Stage 19 *SPOLIERS*
Comments
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iainf72 wrote:Carl_P wrote:iainf72 wrote:Lichtblick wrote:What are "spoliers" ?
Threads which will tell you results. The reasoning being, some people will only watch the stage in the evening and won't want to know the result.
So what are SPOLIERS then ????
The french version
Ha Ha Ha
Actually it's the Gaelic version :oops:0 -
“When we were riding on the front at 450 watts or whatever, someone would attack and Mick Rogers would say ‘just leave him, he can’t sustain it,’” Wiggins said.
“Someone is going to have to sustain 500 watts over 20 minutes of a climb to stay away which is not possible anymore unless you’ve got a couple of extra litres of blood. That’s the reality of it. It really is."
Bernie's tinfoil hat just buzzed... Good to see somebody actually talk about what cycling used to be like until very recently though, and heartening to see the change."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
That reaffirms what everybody could see. Evans' attack on the Croix de Fer was about as pointless as they come. Nobody in the Sky team looked at all concerned. Come to think of it, Nibali's attack on the descent the other day was also quite pointless. I don't know what he was thinking.0
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Quite an interesting quote. A lot of people have complained that it's boring that Sky have done it by the numbers. Maybe we have only seen 'exciting' not by the numbers racing in the past because no one could be sure of what the numbers were? Now that the max numbers are a factor of human physiology rather than more nafarious means, maybe doing it by the numbers is the smart choice.disgruntledgoat wrote:“When we were riding on the front at 450 watts or whatever, someone would attack and Mick Rogers would say ‘just leave him, he can’t sustain it,’” Wiggins said.
“Someone is going to have to sustain 500 watts over 20 minutes of a climb to stay away which is not possible anymore unless you’ve got a couple of extra litres of blood. That’s the reality of it. It really is."
Bernie's tinfoil hat just buzzed... Good to see somebody actually talk about what cycling used to be like until very recently though, and heartening to see the change.0 -
Slim Boy Fat wrote:
Quite an interesting quote. A lot of people have complained that it's boring that Sky have done it by the numbers. Maybe we have only seen 'exciting' not by the numbers racing in the past because no one could be sure of what the numbers were? Now that the max numbers are a factor of human physiology rather than more nafarious means, maybe doing it by the numbers is the smart choice.disgruntledgoat wrote:“When we were riding on the front at 450 watts or whatever, someone would attack and Mick Rogers would say ‘just leave him, he can’t sustain it,’” Wiggins said.
“Someone is going to have to sustain 500 watts over 20 minutes of a climb to stay away which is not possible anymore unless you’ve got a couple of extra litres of blood. That’s the reality of it. It really is."
Bernie's tinfoil hat just buzzed... Good to see somebody actually talk about what cycling used to be like until very recently though, and heartening to see the change.
Which makes me think you'll never see leading riders releasing their data. Think about it, if you knew the *numbers* of a rival, you could easily have a programme running on the DS' laptop in the car which would give you a "success" probability of him making an attack stick.
eg. Sky riding the front at 450Watts, Evans goes on the attack: armed with Evans performance data, and controlling for variables such as gradient, distance already travelled, temperature etc, the DS can tell Wiggins and co that there's a 24% chance of Evans gaining a minute if Sky maintain current power output. It could also model out the fact that the probability for Evans success if they up to 475 for five minutes, sacrificing Porte in the process, will drop to <0.2%.
Once you've worked out a system that lets you do that, all you need to do is ensure you have the budget to hire five of the pro-peloton's top twenty diesel engines and you're set... oh...0 -
plus - they've got real-time data from their own riders from heart rate monitors and god-knows what else. Feed that into a live model and you're basically playing poker with the advantage of knowing what three out of four of the hands around the table are.0
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Yeah, but it's about being able to put out the wattage for the right amount of time, and that's what Sky and Brad were able to do. I suspect that Schleck and Contador could have unhinged the carefully written Sky plan, at least made them go to plan B. I'm so glad Brad won, but I hope next year's Tour has a lot less TTing. I think it wasn't only Sky that shut the race down, before Brad took Yellow, Cancellara had such a small margin that RSNT didn't let any break go, they dangled them at 4 minutes, and then closed it down in the last 20K. Then Sky took over and the whole race was controlled from beginning to end. It would have been more exciting if a big break had gone early, and put a minor contender in Yellow, like with Voeckler last year, and Nocintini a couple of year's ago. Just the presence of a serious climbing contender would have made the race different. Still loved it, Brad will win, and it was a very enjoyable 3 weeks for me, even if it wasn't the greatest GT ever.0
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-I am delighted for Wiggins. As I mentioned here (viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12865063#p17728454) he has ridden an amazing year and to cap it now with the first British TdF win, in crushing style, with two stages, is a properly heavyweight achievement. He may even get the Olympic TT and the Worlds TT which would give him a phenomenal year.
