inclusive of England, Scotland and Ireland (not part of the UK) and has forgotten to include Wales (part of the UK), so pretty damn confusing.

The issue of British/UK/English flags seems schizophrenic and subject to whowever trying to score points or hijack it for their own dubious reasons (and I am not making any specific references to any thread posters). Maybe it is time to reinvent or evolve our British Isles "national" flag to me more inclusive of all our citizens?

spen666

All this descending into allegations that people who fly their flag are racist simply because I wanted to get someone from abroad a cycling helemt with the union flag or st george cross on it?

Its nothing to do with racism, in fact it was to assist a foreigner that I made the initial request

So how does that fit in with you who find racism at every mention of the Union Flag



Who is going to tell Mo Farrah, Jessica Ennis, Brad wiggins etc they are all racists?

daviesee

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Northern League in Italy? I've also heard there's some pretty unsavoury elements in Flemish nationalism.

Yes, they do exist. But when you see an Italian flag do you immediately think of racism, or even facism? Likewise a Flemish flag?

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

Half the problem with this Country is that many are too quick to apologise for being who they are (British), their culture and/or spend too much time being preoccupied with what others think and not what their own actions represent - surrending the national identity, pride, culture.

Eh? Who is apologising for being British here?

DonDaddyD wrote:

I can't help feel that this has lead to a lost generation. I can't help feel that a sense of national pride would have led to less people rioting.

National pride had nothing to do with it. It was disenfranchisment and a lack of personal investment in the local community that was the cause of the rioting. And a bunch of people just being pr*cks of course.

DonDaddyD wrote:

There are too many people who do not really know what was and is great about this Country and who are simply do not want to be proud of it. Why? There is real value to living here and people take it for granted. People should be proud to live here, people should appreciate it and value it. Has Mo Farrah's story not taught anyone anything? What? Do you think he would have had half the opportunities he has had had he not left Somalia?

One of the things I really like about British society is actually how reflective it is. Being self-critical is probably what defines British culture amongst others in the west. Mohammed Farrah's story has taught me that with hard "grafting" you can achieve great things. The role that Britain as a nation has had in giving him the opportunity to live up to his potential has nothing to do with flags or national pride (and the un-meritocratic trends this encourages). It has been about justice, fair play and social responsibility. Thats what I think of when I consider what Britain means to me.

If Britain was a less reflective country, with a greater sense of "nationalism", then I doubt it would have been as welcoming a place as it has been for Somali refugees who go on to achieve great things for their adopted country.

Daviesee is right, this is the only country in the world that would contemplate having a discussion like this. And I think thats brilliant.

DonDaddyD

rjsterry wrote:

I doubt there is a nation on Earth that can claim a blameless past.

Jamaica.

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I doubt there is a nation on Earth that can claim a blameless past.

Jamaica.

Jamaica has managed to squeeze a lot of homophobia into 50 years

dhope

spen666 wrote:

Who is going to tell Mo Farrah, Jessica Ennis, Brad wiggins etc they are all racists?

Don't be silly, racists don't follow Cycling or Track & Field. It's flag waving football fans I don't want to be associated with.

rjsterry

daviesee wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Northern League in Italy? I've also heard there's some pretty unsavoury elements in Flemish nationalism.

Yes, they do exist. But when you see an Italian flag do you immediately think of racism, or even facism? Likewise a Flemish flag?

We don't, but an African immigrant in northern Italy might. I bet non-white French feel similarly about FN waving the Tricolore. Similarly, I doubt other nationalities make the St George's flag - EDL/BNP link as readily as British people do.

Paul E

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I doubt there is a nation on Earth that can claim a blameless past.

Jamaica.

Jamaica has managed to squeeze a lot of homophobia into 50 years

Also quite a few perfomers are banned from performing here because of homophobic and racist songs.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

daviesee wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It's rare that a regional flag becomes identifiable with particularly racist attidues though.

I mean, there's a lot of Flanders chat about the flag - a lot - but it's not in relation to being associated with intolerant hooliganism.

Northern League in Italy? I've also heard there's some pretty unsavoury elements in Flemish nationalism.

Yes, they do exist. But when you see an Italian flag do you immediately think of racism, or even facism? Likewise a Flemish flag?

We don't, but an African immigrant in northern Italy might. I bet non-white French feel similarly about FN waving the Tricolore. Similarly, I doubt other nationalities make the St George's flag - EDL/BNP link as readily as British people do.

They do in the Netherlands and Belgium

Though they've been exposed to it first hand

cornerblock

spen666 wrote:

All this descending into allegations that people who fly their flag are racist simply because I wanted to get someone from abroad a cycling helemt with the union flag or st george cross on it?

