Eating during rides and weight loss

wishitwasallflat

One of my main aims if to lose weight - I have lost about 2-3 stone so far (over a couple of years) and need to lose the same again. I can now do 50 miles rides (avge speed 15.5mph) but my avge ride is more like 30 miles (16.0 mph or therabouts) - I try to do 100 miles a week. So far I have never eaten anything when riding - my logic is if I don't eat my body will have to burn fat - BUT - having been involved in an interesting thread on Begginers

viewtopic.php?f=40020&t=12870769

it seems this may be wrong.

I find it really hard to accept that if I did eat while I was out riding I would burn more fat so this seems the place to post the question is that true and if it is how much should you eat on say a 30 mile or 50 miles ride at those speeds to maximise weight loss? Apologies if that's overly simplistic but I don't really get how eating more can make you lose weight!

danowat

Depends how hard the ride is, general rule of thumb, you have enough "onboard" for 90mins without eating.

IME, fasted morning rides at low(er) intensity (endurance range) for 90mins are very good at shifting weight.

Your body will always burn fat, however, the ratio is burn's fat to muscle glycogen is dependent on the intensity.

styxd

You dont need to eat anything for a 30mile ride. Do it as hard as you can.

amaferanga

styxd wrote:

You dont need to eat anything for a 30mile ride. Do it as hard as you can.

That depends. If you had lunch at say 12pm and then set off on a 30 mile ride at 5pm then you'd probably struggle. Provided you've eaten within 2 or 3 hours of the ride then I agree, you shouldn't need food for a ride of up to about 2 hours.

CyclingObsession

I was in your boat gradually put on more miles but didnt have the energy to sustain myself, I made up my own isotonic drinks, miwadi and salt mixed with water it is low in calories and it will give u that bit of instant energy you need. I found helpful. try and aim your meals to before you go out and ride, for example a ride at weekend eat your breakfeast say 500 calories do 50 mile ride come home and then it's time for your lunch, depending on how long it takes u.

SBezza

styxd wrote:

You dont need to eat anything for a 30mile ride. Do it as hard as you can.

+1 to this

If you eat a normal diet you can quite easily do 30 miles quite hard without worrying about on the bike food. I would imagine if you have never eaten food on the bike you will be burning fat quite well. I regularly do 2 hour hard rides with not taking any food whilst riding, and just using water so it is perfectly possible. I wouldn't eat on a 50-60 mile ride either, though for me that would only be 2.5 to 3 hours of riding anyhow.

It might be worth taking something along with you just in case there is a need at some point, but honestly if you eat a decent diet and as mentioned above have a snack about 2 hours before going out there is no real need.

wishitwasallflat

Many thanks to all for the helpful replies

Kingy 123

Dont go on a diet just change the way you eat because when you come off said diet you will just put the weight back on.

Just keep putting in extra miles to build base fitness with a good range of food and hopefully everything will start working.

It works because three years ago i became very ill and couldnt ride at all and put alot of weight on,just dont rush it and enjoy the riding.

wishitwasallflat

Cheers Kingy good advice

bahzob

When you exercise your body uses a mix of fat and carbohydrate for fuel. The proportion used varies with the intensity of the exercise. At very low intensities its just fat, at high intensity its carb. In between its a mix the more intense the exercise the more carb gets burned.

The body only has limited stores of carbohydrate, enough for 1-2 hours of non-stop hard riding (one objective of training is to increase this amount).

So on shorter rides it shouldn't really be necessary to eat anything at all. Once you approach 2 hours though it gets more complicated. If you just want to keep moving then you still don't need to eat anything (especially if you are not riding non-stop hard), you will be able to continue just using fat. However you will go considerably slower and feel pretty rough.

If you eat some carbs then you will be able to go faster. Going faster means you will burn more calories per minute and get fitter. Getting fitter also means you will be more capable of going faster in future.

This explains the paradox that if you want to lose weight there will be occasions when eating results in burning more calories than not eating since you will be able to ride faster both during the ride and on future occasions.

The amount you need to eat varies with individual. It's not a huge amount, a bit of trial and error can be used to determine the best trade off.