-Wiggins forearm is bigger than his upper arm.
-Wiggins, even by Pro standards, is incredibly ripped.
-Wiggins has a strong knowledge of the history of the sport and its riders.
-Wiggins absolutely crushed his opposition. He did it in the Time Trials predominantly. This is 100x more boring than someone crushing them in the mountains - I am not sure how so many of you cannot see this; I guess it is down to the fact he is British.
-TJ, monster ride today and through the Tour to take 5th.
It’s going to be incredible. But I want to dedicate this success to all the people that lost their lives in Colorado in the shooting. It was devastating news. It happened close to my home. I just wanted to say that my thoughts and feelings are with them. I’ll be thinking about them when I’ll arrive in Paris tomorrow.
-Evans just wasn't in it. It hasn't been his year.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Will.C wrote:
Thanks, top bloke there.
His whole life, even from a kid motivated by the road champions, has been cycling. He has won the best race in the World, I am very happy for him.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Winning margins of the Tours. Do you see that margin this Tour...
2012
General Classification after Stage 19
GBR 1 WIGGINS, Bradley (SKY PROCYCLING) 84:26:31
FRA 10 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ-BIG MAT) + 17:17
2011
General Classification after Stage 21
AUS 1 EVANS, Cadel (BMC RACING) 86h 12' 22"
FRA 10 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 10' 11"
2010
General Classification after Stage 20
1 CONTADOR Alberto (ASTANA)
10 HORNER Christopher (RADIOSHACK) + 12' 02"
2009
1. Contador
10. Le Mevel +14' 25''
2008
General classification after stage 21
1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
10 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale 9.12
2007
Final General Classification
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 91.00.26
10 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 14.25Contador is the Greatest0 -
Do you think that says more about Wiggins and Sky FF or more about the relatively poor challenge from others this year?frenchfighter wrote:Winning margins of the Tours. Do you see that margin this Tour...
2012
General Classification after Stage 19
GBR 1 WIGGINS, Bradley (SKY PROCYCLING) 84:26:31
FRA 10 PINOT, Thibaut (FDJ-BIG MAT) + 17:17
2011
General Classification after Stage 21
AUS 1 EVANS, Cadel (BMC RACING) 86h 12' 22"
FRA 10 PERAUD, Jean-Christophe (AG2R LA MONDIALE) + 10' 11"
2010
General Classification after Stage 20
1 CONTADOR Alberto (ASTANA)
10 HORNER Christopher (RADIOSHACK) + 12' 02"
2009
1. Contador
10. Le Mevel +14' 25''
2008
General classification after stage 21
1 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
10 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale 9.12
2007
Final General Classification
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team 91.00.26
10 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 14.250 -
Interesting picture of TJ in a TT position....is it just me or is he sort of similar to Wiggo position wise? I've been very impressed with him this tour-he still seems open to having a pretty bad day in the mountains, but has generally been strong and his TTing has been very impressive-in a few years I reckon he'll be the strongest TTer out of all the GC contenders.0
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That quote above re the Watts makes no sense. So Rogers can ride on the front at 450 for a long period and if someone goes off the front it is superhuman?
Also, numbers are only a part of the story behind wins.
It is worth mentioning also that this sport is what it is and held up for what it is, due to its history. And its history is built on True Champions, Legends, Incredible Feats and Inspiring Stories. Pain, Suffering, Exploits. Even if these things are exaggerated and embellished.
The people who support this sport do so largely because of these things (I certainly do). The fans that line the roadside. The fans that are there in terrible conditions. The fans that increase the viewers which attracts the sponsors.
