Transfer Madness
Comments
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Alright, calm down people.
Don't want me to wave the padlock do you?
It's an interesting topic, and a problem in the sport, as highlighted by one of the more thoughtful bloggers.0 -
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Some high quality trolling here but it is starting to break up now. 8/10, would have been more if peevishness had not set in so soon
The older I get the faster I was0 -
Quick off the cuff quiz: What is the connection between the photo above and Pro Cycling?Rick Chasey wrote:
Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Quick off the cuff quiz: What is the connection between the photo above and Pro Cycling?Rick Chasey wrote:
Slim-to-nil.
More on topic - why can't teams own riders like clubs own football players?
A genuine question - I'm sure there are reasons why, I just don't know what they are.0 -
ddraver wrote:Not an Xenophobic insult - just an observation....
I have no problem with you being American, I have a problem with the rubbish you re spouting...
If what I am saying is such rubbish, then why don't you have the balls to use facts to try to prove me wrong. You know like I have been doing throughout this thread to the people who are saying stupid stuff. Instead of making assumptions about peoples nationalities and then showing everyone you are a xenophobe.0 -
Whatever dude, I'm like sooooo over you now
@Rick - The biggest difference is that a "team" in cycling is such a transient thing. There is no permant structure as there is in football. Compare what would happen in any cycling team to what is happening with Rangers at the mo, A cycling team would have just disbanded. RSNT is just going to dissappear (probably) next year and nothing will be left, Rangers has a ground (for a few more days), training pitches, a history etc etc.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:Whatever dude, I'm like sooooo over you now
@Rick - The biggest difference is that a "team" in cycling is such a transient thing. There is no permant structure as there is in football. Compare what would happen in any cycling team to what is happening with Rangers at the mo, A cycling team would have just disbanded. RSNT is just going to dissappear (probably) next year and nothing will be left, Rangers has a ground (for a few more days), training pitches, a history etc etc.
I'm not so sure. If a team disbands, they no longer own the riders, right?
I just think a transfer system compensates for the uncertainty. Sure you lose your best rider suddenly, but at least you've got enough out of it to get another good rider - rather than having put all the cash in and then them sodding off.
It also improves the incentives to bring in new riders, rather than sticking to old aged riders with chequered histories.0 -
I don't think it's right, I think it's the current reality....
Where are teams going to find the money to buy riders too? It's bad enough finding sponsors to cover just paying them at the moment, let alone giving another team more money.
Essentially, I suppose, A company would sponser a team to be a moving advert which would be more effective if one of its members won a race, However, a company might sponser a football team in order to get some reflected glory for when the team wins a trophy.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Of course if the current system was changed to make it more like football, where sponsors know they will be sponsoring a team that is in the big races every year for say four years then teams would have the money because sponsors would not be so transient. The main reason sponsors come and go so fast is the nature of the cycling set up where there is no assured stability.0
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A Football Team (eg) is still referred to by it's name too. For example we talk about Team Garmin Sharp or Sky wheras we talk about Man City/Man Utd not Team Etihad or Team AIG
Even in the US where almost everything else is sponored to the max (Budweiser close up cam, Coors Stats generatoer or whatever), it is still very rare to sell shirt space and the teams have their own distinct names - Dallas Cowboys/Toronto Maple Leafs etcWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:A Football Team (eg) is still referred to by it's name too. For example we talk about Team Garmin Sharp or Sky wheras we talk about Man City/Man Utd not Team Etihad or Team AIG
Even in the US where almost everything else is sponored to the max (Budweiser close up cam, Coors Stats generatoer or whatever), it is still very rare to sell shirt space and the teams have their own distinct names - Dallas Cowboys/Toronto Maple Leafs etc
1) This has nothing to do with the point I made.
2) That would increase the value of sponsorship0 -
Do teams not own riders in the same way as football clubs? Also a genuine question. I'd always assumed that they did (hence the supposed mega transfer fee paid by Sky to Garmin) but there wasn't the money in the sport to generally make the paying of transfer fees an attractive proposition.Rick Chasey wrote:More on topic - why can't teams own riders like clubs own football players?
A genuine question - I'm sure there are reasons why, I just don't know what they are.0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Do teams not own riders in the same way as football clubs? Also a genuine question. I'd always assumed that they did (hence the supposed mega transfer fee paid by Sky to Garmin) but there wasn't the money in the sport to generally make the paying of transfer fees an attractive proposition.Rick Chasey wrote:More on topic - why can't teams own riders like clubs own football players?