SBezza

bahzob wrote:

The body only has limited stores of carbohydrate, enough for 1-2 hours of non-stop hard riding (one objective of training is to increase this amount).

You can store about 2,000 calories in glycogen in the liver and muscles, this is quite a bit more than 2 hours worth if riding at a moderate pace. If you go very hard, like threshold level, then you will obviously burn through it quicker, but should still be able to do near on two hours (this is will obviously be based on how much power you as an individual produce), though fatigue would have taken over by this point and you would slow down through fatigue more than anything else.

It does get better as you get fitter, but the amount you can store doesn't really change a great deal IMO, though this does happen to a certain extent, I think it more of how the body utilisies it stores of energy. A fitter person would probably use less glycogen and more fat at a given intensity.

Obviously if you do training that wipes out a fair amount of glycogen, it is going to take up to 48 hours to replenish it fully, and if you go out training hard again before it is fully replenished, it will get depleted even further and you will not be able to go as hard for as long. This is where weight loss and frequent longish high intensity training don't always mix and you have to be very careful about calorie intake and making sure you replenish glycogen to a reasonable level and still have a calorie deficit, it can be a very fine balancing act.

wishitwasallflat

bahzob wrote:

So on shorter rides it shouldn't really be necessary to eat anything at all. Once you approach 2 hours though it gets more complicated. If you just want to keep moving then you still don't need to eat anything (especially if you are not riding non-stop hard), you will be able to continue just using fat. However you will go considerably slower and feel pretty rough.

That is exactly what happens to me - two hours I can do strong and fast (for me) and then really struggle from then on and feel dog rough most time.

bahzob wrote:

If you eat some carbs then you will be able to go faster. Going faster means you will burn more calories per minute and get fitter. Getting fitter also means you will be more capable of going faster in future. This explains the paradox that if you want to lose weight there will be occasions when eating results in burning more calories than not eating since you will be able to ride faster both during the ride and on future occasions.

Brilliant - that makes sense - I can now see why eating something at that point would work.

SBezza wrote:

Obviously if you do training that wipes out a fair amount of glycogen, it is going to take up to 48 hours to replenish it fully, and if you go out training hard again before it is fully replenished, it will get depleted even further and you will not be able to go as hard for as long. This is where weight loss and frequent longish high intensity training don't always mix and you have to be very careful about calorie intake and making sure you replenish glycogen to a reasonable level and still have a calorie deficit, it can be a very fine balancing act.

Thanks for this too - I have recently (last couple of months) tried to up the frequency and the distance. I am now regularily doing over two hour rides and trying to do then every day or second day and have been feeling dog rough from the start! I couldn't understand why but now it makes sense.

I think if I am going to keep this up I really need to start having some small intake of food around that two hour mark - I find it really easy to identify when it happen I just thought is was my body being reluctant to flip over to burning only/mainly fat as gylcogen ran out. This also makes sense of why on this new schedule it isn't taking two hours to feel that way - more like half an hour to an hour - the glycogen must not have been replenished!

Brilliant - many thanks :!:

bahzob

One thing I have found works well for me. I have use a tri bag to store jelly babies in and get into the habit of eating one every few minutes or so. I will also eat a couple just before any hard effort (apart from the nutritional benefit this also helps mentally)

This makes it easy to fine tune how much you eat and judge progress, e.g. now you may find you need 40 sweets to get round a ride, later you may find you only need 20.

SBezza

Also don't forget the effort you can do for 2 hours, you just might not be able to sustain for longer, fatigue will play a greater part here.

Just say your threshold power (max you can do in 1 hour) was 300 watts, and you tried doing this for 1:15 mins, you would still have enough glycogen, but you would have to put out less than 300 watts after the hour mark, and as such slow down as your body couldn't cope. Same happens with any duration, though the difference in what you can manage is not as marked the longer the duration.

Training helps you up the point in which you have to slow down, so if you wanted to train to go hard for longer than 2 hours, you would need to lessen the intensity a little and go slightly longer, eventually you get to a stage where you can go the same intensity as you did for 2 hours but for longer, it might not need more carbs to do this however. Even a hard tempo 2 hours would not use all the glycogen you had if properly fuelled before the ride, as this wouldn't use 100% glycogen, so doing 3 hours at a slightly easier tempo effort would still be doable if glycogen is topped up. Your body doesn't just flip it's fuel that is being used, you can't burn fat without using glycogen as well, it just uses differing amounts based on intensity and availability.

