Transfer Madness

Rundfahrt

Originally this thread was going to be only the complaint I am about to write about, but then I decided it could be dual purpose, so post transfers here as you hear them, preferably with links. On to my complaint!

I truly think that cycling needs to change it's transfer rules and have a set date around or after the last ProTour race as the official date people can sign. It's silly to have riders signing for another team while they are racing the Tour and while nearly half the season is left. The only other sport that I can think of that does this is F1 and it's not as bad. Have a signing date and a talking date and give penalties to teams who violate it. Yes I know proving violations can be difficult, but the current system is awful.

Rule74Please

THEY DO AUGUST 1

rubertoe

Rule74Please wrote:

THEY DO AUGUST 1

Also towards the end of the year at early 2013 training camps (Nov/Dec), you will see riders say of Radioshack- Nissan- Trek (am thinking Fuglsang here) riding in their RNT Kit at say a Saxo Bank training camp. Normally riders are contracted from 1st Jan so prior to this date they will be wearing their previous team Kit.

Rundfahrt

Rule74Please wrote:

THEY DO AUGUST 1

1) No need to shout.

2) Why do we have lists of riders who are already committed to another team the next season start coming out late in the Tour? Because the August 1 date means nothing.

afx237vi

Rundfahrt wrote:

Rule74Please wrote:

THEY DO AUGUST 1

1) No need to shout.

2) Why do we have lists of riders who are already committed to another team the next season start coming out late in the Tour? Because the August 1 date means nothing.

Well what makes you think a new date or a new bunch of unenforceable rules would mean anything?

thamacdaddy

The implication of them signing or talking about before that being what? That they somehow don't ride for that team anymore?

If it has got to a point a rider has thought about signing for someone else before the tour then making them go through it unresolved is even worse for performance I would have thought? But then again each rider maybe different some might naturally want to wait until afterwards for any number of reasons.

Still professionals, still have everything to gain for performing no matter what their team might be the next year or when they do a deal, I don't see the big issue with it really.

Rundfahrt

afx237vi- The point is that you actually try and enforce it. They seem to be able to do it in most other sports.

Thamacdaddy- Look at the Hushovd situation last year. That was terrible and could have been prevented if signings and talks were not allowed (except to re-up) until say October 1. The other part is how crappy it looks to the fans. Imagine if in the middle of the season a starter for Chelsea or Arsenal or Wigan or Bournemouth or anyone let it leak that he had already signed for another club in the same league. Fans would go nuts.


I guess my thing is that while I can see a ton of negatives to the current system I have yet to see one positive.

RichN95.

Rundfahrt wrote:

. The other part is how crappy it looks to the fans. Imagine if in the middle of the season a starter for Chelsea or Arsenal or Wigan or Bournemouth or anyone let it leak that he had already signed for another club in the same league. Fans would go nuts.

It's fairly common for it to be well known amongst fans that a player's contract is running out at the end of the season and he'll be going elsewhere (even if exactly where is unknown). Players are allowed to sign pre-contracts in the last six months of their contract. Als players are always rumoured to be going elsewhere. Fabregas was rumoured to being going to Barcelona for most of his Arsenal career.

Rundfahrt wrote:

I guess my thing is that while I can see a ton of negatives to the current system I have yet to see one positive.

The advantage of the current system is that it gives everyone plenty of time to get everything sort out. Now let's take you rules of no offers before October 1st and apply it to Nibali. On that date he gets three multi-million Euro offers - Liquigas, Astana and BMC. But this contract will cover his prime years, so it's important to get it right. The choice can't be rushed. He needs to talk to them, consider all the options, see what offers they can put in on support riders. By the time he's made his decision November is upon us and two of the teams' plans are back to square one and the best alternatives have already made plans. The riders are on holiday and spread all over the world, agents are frantically logging up the air miles and the clock is ticking to the next season and they still don't know if they've got a ProTour licence for next season (as that decision will have to be pushed back), so the financing isn't fully in place. It's all an unnecessary rush and bother.

At the Tour, 95% of people who matter are there. It's a convenient time for everyone have to chats and make deals.

And you'll never be able to stop a group of 200 riders talking to each other - try enforcing that.

Rundfahrt

RichN95 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

. The other part is how crappy it looks to the fans. Imagine if in the middle of the season a starter for Chelsea or Arsenal or Wigan or Bournemouth or anyone let it leak that he had already signed for another club in the same league. Fans would go nuts.