A genuine question - I'm sure there are reasons why, I just don't know what they are.
I think sky bought out Wiggins' remaining contract, rather than paying a transfer fee.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Quick off the cuff quiz: What is the connection between the photo above and Pro Cycling?Rick Chasey wrote:
Its Rick Dad?It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Do teams not own riders in the same way as football clubs? Also a genuine question. I'd always assumed that they did (hence the supposed mega transfer fee paid by Sky to Garmin) but there wasn't the money in the sport to generally make the paying of transfer fees an attractive proposition.Rick Chasey wrote:More on topic - why can't teams own riders like clubs own football players?
A genuine question - I'm sure there are reasons why, I just don't know what they are.
I think sky bought out Wiggins' remaining contract, rather than paying a transfer fee.
What's the difference? When a player's contract expires (subject to some rules for under 23 year olds) the player can move on a free transfer. Isn't that effectively the same?0 -
Timoid. wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Quick off the cuff quiz: What is the connection between the photo above and Pro Cycling?Rick Chasey wrote:
Its Rick Dad?
You are so banned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU4p5mRm8dU0 -
DeadCalm wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Do teams not own riders in the same way as football clubs? Also a genuine question. I'd always assumed that they did (hence the supposed mega transfer fee paid by Sky to Garmin) but there wasn't the money in the sport to generally make the paying of transfer fees an attractive proposition.Rick Chasey wrote:More on topic - why can't teams own riders like clubs own football players?
A genuine question - I'm sure there are reasons why, I just don't know what they are.
I think sky bought out Wiggins' remaining contract, rather than paying a transfer fee.
What's the difference? When a player's contract expires (subject to some rules for under 23 year olds) the player can move on a free transfer. Isn't that effectively the same?
The fee is considerably more than the contract being bought out (usually) and the club gets the say before the player does. So, say I have 2 years left at Man City and I desperately want to leave to go to Barcelona, City would have to agree to sell me to Barca. If they didn't, I'd have to wait till my contract expire before I could sign.0 -
Can you just 'buy out' a contract though? In any walk of life (military aside)? Surely you just resign. What stops this happening in sports is the registration rules. What a football team is technically doing is buying the registration - nothing to do with the contract, which is then annulled by mutual consent.Twitter: @RichN950
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Sorry if I'm being dense (and Lord knows I often am) but I still don't see the difference. Garmin didn't have to release Wiggins from his deal did they? And it's up to them to negotiate whatever buy out fee they can get away with. The fact that it's generally not mega-bucks is down to the money that is is cycling isn't it?Rick Chasey wrote:The fee is considerably more than the contract being bought out (usually) and the club gets the say before the player does. So, say I have 2 years left at Man City and I desperately want to leave to go to Barcelona, City would have to agree to sell me to Barca. If they didn't, I'd have to wait till my contract expire before I could sign.0 -
RichN95 wrote:Can you just 'buy out' a contract though? In any walk of life (military aside)? Surely you just resign. What stops this happening in sports is the registration rules.
How many other professions have contracts like sports contracts?
How often does Nigel Business Guy sign a four year deal with incentives that can be terminated at any moment with no reason needed (or terminated but must be paid) and can be sent to another company without his consent?0 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Sorry if I'm being dense (and Lord knows I often am) but I still don't see the difference. Garmin didn't have to release Wiggins from his deal did they? And it's up to them to negotiate whatever buy out fee they can get away with. The fact that it's generally not mega-bucks is down to the money that is is cycling isn't it?Rick Chasey wrote:The fee is considerably more than the contract being bought out (usually) and the club gets the say before the player does. So, say I have 2 years left at Man City and I desperately want to leave to go to Barcelona, City would have to agree to sell me to Barca. If they didn't, I'd have to wait till my contract expire before I could sign.
I think if Wiggins wants to go he's gone, if he can buy out the contract.
In football, the club needs to agree to that first.0 -
Wow, it's not as simple as that but it looks like you're effectively right. A spot of googling turned this up.Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Sorry if I'm being dense (and Lord knows I often am) but I still don't see the difference. Garmin didn't have to release Wiggins from his deal did they? And it's up to them to negotiate whatever buy out fee they can get away with. The fact that it's generally not mega-bucks is down to the money that is is cycling isn't it?Rick Chasey wrote:The fee is considerably more than the contract being bought out (usually) and the club gets the say before the player does. So, say I have 2 years left at Man City and I desperately want to leave to go to Barcelona, City would have to agree to sell me to Barca. If they didn't, I'd have to wait till my contract expire before I could sign.
