The official TrainerRoad thread

dw300

Could you describe in what ways is it different to the TP stuff?

markp80

Here's tonight's Monitor sweetspot ride. A very different beast to the TP stuff I've been doing so far.

- I've done Monitor and found it hard work just for the number of intervals.

I did Geiger last night -
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/86793
- Difficult again, butthis time because the intervals were twelve minutes long.

The plan tells me it's an hour and a half of Antelope tonight.
So I've decided - thay're all hard!

MarkP

ChrisSA

dw300 wrote:

Could you describe in what ways is it different to the TP stuff?

TR's Sweetspot rides (vs TP - threshold power) seems to have fairly cadence stuff in - over/under cadence drills. SS seems harder as you need to modulate the power and hold back, plus the cadence crap. I like to spin so most of the 'fast' stuff was self selected cadence, and I had to drop down to 90ish RPM for the 'normal' bits.

I do feel more rested than after Monday's TP effort.

manxshred

Well, I have now done my first 20min FTP test and I learnt a few things:
I need more fans!!
And I need to learn to pace myself better
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/87207

New FTP of 210 so we will see how things go this winter.

jgsi

ManxShred wrote:

Well, I have now done my first 20min FTP test and I learnt a few things:
I need more fans!!
And I need to learn to pace myself better
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/87207

New FTP of 210 so we will see how things go this winter.

I'd say - good start!
You can certainly drop the HR down after peak effort!

manxshred

Thanks, I have noticed that my cadence is a lower than some, but it just seems to be the way I ride.

The cadence sensor kept dropping during the ride which was very annoying, but I'll try get that sorted.

markp80

ManxShred wrote:

Well, I have now done my first 20min FTP test and I learnt a few things:
I need more fans!!
And I need to learn to pace myself better
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/87207

New FTP of 210 so we will see how things go this winter.

- Nice one, I'd like to think I could get my FTP up there at some point.

I just finished week three of the six week plan last night with 90 mins of Antelope -
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/87238
I can definitely feel an improvement since I first started and I now consciously try to push a little bit harder than the plan asks for, although it's hard work (the HR is definitely up there!) Maybe I'll adjust my FTP up by 5% for the last three weeks.
I suppose it seems obvious but I find the 90 min sessions tougher than the hour workouts. TrainerRoad is definitely working though, in as much as I find it really motivates me to not give up even when it hurts (ie always) - easily done on a gym exercise bike for example.

Oh, the other good news for me is I've lost 2lb/week over the last three weeks - hurrah!

Cheers,
MarkP

stueys

Tried TR for the first time earlier this week, great product. Posted my first fitness test but as you'll see from the peaks I probably need to have another stab at it properly. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/86776

Seen that people are talking about plans on TR, I've only seen individual rides, where can I find the plans on there and any recommendations?

richa

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans

Essentially a series of workouts.

dw300

MarkP80 wrote:

- Nice one, I'd like to think I could get my FTP up there at some point.

I just finished week three of the six week plan last night with 90 mins of Antelope -
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/87238
I can definitely feel an improvement since I first started and I now consciously try to push a little bit harder than the plan asks for, although it's hard work (the HR is definitely up there!) Maybe I'll adjust my FTP up by 5% for the last three weeks.
I suppose it seems obvious but I find the 90 min sessions tougher than the hour workouts. TrainerRoad is definitely working though, in as much as I find it really motivates me to not give up even when it hurts (ie always) - easily done on a gym exercise bike for example.

Oh, the other good news for me is I've lost 2lb/week over the last three weeks - hurrah!

Cheers,
MarkP

You're doing it right obviously!

Stueys wrote:

Tried TR for the first time earlier this week, great product. Posted my first fitness test but as you'll see from the peaks I probably need to have another stab at it properly. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/86776

Seen that people are talking about plans on TR, I've only seen individual rides, where can I find the plans on there and any recommendations?

Judging by heart rate and the power you put out in the rest periods, it looks like you should be trying to sustain at least 300 during the 8 min intervals .. looks like you took that in your stride maybe?

stueys

RichA wrote:

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans

Essentially a series of workouts.

:oops: cunningly hidden under 'plans' I see...

Thanks, didn't even know that was there. Looks really good.

stueys

dw300 wrote:

Judging by heart rate and the power you put out in the rest periods, it looks like you should be trying to sustain at least 300 during the 8 min intervals .. looks like you took that in your stride maybe?

Thanks for advice, I think so. Had a light touch of man-flu this week and a big ride tomorrow so wasn't pushing hard. Will give that a better go next week before I start training proper.

Out of interest, what's a good club level to aim for? I don't really have a reference point.

dw300

Stueys wrote:

dw300 wrote:

Judging by heart rate and the power you put out in the rest periods, it looks like you should be trying to sustain at least 300 during the 8 min intervals .. looks like you took that in your stride maybe?