It's fairly common for it to be well known amongst fans that a player's contract is running out at the end of the season and he'll be going elsewhere (even if exactly where is unknown). Players are allowed to sign pre-contracts in the last six months of their contract. Als players are always rumoured to be going elsewhere. Fabregas was rumoured to being going to Barcelona for most of his Arsenal career.

I understand the "I don't plan on resigning" and the rumors, but actually coming to an agreement and making it public is asinine.

Rundfahrt wrote:

I guess my thing is that while I can see a ton of negatives to the current system I have yet to see one positive.

The advantage of the current system is that it gives everyone plenty of time to get everything sort out. Now let's take you rules of no offers before October 1st and apply it to Nibali. On that date he gets three multi-million Euro offers - Liquigas, Astana and BMC. But this contract will cover his prime years, so it's important to get it right. The choice can't be rushed. He needs to talk to them, consider all the options, see what offers they can put in on support riders. By the time he's made his decision November is upon us and two of the teams' plans are back to square one and the best alternatives have already made plans. The riders are on holiday and spread all over the world, agents are frantically logging up the air miles and the clock is ticking to the next season and they still don't know if they've got a ProTour licence for next season (as that decision will have to be pushed back), so the financing isn't fully in place. It's all an unnecessary rush and bother.

At the Tour, 95% of people who matter are there. It's a convenient time for everyone have to chats and make deals.

And you'll never be able to stop a group of 200 riders talking to each other - try enforcing that.

1) Huge difference between riders talking to each other and DS having meetings with riders on other teams to discuss signing for next year.

2) Why does every other sport work with signings only happening in the off season? I don's see Barcelona struggling to sign players? The players they want are playing in international tournaments, going on holidays, etc.

3) When it comes to ProTour license, the way that is done is asinine in itself. Imagine any other sport being run like that. "Sorry Arsenal, you lost your top two scorers so you don't have enough points to be in the Premier League. Enjoy the Championship.

Sorry, I still have not seen one good reason.

RichN95.

Rundfahrt wrote:

1) Huge difference between riders talking to each other and DS having meetings with riders on other teams to discuss signing for next year.

There isn't really. The DS just uses a rider to pass on messages to another rider. When Slipstream was set up, Jon Vaughters used David Millar as a recruitment agent during races.
And the DSs talk to agents first not riders. And those agents may represent current riders on the team as well as the wanted riders. How do you prevent that meeting?

Rundfahrt wrote:

2) Why does every other sport work with signings only happening in the off season? I don's see Barcelona struggling to sign players? The players they want are playing in international tournaments, going on holidays, etc.

The actual signings in those sports may only happen at certain times, but the talking and offers happen all year round. Usually legally, but also illegally. Deals are being made all year round

Rundfahrt wrote:

3) When it comes to ProTour license, the way that is done is asinine in itself. Imagine any other sport being run like that. "Sorry Arsenal, you lost your top two scorers so you don't have enough points to be in the Premier League. Enjoy the Championship.

Agreed. But that's a different matter.

Apart from giving everyone plenty of time to do their business and not causing a ridiculous mad scramble you want to see, it's probably also illegal to deny a worker negotiating a new contract sufficient time from the expiry of his old one.

And completely unenforcable rules are a waste of everyone's time.

Rundfahrt

RichN95 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

1) Huge difference between riders talking to each other and DS having meetings with riders on other teams to discuss signing for next year.

There isn't really. The DS just uses a rider to pass on messages to another rider. When Slipstream was set up, Jon Vaughters used David Millar as a recruitment agent during races.
And the DSs talk to agents first not riders. And those agents may represent current riders on the team as well as the wanted riders. How do you prevent that meeting?

Riders don't negotiate on behalf of the DS, they simply talk up the team. How do they prevent agents from talking contracts in other sports? I am sorry but cycling is not some sport that is so beyond every other sport.

Rundfahrt wrote:

2) Why does every other sport work with signings only happening in the off season? I don's see Barcelona struggling to sign players? The players they want are playing in international tournaments, going on holidays, etc.

The actual signings in those sports may only happen at certain times, but the talking and offers happen all year round. Usually legally, but also illegally. Deals are being made all year round

Pretty much every pro sport has rules about when talks can occur and it is not year round.