When you do truly run out of glycogen you will know about it, as you will just slow down to a crawl, and may even feel very light headed and ill. I have never bonked so I can say for sure what it is like, but this is how people have told me it is like. It is completely different from just being tired on the bike.

If you are training quite hard every day, then you need to think seriously about what goes into your body, if you are just riding to lose weight and try and get a bit faster, and you say only train/ride every other day, then you can be a bit more slack on food intake and can probably have a greater calorie defecit, and you should recover enough between rides.

teisetrotter

I have been losing weight steadily for around 6 months. I try to eat a very balanced diet and make sure I am fueled properly before riding.

But the thing that has helped me the most is a calorie tracker on my smart phone. It has been fantastic to know where my calorie decrease needs to come from. So I am eating a lot less because I know the impact and I can set myself realistic goals

www.myfinesspal.com

apreading

wishitwasallflat wrote:

I think if I am going to keep this up I really need to start having some small intake of food around that two hour mark

If you want the energy coming through from the 2 hour mark, you need to eat before then - how long before depends on the type of food and how long it take to kick in. This is why I start eatingat least 30 mins before I need the energy.

adm1

apreading wrote:

wishitwasallflat wrote:

I think if I am going to keep this up I really need to start having some small intake of food around that two hour mark

If you want the energy coming through from the 2 hour mark, you need to eat before then - how long before depends on the type of food and how long it take to kick in. This is why I start eatingat least 30 mins before I need the energy.

Exactly this! I was just about to post the same thing. So as others have said, anything up to around the 2 hour or so mark, you shouldn't need anything, but if you are going longer, you need to feed yourself before the 2 hour point - and then regularly after that.

When I do longer rides, I normally start eating at abou the hour mark, and then try to eat something every 30 minutes or so. Typically, a banana, Clif bar, some fig rolls etc.... I also supplement my water on long rides with a carb drink mix. Basically, I try to ingest about 600 calories per hour to keep the fuel stores topped up - then I stop about an hour prior to the end of the ride.

wishitwasallflat

Brilliant - thanks again to all for the advice

T.C.

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

phreak

Why not just have some High 5 or something in your bottles? Depending on the size then you'll have a couple of hundred calories in your bottles, which should be plenty for rides up to 4 hours if you have a good meal before you go.

Wirral_paul

T.C. wrote:

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

A protein recovery drink straight away for me (before a shower) with a 4:1 mix of carbs:protein, and then a meal afterwards (maybe an hour later). You need protein to aid muscle recovery - so tuna is good

ShutUpLegs

Wirral_Paul wrote:

T.C. wrote:

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

A protein recovery drink straight away for me (before a shower) with a 4:1 mix of carbs:protein, and then a meal afterwards (maybe an hour later). You need protein to aid muscle recovery - so tuna is good

How does a protein recovery drink aid your cardiovascular system :?:

dw300

ShutUpLegs wrote:

Wirral_Paul wrote:

T.C. wrote:

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

A protein recovery drink straight away for me (before a shower) with a 4:1 mix of carbs:protein, and then a meal afterwards (maybe an hour later). You need protein to aid muscle recovery - so tuna is good

How does a protein recovery drink aid your cardiovascular system :?:

It means all your muscles are in slightly better shape day after day, allowing you to train harder and more often that you might otherwise. And of course better training equals better CV system. Simples.

Oh, the heart is also a muscle.

I know you know all that. I'm just not sure why you asked.

phreak

Not sure why you'd need a protein shake though. Just have a pint of milk. It's about 1/4 of the price and just as effective.

dw300

phreak wrote:

Not sure why you'd need a protein shake though. Just have a pint of milk. It's about 1/4 of the price and just as effective.

Well, he might be lactose intolerant. A lot of people can't manage a whole pint without a lot of gas. I can't.

I don't know what price you think protein powder is, but at about 30p for 20g of protein, and 25p for 18g in the milk, it's about the same.