So without this romantic past, the sport would not currently exist as we know it.
Yes many of these things were created by drugs, but many weren't and even the ones that did, doesn't detract too much from it.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Tom BB wrote:Interesting picture of TJ in a TT position....is it just me or is he sort of similar to Wiggo position wise? I've been very impressed with him this tour-he still seems open to having a pretty bad day in the mountains, but has generally been strong and his TTing has been very impressive-in a few years I reckon he'll be the strongest TTer out of all the GC contenders.
Yeah, unlike Froome, TJ has serious form in TTs over many years.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Didn't Andy Schleck win in 2010 btw? :P :twisted:
Reckon TJ will ever win a GT?0 -
Slim Boy Fat wrote:
Do you think that's say more about Wiggins and Sky FF or more about the relatively poor challenge from others this year?frenchfighter wrote:Winning margins of the Tours. Do you see that margin this Tour...
I think it is down to Wiggins dominance in the TT mainly. All the mountains were reasonably close. Sky have too much impact given their ridiculous budget which makes things unfair - they should reduce the teams to 5 or something.Contador is the Greatest0 -
That quote makes perfect sense; perhaps unfortunately.frenchfighter wrote:That quote above re the Watts makes no sense. So Rogers can ride on the front at 450 for a long period and if someone goes off the front it is superhuman?
There's an upper limit on what can be achieved without PEDs that can be derived very easily. Powermeters and maths remove the romance of the old era.
One of the issues in many sports is that human limits are being reached through effective sports science, so there is a certain dullness: a cluster near the limit of possibility.
This tour has been dull (I really like BW & am in awe of the achievement, but it hasn't been all that exciting to watch), but with better parcours and a different bunch of riders, it needn't be terminal.0 -
Tom BB wrote:Reckon TJ will ever win a GT?
Hej just won the Giro. Yeah I reckon he has it in him.
It's all a bit scary now for me for the future with what this sport could develop into if the GTs will come down to what we are beginning to witness.Contador is the Greatest0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:“When we were riding on the front at 450 watts or whatever, someone would attack and Mick Rogers would say ‘just leave him, he can’t sustain it,’” Wiggins said.
“Someone is going to have to sustain 500 watts over 20 minutes of a climb to stay away which is not possible anymore unless you’ve got a couple of extra litres of blood. That’s the reality of it. It really is."
Bernie's tinfoil hat just buzzed... Good to see somebody actually talk about what cycling used to be like until very recently though, and heartening to see the change.
one the most astonishing tours I have sat and watched... especially for the what was happening perception wise around the race.
this sort of talk was deemed impossible"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Richrd2205 wrote:
That quote makes perfect sense; perhaps unfortunately.frenchfighter wrote:That quote above re the Watts makes no sense. So Rogers can ride on the front at 450 for a long period and if someone goes off the front it is superhuman?
There's an upper limit on what can be achieved without PEDs that can be derived very easily. Powermeters and maths remove the romance of the old era.
One of the issues in many sports is that human limits are being reached through effective sports science, so there is a certain dullness: a cluster near the limit of possibility.
This tour has been dull (I really like BW & am in awe of the achievement, but it hasn't been all that exciting to watch), but with better parcours and a different bunch of riders, it needn't be terminal.
So all the GC candidates cannot ride more than Rogers (isnt this guy a past doper anyway) or else they are doping. When Rogers isnt the best.
And isnt a TT all about numbers, watts, power etc. So how can Wiggins put insane time into others and it be normal (yes I consider it totally fine)?!
Or how can a guy go off the front and hold off a charging peloton? Must take an insane amount of power...so he must be doping?!
But a rider putting a minute or so into them on the mountains must mean he is doping?Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Tom BB wrote:Reckon TJ will ever win a GT?
Hej just won the Giro. Yeah I reckon he has it in him.
It's all a bit scary now for me for the future with what this sport could develop into if the GTs will come down to what we are beginning to witness.
the race will need to develop into breaking the elastic by long distance attacks not necessarily on the climbs and having teams with more than one GC option"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I think TJ will fall just short unless there is a very TT freindly parcours in a few years time.