Rundfahrt wrote:

3) When it comes to ProTour license, the way that is done is asinine in itself. Imagine any other sport being run like that. "Sorry Arsenal, you lost your top two scorers so you don't have enough points to be in the Premier League. Enjoy the Championship.

Agreed. But that's a different matter.

Apart from giving everyone plenty of time to do their business and not causing a ridiculous mad scramble you want to see, it's probably also illegal to deny a worker negotiating a new contract sufficient time from the expiry of his old one.

If it is illegal then why does it occur in every other sport.

And completely unenforcable rules are a waste of everyone's time.

Tough to enforce but not completely unenforceable, especially in this day of 24 hour media and social media. If we can hear that a rider is thinking of leaving a team in May, do you really think the UCI can't hear that as well or that someone came to an agreement during the Tour?!?!?!

Honestly, this reminds me of the people who argue against the use of golden goal, all about tradition so they come up with illogical reasoning (i.e. both teams deserve a chance to score), claim that it can't work and argue negatively, never giving an actual positive reason why the current system is good.

I am still waiting for one positive reason why the current system is goof

RichN95.

Rundfahrt wrote:

Riders don't negotiate on behalf of the DS, they simply talk up the team. How do they prevent agents from talking contracts in other sports? I am sorry but cycling is not some sport that is so beyond every other sport.

Good god, are you really this naive? Riders can communicate fairly substantial facts to other riders. Agents in other sports aren't prevented from talking contracts - they do it all the time. Agents aren't going to stick to your rules, because they're not subject to them. Even my hockey club is looking to recruit players all year round - and we're an amateur sport (with rules about when we can register players, but not when we can talk to them).

Rundfahrt wrote:

Pretty much every pro sport has rules about when talks can occur and it is not year round.

They have rules but they're not nearly as draconian as your ideas. In football, talks can take place anytime if all interested parties consent - it's just when the move can be made that's restricted. Most sports are the same.[/quote]

Rundfahrt wrote:

If it is illegal then why does it occur in every other sport.

It doesn't.
For example, footballers with six months left on their contract can sign pre-contract agreements with other clubs
Show me an example of a sport which doesn't allow a sportsmen to talk about a deal until the last 3 months of his current contract.

Rundfahrt wrote:

Tough to enforce but not completely unenforceable, especially in this day of 24 hour media and social media. If we can hear that a rider is thinking of leaving a team in May, do you really think the UCI can't hear that as well or that someone came to an agreement during the Tour?!?!?!

So do you want to make thinking about leaving a team an offence now? You may hear some rumours, but you don't hear most. And under you scheme, you wouldn't hear any as deals would be more hush-hush.
Without illegal phone taps, e-mail hacking and bugging, how do you propose conversation are investigated by the UCI?

Rundfahrt wrote:

I am still waiting for one positive reason why the current system is goof

That's because you have some idealistic nonsense stuck in your head. The reasons are:
1. It's most convenient for the teams and riders alike
2. It adheres to probable employment law
3. Any other system is unenforcable.

Now what is so great about your system. Why cause panic and uncertainty for people for whom this is their living due to some idealistic impractical idea which appears to have no benefits for anyone?

Rundfahrt

RichN95 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

Riders don't negotiate on behalf of the DS, they simply talk up the team. How do they prevent agents from talking contracts in other sports? I am sorry but cycling is not some sport that is so beyond every other sport.

Good god, are you really this naive? Riders can communicate fairly substantial facts to other riders. Agents in other sports aren't prevented from talking contracts - they do it all the time. Agents aren't going to stick to your rules, because they're not subject to them. Even my hockey club is looking to recruit players all year round - and we're an amateur sport (with rules about when we can register players, but not when we can talk to them).

Naive? Because I am smart enough to know that riders don't talk contracts? Heck, you even talked about the agents doing that work. Agents are prevented from contract talks with other teams in most sports. I would say that you need to stop ignoring the sports that don't suit your argument (most of the pro sports in the world) but then you start comparing pro sport to your little amateur hockey club and I know that you can't do that.

Rundfahrt wrote:

Pretty much every pro sport has rules about when talks can occur and it is not year round.

They have rules but they're not nearly as draconian as your ideas. In football, talks can take place anytime if all interested parties consent - it's just when the move can be made that's restricted. Most sports are the same.