Thanks for advice, I think so. Had a light touch of man-flu this week and a big ride tomorrow so wasn't pushing hard. Will give that a better go next week before I start training proper.

Out of interest, what's a good club level to aim for? I don't really have a reference point.

I think the guidelines are .. 3W/kg for a club rider. 4W/kg for a good club rider. 5W/kg and you should start looking for a contract.

stueys

dw300 wrote:

I think the guidelines are .. 3W/kg for a club rider. 4W/kg for a good club rider. 5W/kg and you should start looking for a contract.

Thanks, I have some work to do

bigpikle

and those guidelines are based on properly measure power outputs from a calibrated power meter, not some of the random numbers generated by many of these trainers....

t.m.h.n.e.t

Bigpikle wrote:

and those guidelines are based on properly measure power outputs from a calibrated power meter, not some of the random numbers generated by many of these trainers....

It explained a lot when he asked for a "reference point".

dw300

Bigpikle wrote:

and those guidelines are based on properly measure power outputs from a calibrated power meter, not some of the random numbers generated by many of these trainers....

Yeh, and don't weight yourself on bathroom scales, medical grade only, and all results at sea-level .. because then your results would be totally invalid .. :roll:

Lol, so much hating on VP. It's perfectly adequate for a ballpark figure.

ChrisSA

It doesn't matter what the number is, so long as it's repeatable. Then you can use it to benchmark and improve.

Comparing FTP rider to rider is nothing but a dick waving competition!

bigpikle

here we go....

IME the power numbers are NOT repeatable though. The slightest difference in tyre pressure, tightness of fixing to the turbo, ambient temp in the room you train etc all effect the power numbers on many/most trainers. Then, the power numbers change during the same session as the turbo warms up as well. That makes comparisons fairly pointless and certainly NOT repeatable. Even tyre wear effects the speed on the turbo.

I know as I use a Powertap and have tried it on several turbos. Same power = widely variable speeds under various conditions.

dw300

Bigpikle wrote:

*sigh* here we go.... *starts talking to us as if we're children*

Thanks for the condescending post, but anyone using TR VP, is likely doing so because it brings the most gains-per-pound as far as Virtual Power training goes, and I'm sure it's also because it suits our level of riding or competition.

I'd be interested to know what level you ride at and if you actually need the Powertap? Are you so close to the limits of your ability that those that couple of percent more accuracy make a difference. I understand that if you're training 20+ hours a week you'd want to make sure your training load doesn't get the better of you. Or did you just have money burning a hole?

jgsi

Bigpikle wrote:

here we go....

IME the power numbers are NOT repeatable though. The slightest difference in tyre pressure, tightness of fixing to the turbo, ambient temp in the room you train etc all effect the power numbers on many/most trainers. Then, the power numbers change during the same session as the turbo warms up as well. That makes comparisons fairly pointless and certainly NOT repeatable. Even tyre wear effects the speed on the turbo.

I know as I use a Powertap and have tried it on several turbos. Same power = widely variable speeds under various conditions.

No not " here we go" Bigpikle.
You have made your point, anyone using TR with virtual power has taken it onboard - we aint daft. honest
If you are using TR with your powertap then I am sure you can make some valid points whenever the occasion rises.
Thank you.
If you are not using TR, no need for further comments on this thread from you in future.
I dont want this thread to descend into petty argument is my point.

bigpikle

Certainly not trying to turn this into an argument and I only responded because the post before mine made the point that the data is repeatable and therefore good, and there is a danger if you use this as an assumption for making decisions, as its simply not always true. Seems like many people get that but not everyone.

I'm not against TR for a moment, and in fact I like Trainer Road and anything that creates structure, motivation and helps drive results, especially during the challenges of indoor training. I've looked seriously at using it several times from its initial launch and again last week, but have simply decided its not for me it for 2 reasons:

1. I've looked at dozens and dozens of the individual sessions and all the plans in detail and they dont correspond with my personal training strategy. I prefer longer intervals of 12-15+ mins minimum for any sweetspost and threshold efforts and I'm not really keen on doing L5/VO2 work at this time of the year. I'm not saying the sessions dont work, as I'm sure they do for some, but they just arent the sessions I find effective for me. There is a strong focus on using higher intensity efforts and only shorter tempo/SST/L4 intervals which isnt for me. I've got to believe in the plan and sessions within it 110% or I simply wont give it my best. I wish they had plans that replicated that ethos and then I'd sign up...

2. I use Golden Cheetah instead, where I can create the workouts I want within the software and do the same thing with Ant+ showing progress through the session, play videos etc playing if I want and record the data direct to the laptop. Its not as good a UI as TR but there's no cost then either, although the cost of TR does seem a complete bargain anyway.