But by mixing your own post ride drink, you can control the calories, which you might want to do if you're looking at dropping some fat. If you're drinking semi-skimmed you're drinking 9g / 81 cals worth of fat, which seems a bit pointless unless you're already at your optimum weight. Some people will tell you that the fat will slow your absorption of the other nutrients, which post ride is kinda the point of taking a dextrose/protein mix during that time where your best able to benefit from it.

The vitamins and minerals are a great reason to go for the milk.

I love a small glass of milk, and it's great post ride, but I got the feeling that you feel there is no reason whatsoever to do it any other way. I just wanted to share both points of view.

t.m.h.n.e.t

phreak wrote:

Not sure why you'd need a protein shake though. Just have a pint of milk. It's about 1/4 of the price and just as effective.

Common misconception thanks to muppets and Panorama. They are pretty much the same price give or take 2p

ShutUpLegs

dw300 wrote:

ShutUpLegs wrote:

Wirral_Paul wrote:

T.C. wrote:

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

A protein recovery drink straight away for me (before a shower) with a 4:1 mix of carbs:protein, and then a meal afterwards (maybe an hour later). You need protein to aid muscle recovery - so tuna is good

How does a protein recovery drink aid your cardiovascular system :?:

It means all your muscles are in slightly better shape day after day, allowing you to train harder and more often that you might otherwise. And of course better training equals better CV system. Simples.

Oh, the heart is also a muscle.

I know you know all that. I'm just not sure why you asked.

The OP is asking about losing weight and eating during rides. Add a protein shake after a ride and his calorie intake will be creeping up.

t.m.h.n.e.t

ShutUpLegs wrote:

dw300 wrote:

ShutUpLegs wrote:

Wirral_Paul wrote:

T.C. wrote:

but what about after? Is that a dangerous time? i've started to take tuna sandwiches after a ride instead of a protein shake.

A protein recovery drink straight away for me (before a shower) with a 4:1 mix of carbs:protein, and then a meal afterwards (maybe an hour later). You need protein to aid muscle recovery - so tuna is good

How does a protein recovery drink aid your cardiovascular system :?:

It means all your muscles are in slightly better shape day after day, allowing you to train harder and more often that you might otherwise. And of course better training equals better CV system. Simples.

Oh, the heart is also a muscle.

I know you know all that. I'm just not sure why you asked.

The OP is asking about losing weight and eating during rides. Add a protein shake after a ride and his calorie intake will be creeping up.

Creating a very large deficit isn't particularly helpful.

Wirral_paul

ShutUpLegs wrote:

The OP is asking about losing weight and eating during rides. Add a protein shake after a ride and his calorie intake will be creeping up.

Not necessarily - depends what else you eat afterwards and we all generally need calories after a ride if pushing ourselves hard. Its all a balancing act, but if you dont take in protein then your muscles wont recover so well. Training is effectively breaking down muscle fibres which then repair themselves stronger (using proteins). If there's not enough protein available, then your muscles cant recover properly and you wont get stronger. Sore legs the following day is pretty typical of your muscles not having repaired properly.

One thing is for sure though - starving your body after a ride is not the way to lose weight. It will probably make you ill though. Knowing what your body needs is the key - and is no doubt a big part of what separates the best from the rest.

adm1

Wirral_Paul wrote:

If there's not enough protein available, then your muscles cant recover properly and you wont get stronger. Sore legs the following day is pretty typical of your muscles not having repaired properly.

Well, buggeration...... I ate about two pounds of sashimi yesterday, which must be PLENTY of protein (and a big glass of chocolate milk right after my ride) and my legs are still sore today.

I have been riding 50 miles before breakfast most days for the last two weeks - so it's probably time for a few days off. And more raw fish.

jgsi

I would suggest that our 'western' diet would be hard pushed to become protein deficient to actually 'necessitate' added protein...
and I don't think DOMS is a result of low intake of protein..... but then again I am not a nutritionist and I dont do anything else but cycle , so DOMS is a far and distant memory and I am up to 148 training miles per week on Strava at the moment which is my way of giving some anecdotal credance to what I have written..