Key phrase: "if all parties consent." That phrase shows that what happens in cycling does not happen elsewhere, namely a rider negotiating with a new team without anyone else knowing about it.

Rundfahrt wrote:

If it is illegal then why does it occur in every other sport.

It doesn't.
For example, footballers with six months left on their contract can sign pre-contract agreements with other clubs
Show me an example of a sport which doesn't allow a sportsmen to talk about a deal until the last 3 months of his current contract.

Show you an example? MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL, KHL all have specific dates IRB, like FIFA requires consent by all parties. IN other words, I just named four that don't allow any talks and two that allow it but only if the current team gives consent. None allow people to talk behind their teams back at any time.

Rundfahrt wrote:

Tough to enforce but not completely unenforceable, especially in this day of 24 hour media and social media. If we can hear that a rider is thinking of leaving a team in May, do you really think the UCI can't hear that as well or that someone came to an agreement during the Tour?!?!?!

So do you want to make thinking about leaving a team an offence now? You may hear some rumours, but you don't hear most. And under you scheme, you wouldn't hear any as deals would be more hush-hush.
Without illegal phone taps, e-mail hacking and bugging, how do you propose conversation are investigated by the UCI?

1) Where did I say penalize someone for thinking of leaving? I was very obviously talking about someone entering talks. That was pretty disingenuous on your part.
2) The rumors get out all the time, do you really think they would just suddenly stop? If you do then you are the naive one here.
3) Once again: How does almost every other pro sport do it?

Rundfahrt wrote:

I am still waiting for one positive reason why the current system is goof

That's because you have some idealistic nonsense stuck in your head. The reasons are:
1. It's most convenient for the teams and riders alike
2. It adheres to probable employment law
3. Any other system is unenforcable.

1) Why is it so convenient? Because they have extra time? That's great but, especially with the UCI points moving with the rider, it's very inconvenient to have a rider earning points for a rival team while riding with you. It's inconvenient to have a rider in a race with your team, especially near the end of the season, and be in a position where he could help his new teammate win a race.
2) Yet, what I am talking about happens all the time and even you admit the only way it is allowed is if everyone gives consent.
3) Yet, as you conveniently keep ignoring, it is enforced in most of the pro sports.

Now what is so great about your system. Why cause panic and uncertainty for people for whom this is their living due to some idealistic impractical idea which appears to have no benefits for anyone?[/quote]

It doesn't cause any panic. Show me one example of panic in the leagues that do things the way I think it should be done. Show me examples in any of the leagues I mentioned above. If anything it causes less panic, because teams have time to prepare for the possibility of signings and losing people and it cause teams to sign their own people earlier instead of waiting.

I am sorry, but in this issue, you (someone who I think is a pretty level-headed person) are being irrational and trying to cling to tradition any way possible. Like I already said, you remind me of the people who argue against the golden goal.

RichN95.

Rundfahrt wrote:

3) Yet, as you conveniently keep ignoring, it is enforced in most of the pro sports.

This is your problem. You are clearly a little wet behind the ears and think they are enforced in other sports. They aren't. Not even a little bit. There's even a phrase for it - 'tapping up'.

Put yourself in one of these two scenarios:
1. A rider with a wife, two kids, a third on the way, a mortgage, no qualifications and an uncertain future at your current team.
2. A team looking for a new sponsor, but your Pro Tour licence is in doubt as you don't have the points.

In either of those situations would you sit around not making phone calls to agents because it's 'not allowed'. The idea that you can prevent people talking to each other is absurd. This isn't PCM here - it's people's actual careers at stake.

You have provided no benefits for your idea beyond assuaging your faux indignation.

The points system is horribly flawed - on that we both agree - and that is the source at the root of your indignation. But the transfer system is fine. It's no different than any other job. And never forget that this is their job.

andy_wrx

I think INRNG might help...

http://inrng.com/2012/05/cycling-transfer-season/

Anonymous

Rundfahrt, you're incorrect when referencing other sports. As a first example of this, a footballer can sign for another team whenever he wants. Any rules forbidding this would clearly be a restraint of trade.

As Rich says, these are people's jobs and careers you're trying to control, they don't do it just for our pleasure!