I have a good idea of what works for me as I have developed my FTP from 170 -300w in the last 18 months using this strategy and the PT for monitoring during and after sessions. Might not be for everyone though and thats fine. I find the PT an invaluable tool in all my focused training rides - whether 2x20s or 4 hour endurance rides and suggesting only people looking for the final few % of improvement need power meters is like suggesting we shouldnt have nice bikes until we're near pro status. We buy whatever we want for whatever reasons we like - for me it was the big frustration of not being able to compare workouts and results that pushed me to it.

If I had less time and didnt already have a successful strategy I'd jump on TR for the motivation thing alone, but I'm just saying that some of the posts here seem to suggest that some people DONT realise the challenges with using data from many of these turbos. I've learned that power data can be amazingly helpful in so many ways but there is also a trap of basing training decisions/efforts etc on data that isnt reliable and repeatable, like some of the recent PMs that seem riddled with issues. I just think this is just clouded over on the TR marketing and site, understandably as they are trying to sign up users. 1/4 turn on the adjustment of my KK or 5 psi difference in the rear tyre could make a record breaking workout or below par workout. My PT is just the same if you dont take care of it and how you use it but luckily there are fewer variables to worry about and they are easier to control. It would just be great if the price for the kit was much more reasonable so they could be used by many more people who are working so hard in their training - hopefully increasing competition in the market place will make that happen in the not too distant future.

jgsi

Super post.
I'm with you on the intensity must match time of year thinking - I see no benefit of 'pushing the boat out' in terms of vo2 or AC workouts.
I am sticking to one of the plans, but judiciously making adjustments - hopefully making it more beneficial to myself.
As regards going up to a pt wheel , between a rock and a hard place. would dearly love a new frame for next season... but I have to justify the cost... persevering with TR is hopefully going to me some payback.

bigpikle

O/T alert!

Great thread on indoor training workouts
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192805;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=-1;

yep - frame or PT is a tough call. Of course the issue with the PT is also that you are then limited for wheel choices... Hopefully more PM choices in the near future will help some of this, as I'd dearly like a crank PM to swap between bikes and allow me to use my fancy wheels AND have power data. One day...

dw300

That long post is more like it Bigpikle .. interesting and valid points that might make people understand the different levels of training and performance.

On the subject of tolerances and accuracy though ..

Tyre pressure, clamping pressure, etc .. we know they can make a difference, but they're small differences in the grand scheme of things. Maybe 5-10% max error? I have a good feel for TR and my trainer now, I set it up identically every time, and like you have grown my FTP from 170 (currently in the 230s - VP of course).

Now in the months I've been using TR, i'd have to have been setting up the equipment wrongly, each time worse than the last to get an error that big in my favour. Remember, you could set up unfavourably too, making workouts harder, and this is just as likely as an error in your favour. So to get round that you simply look at trends of results .. like a best fit line through lots of data points, and this is where you get accuracy from something that might not be perfectly accurate.

You can allow for the error as well .. If you're banging in the same workout with FTP results of 270-290, then you're probably around 280. If you're worried, base your new FTP on the higher number and you'll be at no risk of doing workouts that aren't pushing you sufficiently.

I understand that when you reach a point where you are very fit and are trying to peak, or raise your FTP by 5-10W here and there, that VP might not be accurate enough. Or when training 20 hours a week, you'd want to more accurately account for the cumulative training load. That's the time that you'd look for a PT or better. I think I'd still use TR with a PT.

Oh, by the way .. TR are developing (might already be released) a workout editor, so that you can plan your own intervals. No extra charge.

ChrisSA

Bigpikle has redeemed himself He makes good points, and I think he knew the spirit of my comments. I still think for the intended audience, TR is *repeatable* withing limits. I always pump the rear tyre to 110psi. I cannot control the room temp, though whether it's lunch or night time I have the windows open and the fan on full.

I also agree with his thoughts on training. For me, the off season (as a wobbly-riding triathlete) is about building FTP. I'd like to think I have a fairly decent base after training for and completing an IM this year. Now it's about refocusing for next year doing sprint tris and 10mi/25mi TTs. FTP and SS a go-go. For this reason I stick with a 45min Thunderbolt, and then an hour for SS (currently Monitor, but looking for something that doesn't fanny around with cadence too much).

I wholly agree about not all the workouts suiting us. However the hard work it done (to an extent....). It's a case of turbo on, brain off. I don't have to worry about putting workouts together.

Related to this is dw300's 5-10% error; the difference between SS and FTP, and FTP and VO2. Though of course the level boundaries are a little more vague than an instant cutoff.