I know what you're saying with how dull the GT's have been thus far-the Vuelta should be good though and the 100th Tour next year with Bertie v Andy v Froome/Wiggo should be fun and will probably be brutal!
We're due an exciting Paris Roubaix soon too aren't we!0 -
Except for the fact that Shrek would attack and not gain much of a margin as he would get reeled in as he is pretty crap tt'ing ( not sure how he managed to do that long solo break last year, maybe brother frank lent him some gear ) and he would loose bucket loads of time in any TT.dougzz wrote:Yeah, but it's about being able to put out the wattage for the right amount of time, and that's what Sky and Brad were able to do. I suspect that Schleck and Contador could have unhinged the carefully written Sky plan, at least made them go to plan B. I'm so glad Brad won, but I hope next year's Tour has a lot less TTing. I think it wasn't only Sky that shut the race down, before Brad took Yellow, Cancellara had such a small margin that RSNT didn't let any break go, they dangled them at 4 minutes, and then closed it down in the last 20K. Then Sky took over and the whole race was controlled from beginning to end. It would have been more exciting if a big break had gone early, and put a minor contender in Yellow, like with Voeckler last year, and Nocintini a couple of year's ago. Just the presence of a serious climbing contender would have made the race different. Still loved it, Brad will win, and it was a very enjoyable 3 weeks for me, even if it wasn't the greatest GT ever.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Wiggins absolutely crushed his opposition. He did it in the Time Trials predominantly. This is 100x more boring than someone crushing them in the mountains - I am not sure how so many of you cannot see this; I guess it is down to the fact he is British.
I'd find it more boring if he clung on, limited his losses, and then made them up in the time trial. As it is, he built his lead before going into the proper mountains. The onus was on his rivals to take the race to him, but they couldn't even claw back the two minutes he already had on them before today. I really don't blame him for sitting around and waiting to shut them down. It just so happens that they weren't even good enough to put him under any real pressure. If he didn't show us his limits in the mountains, it's hard to hold it against him.0 -
Just back to hotel in Paris after day in Bonneval and Chartres. Talk about welling up. That short 400metres I saw from Wiggo in the last 1k is up there with a Zinedane goal in a champions league final, a Lords test match, a Hoy World track Champions final, Tigers winning two Heinekens, Scotland beating England and Hampden, you name it, I've been there but that takes some beating. The sight of the yellow skins suit sweeping round the corner. Roll on tomorrow on the Rue Du Rivoli......
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I missed some explanation in attempting not to be too dull. Sky burn folk up on the front of the peleton. Rogers clearly isn't the best, but he can hold 450 watts for a long tine: 90% of what's possible perhaps. If he rode GC, he's maybe make top 20, but can drop top 10 riders easily, then die off. Remember Millar dropping Vino et al in 2009?frenchfighter wrote:So all the GC candidates cannot ride more than Rogers (isnt this guy a past doper anyway) or else they are doping. When Rogers isnt the best.
And isnt a TT all about numbers, watts, power etc. So how can Wiggins put insane time into others and it be normal (yes I consider it totally fine)?!
Or how can a guy go off the front and hold off a charging peloton? Must take an insane amount of power...so he must be doping?!
But a rider putting a minute or so into them on the mountains must mean he is doping?
Yep, TT is all about numbers, as BW attests in the link above.
Bicycle maths is great fun. An outstanding rider can put out 6.1w/kg ( I forget the exact time period for this, but let's say an hour). Uphill is power to weight, on the flat it's power v cda. The best GC rider is the best average between these two given his team and the parcours.
You can deduce what is humanly possible (drug free) uphill & average out. Going beyond he average puts you in the red, which lowers overall average.
Contador could drop anyone uphill & not get caught. Maths & biology says he's doping. As does CAS.
Not-doping future will see a different peleton...0 -
Cyrille Guimard has recently suggested teams of only 7 riders, ... also more mountains overall, and a couple more teams to add more uncertainty to each stage.frenchfighter wrote:...they should reduce the teams to 5 or something.
Given that Guimard was never a mountain man, his opinion perhaps shows how much he feels the parcours this year has gone in the wrong direction.0 -
Looks like he's asleep at the wheel.frenchfighter wrote:-TJ, monster ride today and through the Tour to take 5th.
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