DeadCalm

Rundfahrt wrote:

Show you an example? MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL, KHL all have specific dates

No idea what the KHL is, but seriously, the rest are not sports. Baseball may be a sport (we call it rounders over here), Ice hockey may be a sport (although it seems more like an excuse for a punch up), basketball may be a sport (albeit slightly more tedious to watch than competitive fly fishing) and even American Football could conceivably be considered to be a sport although it seems to be more of a brief interruption to an insanely long ad break, but all those ridiculous 3 letter thingummies are NOT sports. They are businesses motivated by making a profit for themselves pure and simple.

Rundfahrt

RichN95 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

3) Yet, as you conveniently keep ignoring, it is enforced in most of the pro sports.

This is your problem. You are clearly a little wet behind the ears and think they are enforced in other sports. They aren't. Not even a little bit. There's even a phrase for it - 'tapping up'.

You just tried to use "tapping up" as poof that you are correct when teams get in trouble all the time for doing this. Now should I be like you and insult you?

Put yourself in one of these two scenarios:
1. A rider with a wife, two kids, a third on the way, a mortgage, no qualifications and an uncertain future at your current team.
2. A team looking for a new sponsor, but your Pro Tour licence is in doubt as you don't have the points.

In either of those situations would you sit around not making phone calls to agents because it's 'not allowed'. The idea that you can prevent people talking to each other is absurd. This isn't PCM here - it's people's actual careers at stake.

Yes, I would not be making calls to agents. You see I have the morals and ethics to do something called obeying the rules. Apparently that is where we differ. Using your absurd version of reality Wiggins should dope, would it be absurd to tell someone what they can put in their body. How about take a car for part of the course, it's absurd to tell someone they can't drive. I am starting to think you are just taking the piss, in other threads you don't come off as being this unintelligent (wow, I can toss insults just like you!)

You have provided no benefits for your idea beyond assuaging your faux indignation.

No, I have, you just keep holding your ears and closing your eyes like a child who doesn't want to hear anything they don't like.

The points system is horribly flawed - on that we both agree - and that is the source at the root of your indignation. But the transfer system is fine. It's no different than any other job. And never forget that this is their job.

No, the points system is not the root of my "indignation."Perhaps if you tried to actually have a two way discussion instead of just saying what you want and ignoring what you don't like you might have figured that out.

Yes, it's their job and just like every other job in the sports industry it has rules that are different then the average joe. That's a pretty simply concept, even you should be able to grasp it.

Rundfahrt

FlipFlopper wrote:

Rundfahrt, you're incorrect when referencing other sports. As a first example of this, a footballer can sign for another team whenever he wants. Any rules forbidding this would clearly be a restraint of trade.

As Rich says, these are people's jobs and careers you're trying to control, they don't do it just for our pleasure!

If that is the case then why do FIFA rules only allow a player to sign with another team during the time they are contracted to another team only when everyone gives consent?

Rundfahrt

DeadCalm wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

Show you an example? MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL, KHL all have specific dates

No idea what the KHL is, but seriously, the rest are not sports. Baseball may be a sport (we call it rounders over here), Ice hockey may be a sport (although it seems more like an excuse for a punch up), basketball may be a sport (albeit slightly more tedious to watch than competitive fly fishing) and even American Football could conceivably be considered to be a sport although it seems to be more of a brief interruption to an insanely long ad break, but all those ridiculous 3 letter thingummies are NOT sports. They are businesses motivated by making a profit for themselves pure and simple.

I was going to respond, but then I got through your whole post and realized it was just childish excrement.

DeadCalm

Rundfahrt wrote:

If that is the case then why do FIFA rules only allow a player to sign with another team during the time they are contracted to another team only when everyone gives consent?

As has been pointed out countless times on this thread, they don't. A player is able to enter a pre-contract agreement with another club at any time during the last 6 months of his contract.

DeadCalm

Rundfahrt wrote:

I was going to respond, but then I got through your whole post and realized it was just childish excrement.

I was going to reply in kind but I'm an adult and so will not rise to your bait and will refrain from the kindergarten name calling. Instead I will simply point out in a more straightforward manner that you are confusing businesses (NHL, NBA, etc) with sports (ice hockey, basketball, etc)

Rundfahrt

DeadCalm wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

If that is the case then why do FIFA rules only allow a player to sign with another team during the time they are contracted to another team only when everyone gives consent?