I've analysed the past 4 weeks of Thunderbolt. Discarded 1st week as FTP was set to 175 not 220. Second week turbo was on #5 not #4. Which leaves me with 2 weeks of data i.e. 10 intervals. I also capture the power on my PowerCal, which works well for Intervals. The FTP test gives a powercal FTP of 235W vs TRs 220W. The spread of data between the 10 intervals is 100-107% of FTP. Comparing the two week spread, each week also fits into the 100-107% FTP. Either way, it's getting easier each week. Why? FTP is improving, making each workout more and more SS and less and less FTP.

Obviously the PowerCal isn't as good as an SRM/Quarq/Powertap, it does a similar job. Pseudorepeatable*

I'd love something proper, but feel limited by each option. Crank based makes sense for me as I can train on the TT bike and then race it, but then won't collect data at the weekend from the road bike. A PowerTap would do both, but then I'm messing with turbo tyres. I guess the PowerCal is like a portable TR.

And of course the whole thing falls apart when we consider that FTP as measured on the turbo is likely to be out by ~10-15% compared to an flat 10/25mi TT effort. So then we realise that all our zones are out, and we have to do it all over again.

bigpikle

yep - this is when it starts to get really daft. Error on error on error etc!

Although 5-10% might not seem much, it is still worth remembering what these small %'s can actually mean though in real numbers. Doing a 90% FTP interval, basing off an FTP of 300w, would mean a target wattage of 270w. A -5% error off that would be 255w (L3) and if you were out by -10% you would be down at 240'ishw (low L3) and nowhere near doing an L4 threshold interval at all, despite thinking you are. Suddenly the threshold 2x20 you think you are banging out session after session is really just a tempo workout I am constantly being surprised how a few % makes a big actual w difference when talking FTPs.

Despite mega fans 18" from my face, I also struggle slightly hitting the watts indoors. My best 20 mins is typically 20-25w less than outdoors at current levels. A good % of that is simply mental I have realised, as being 10km from home and having 20 mins of an interval left is easier to to ride hard than staring at a screen in a cold garage etc, but I also suspect some is physical. I have contemplated setting a 'indoor FTP' but then realised that I'm missing the point, as FTP is FTP regardless of where you try and ride it, so I just have to accept my best indoor threshold efforts will be 90-93% of my outdoor efforts.

The problem with the workouts we are talking about is that its hard to get people to pay for 2x20, 3x20, 2x30 workout plans, so people complicate them to 'add value' and make them unique and potentially saleable. While some may do that, I suspect others reduce the benefits and just deliver some variety to keep interest during an hour. It really doesnt take much mental effort to see you through a 2x20 though, and if you want to ride TT's or tri bike legs then you need to be able to do it anyway! A bit of Sufferfest never hurt anyone though

markp80

As far as I can see, it's repeatability that's the issue rather than the accuracy of the absolute power values. I personally try to minimise this by a) inflating my tyre to the same pressure every Monday evening, b) clamping the roller against the wheel by the same number of turns every time. The turbo is in my lounge where the temperature is fairly constant, although TR claim that the KK fluid viscosity is fairly temperature independant so that shouldn't make any difference.
I'd be interested to know the variance in recorded VP versus variance in actual for this type of scenario. On a personal basis, the "feel" of the wprkouts seems to my amateur legs appropriately consistent.
Whether or not my actual FTP is set correctly, well, that's a matter for how I performed in the test a few weeks ago. But, the test was done under the same conditions as the workouts, so it's the variance in VP vs actual which is the key. Trying to minimise these effects is all you can do really.
Accepted that the difference between the training zones isn't huge percentages, but if you do a test which identifies your FTP then try and do your workouts under as-near-as-you-can-get conditions (in terms of turbo setup) then I'm not sure what more you can do. I certainly think it's better than nothing, and it definitely feels right when I'm doing the workouts. FWIW, I also feel as if my FTP is improving. At the end of the day that's what I'm trying to achieve, and I don't think what I'm seeing is the result of me consistently and gradually increasing the error in the optimistic direction.
Last night was Thunder. After all the debate on what we're measuring, I believed the figures, went by feel from last week, and added 5% to the workout level.
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/88612

Cheers,
MarkP

dw300

I think you should test again MarkyP!

Here's a question for everyone .. if you could only do 2 TR workouts for the winter season, which would you choose, and in what structure?

I did mono again yesterday .. Mono - 1.5hr - 0.79IF - 93TSS

Warwickshire Whizzer

Hi all, just received my Ant + USB stick from the good folks at CRC and cureently installing all the software. Keen to see what all the fuss is about!

One Question - Can I run my Edge as well as the TR software - suspect i can as my HR often gets picked up by my and my brothers Edge, though not sure why I need to use the Edge too thinking about it...