I think if Wiggins wants to go he's gone, if he can buy out the contract.
In football, the club needs to agree to that first.
http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderrepor ... departure/0 -
Employment contracts are pretty much the same same for sports and non-sports. Particularly outside US sports. In US sports no player ever signs for a team - they sign for a franchise of MLB etc.Rundfahrt wrote:RichN95 wrote:Can you just 'buy out' a contract though? In any walk of life (military aside)? Surely you just resign. What stops this happening in sports is the registration rules.
How many other professions have contracts like sports contracts?
How often does Nigel Business Guy sign a four year deal with incentives that can be terminated at any moment with no reason needed (or terminated but must be paid) and can be sent to another company without his consent?Twitter: @RichN950 -
DeadCalm wrote:
Wow, it's not as simple as that but it looks like you're effectively right. A spot of googling turned this up.Rick Chasey wrote:DeadCalm wrote:
Sorry if I'm being dense (and Lord knows I often am) but I still don't see the difference. Garmin didn't have to release Wiggins from his deal did they? And it's up to them to negotiate whatever buy out fee they can get away with. The fact that it's generally not mega-bucks is down to the money that is is cycling isn't it?Rick Chasey wrote:The fee is considerably more than the contract being bought out (usually) and the club gets the say before the player does. So, say I have 2 years left at Man City and I desperately want to leave to go to Barcelona, City would have to agree to sell me to Barca. If they didn't, I'd have to wait till my contract expire before I could sign.
I think if Wiggins wants to go he's gone, if he can buy out the contract.
In football, the club needs to agree to that first.
http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderrepor ... departure/
Yeah. It seems football has a 'recognised transfer system' whatever that means.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Employment contracts are pretty much the same same for sports and non-sports. Particularly outside US sports. In US sports no player ever signs for a team - they sign for a franchise of MLB etc.Rundfahrt wrote:RichN95 wrote:Can you just 'buy out' a contract though? In any walk of life (military aside)? Surely you just resign. What stops this happening in sports is the registration rules.
How many other professions have contracts like sports contracts?
How often does Nigel Business Guy sign a four year deal with incentives that can be terminated at any moment with no reason needed (or terminated but must be paid) and can be sent to another company without his consent?
Are you trying to tell me that your average business person has a contract lie the one I described above?
It's kind of funny how you and the xenophobe seem to focus on America so much.0 -
Aren't the big four American sports different again from soccer, in that you generally get trades, as opposed to transfers.
Think what Sky did when they came into the sport with the transfers, contributed to them being one of the less well liked teams.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
FFS, it's not all about you Rundfhart - this is the Bike Radar forum, not the Rundfahrt forum. I wasn t answering your point, I don't really care - FWIW, I thought we were in agreement for a bit.
I assume I would be the Xenophobe, the guy living in a foreign country, working for a foreign company, working with international clients on a daily basis (5 different nationalities this week if you re interested).
Anyway, back on topic
Applying transfer fees to cycling would require a major reformation in how it is run, whereas the current window, points system and the rest is just a bit of rule writing in Lausanne Was nt the breakaway league (remember that?) seeking to move along those lines? As in to have distinct teams and riders, with a firm base which were then sponsored, rather than the sponsor effectively being the teamWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I focus on America in that reply because your understanding of sports contracts seems to be entirely based on Big 4 US sports. The contract you described only exists in those sports due to the closed shop franchise business model. You say a player can be 'sent to another company without his constent' - only in US sports can they as they are technically employees of MLB and not the Yankees, for example. Nobody in football (soccer), rugby, cricket or cycling is ever transferred without their consent.Rundfahrt wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Employment contracts are pretty much the same same for sports and non-sports. Particularly outside US sports. In US sports no player ever signs for a team - they sign for a franchise of MLB etc.Rundfahrt wrote:RichN95 wrote:Can you just 'buy out' a contract though? In any walk of life (military aside)? Surely you just resign. What stops this happening in sports is the registration rules.
How many other professions have contracts like sports contracts?
How often does Nigel Business Guy sign a four year deal with incentives that can be terminated at any moment with no reason needed (or terminated but must be paid) and can be sent to another company without his consent?
Are you trying to tell me that your average business person has a contract lie the one I described above?
It's kind of funny how you and the xenophobe seem to focus on America so much.Twitter: @RichN950