Its nothing to do with racism, in fact it was to assist a foreigner that I made the initial request

So how does that fit in with you who find racism at every mention of the Union Flag



Who is going to tell Mo Farrah, Jessica Ennis, Brad wiggins etc they are all racists?

It's all getting out of hand, just send them one of these.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Half the problem with this Country is that many are too quick to apologise for being who they are (British), their culture and/or spend too much time being preoccupied with what others think and not what their own actions represent - surrending the national identity, pride, culture.

Eh? Who is apologising for being British here?

DonDaddyD wrote:

I can't help feel that this has lead to a lost generation. I can't help feel that a sense of national pride would have led to less people rioting.

National pride had nothing to do with it. It was disenfranchisment and a lack of personal investment in the local community that was the cause of the rioting. And a bunch of people just being pr*cks of course.

DonDaddyD wrote:

There are too many people who do not really know what was and is great about this Country and who are simply do not want to be proud of it. Why? There is real value to living here and people take it for granted. People should be proud to live here, people should appreciate it and value it. Has Mo Farrah's story not taught anyone anything? What? Do you think he would have had half the opportunities he has had had he not left Somalia?

One of the things I really like about British society is actually how reflective it is. Being self-critical is probably what defines British culture amongst others in the west. Mohammed Farrah's story has taught me that with hard "grafting" you can achieve great things. The role that Britain as a nation has had in giving him the opportunity to live up to his potential has nothing to do with flags or national pride (and the un-meritocratic trends this encourages). It has been about justice, fair play and social responsibility. Thats what I think of when I consider what Britain means to me.

If Britain was a less reflective country, with a greater sense of "nationalism", then I doubt it would have been as welcoming a place as it has been for Somali refugees who go on to achieve great things for their adopted country.

Daviesee is right, this is the only country in the world that would contemplate having a discussion like this. And I think thats brilliant.

I dunno, you seem pretty proud of being British based on the above. The flag is a symbol of the country, so why is waving the flag not saying that you are proud of British justice, fair play and social responsibility?

daviesee

rjsterry wrote:

We don't, but an African immigrant in northern Italy might. I bet non-white French feel similarly about FN waving the Tricolore.

Any examples, or just guesswork?

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, you seem pretty proud of being British based on the above. The flag is a symbol of the country, so why is waving the flag not saying that you are proud of British justice, fair play and social responsibility?

S'all about context though.

For an event - sporting, royal occasions etc, it's cool and the gang.

Elsewhere it's a political statement.

rjsterry

daviesee wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

We don't, but an African immigrant in northern Italy might. I bet non-white French feel similarly about FN waving the Tricolore.

Any examples, or just guesswork?

The latter obviously.

daviesee

.....and still no one has picked up on the Title spelling error.*
Are all the pedants on holiday?





*Just trying to change the subject, or at least get it back OT.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I dunno, you seem pretty proud of being British based on the above. The flag is a symbol of the country, so why is waving the flag not saying that you are proud of British justice, fair play and social responsibility?

S'all about context though.

For an event - sporting, royal occasions etc, it's cool and the gang.

Elsewhere it's a political statement.

It's always a political statement, but that statement can be and often is positive.

Paul E

I don't have a helmet with it on but I do have a cap from Prendas that has the flag on both sides and is red white and blue, what anyone thinks about it if they see me in it is upto them

Ginjafro

daviesee wrote:

.....and still no one has picked up on the Title spelling error.*
Are all the pedants on holiday?





*Just trying to change the subject, or at least get it back OT.

I did consider pointing out that Spen was reinforcing his image as a helmet but did not want to get drawn into a spelling/grammar "nazi" debate. :twisted: His spelling is shite though.

notsoblue

rjsterry wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

The role that Britain as a nation has had in giving him the opportunity to live up to his potential has nothing to do with flags or national pride (and the un-meritocratic trends this encourages). It has been about justice, fair play and social responsibility. Thats what I think of when I consider what Britain means to me.

I dunno, you seem pretty proud of being British based on the above. The flag is a symbol of the country, so why is waving the flag not saying that you are proud of British justice, fair play and social responsibility?

Thats a good question. I *am* pretty proud of being British, but I personally think its a bit vulgar to stand around in big crowds waving union jacks being very pleased with being British. I feel that its out of national character to be honest. The best of British is understatement, ironic humour and humanistic compassion. Singing national anthems and waving flags are (to me) things that people do to drown out cognitive dissonance. Nationalism is the last resort of desperate demagogues. I don't feel that we as a country particularly need constantly reaffirm how "Great" we are by plastering the union jack on everything. I think our qualities are pretty obvious without us having to shout about it. I don't begrudge the en masse flagwaving of others, but its not for me.

I think theres nothing wrong with what Spen666's wants to do though. Sending a bit of British spirit abroad. I kinda do the same thing here. I'm currently wearing Trinbago flag cufflinks.