As has been pointed out countless times on this thread, they don't. A player is able to enter a pre-contract agreement with another club at any time during the last 6 months of his contract.

Perhaps you should do some research since you clearly don't know the FIFA rules. Or, you could have paid attention to the fact that Rich was the one who pointed it when he tried to use it against my stance.

Rundfahrt

DeadCalm wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

I was going to respond, but then I got through your whole post and realized it was just childish excrement.

I was going to reply in kind but I'm an adult and so will not rise to your bait and will refrain from the kindergarten name calling. Instead I will simply point out in a more straightforward manner that you are confusing businesses (NHL, NBA, etc) with sports (ice hockey, basketball, etc)

We are talking about the business of sport, you know like the ProTour and the Premier League and those leagues I mentioned. Since they and the world governing bodies are the ones that make the rules.

richard wants a baum

What a non issue, can you tell me one race that has been effected from some rider that hasn't chased someone done for a win and then ended up on that team? I can't think of any? The real issue with the end of year is the ridiculous timing of the WT license, how some teams manage to convince Sponsors and Riders to actually commit when everything is already so undecided is a miracle, at least at this stage they can say to the sponsors "Look we have signed this Rider". You would have it so that by November at the earliest they could say to a sponsor "We have a WT license and we have just signed this rider " , and if that sponsor pulls out they have a month to find another one at Christmas time which im guessing isn't the best month for chasing done company's about Sponsorship. The process is already stupidly difficult the UCI should be clearing the road blocks not putting more up.

rick_chasey

In theory, they could let teams 'own' a rider, so if a rider breaks 4 year contract two years in, say, the new team would have to not just buy out the contract but agree a transfer fee.

Problem is, in practice, a rider can help another team ride without having to necessarily be on their team...

And, unlike football clubs, cycling teams are a lot more transient, since they're owned by a sponsor, rather than a club.

andy_wrx

OK, read INRNG again yesterday
http://inrng.com/2012/06/riders-blocked-from-racing/

Fuglsang is intending to leave RSNT and move to Saxo-Tinkoff next year.
RSNT thus have dropped him from the Tour squad and are going to 'rest' him for the rest of the year.
Because any ProTour points he wins this year will go across with him to Saxo, perhaps meaning that if it comes to it next year Saxo might get a ProTour licence at the expense of RNT (personally can't see RNT existing at the end of the year, but anyway)
So they have a rider sitting idle, still on the payroll, and the sponsors aren't exactly getting vfm from that are they ?

ddraver

Wow, between Rundfahrt and Cycling2580, US reputation is really taking a pasting here!! If there are any US Lurkers here you need to come out of the woodwork and stand up for your countries brain power!

Rundfahrt

richard wants a baum wrote:

What a non issue, can you tell me one race that has been effected from some rider that hasn't chased someone done for a win and then ended up on that team? I can't think of any? The real issue with the end of year is the ridiculous timing of the WT license, how some teams manage to convince Sponsors and Riders to actually commit when everything is already so undecided is a miracle, at least at this stage they can say to the sponsors "Look we have signed this Rider". You would have it so that by November at the earliest they could say to a sponsor "We have a WT license and we have just signed this rider " , and if that sponsor pulls out they have a month to find another one at Christmas time which im guessing isn't the best month for chasing done company's about Sponsorship. The process is already stupidly difficult the UCI should be clearing the road blocks not putting more up.

1) It appears Fuglsang will be resting most, if not all, of the year due to his making it public he will leave RNT.

2) Hushovd being kept out of the 2011 Vuelta after signing for BMC

3) The issue with sponsors is not about when you can sign people, it's about the way the ProTour is run. If it was run correctly this would not be an issue.

4) The process is difficult? How is it difficult? How would this make it any more difficult. Honestly you guys are stuck on tradition that you refuse to see the positives of doing what almost every other sport does.

Rundfahrt

ddraver wrote:

Wow, between Rundfahrt and Cycling2580, US reputation is really taking a pasting here!! If there are any US Lurkers here you need to come out of the woodwork and stand up for your countries brain power!

It sure takes a lot of brainpower to post xenophobic insults now doesn't it. :roll:

ddraver

Not an Xenophobic insult - just an observation....

I have no problem with you being American, I have a problem with the rubbish you re spouting...