The Annual Phil and Paul Thread!

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Comments

  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    dennisn wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    jimmcdonnell wrote:
    It's just a couple of old(ish) duffers comenting on a sports event in mangled and cliched English, ... :roll:

    It's much more than that. If it was just them then who are these people whose names appear in the long list of credits? Director, producer, cameraman, sound coordinator, and on and on. Those two are simply a cog in a whole lot bigger wheel. They are the talking heads but not much more. They are only as good as what that "long list of credits" feeds them. Left on their own they wouldn't have much of a clue as to what to say next.


    Unless the bigger wheel specialises in the misidentification of riders and bizzare metric to imperial conversion to name but two of their traits I'd say your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

    I'll leave it to you to tell us how two guys sitting in a studio even have a clue about what to say next or what's happening in the race without bunches of outside help(credits). :?

    Ok ok Dennis. Yes there are researchers working for the team. they produce all the wonderful stats and history for the regions and chateaux etc and probably have rider stats for the commentators. However, that information doesn't cue up the continual mis-identification of riders and mis-reading of what is happening in the race. That is a special trait of Phil and Paul themselves. In the hour or so that Imlach and Boardman commentated there wasn't a single mention of the Am-gen tour of California or Levi Leipheimer, perhaps they were going off-piste?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    Dennisn, who writes your scripts? Surely you don't just make up all this guff as you go along. :wink:

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • Gazzetta67
    Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,890
    Has that bawbag sherwin got shares in "Amgen Tour of California".....I dont normally watch ITV4 but being on holiday i have to listen to these 2 prick's talking up all things American. well past their sell by date.
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    Their commentary makes the tour seem further away. There's a sense of "our boys over there in Europe" about the style, that isn't so apparent in ES's. It's as if their approach is that the audience is really only interested in English-speaking riders and doesn't care much about anyone else, as if the nationality is more important than the rider's ability – it's almost racist, in its own way. I think that's partly what makes it sound dated in this internet era when fans can access loads of information themselves and educate themselves (and hence the stage spoiler threads and tweets, as we all talk amongst ourselves about what's going on).
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    jimmcdonnell wrote:
    It's just a couple of old(ish) duffers comenting on a sports event in mangled and cliched English, ... :roll:

    It's much more than that. If it was just them then who are these people whose names appear in the long list of credits? Director, producer, cameraman, sound coordinator, and on and on. Those two are simply a cog in a whole lot bigger wheel. They are the talking heads but not much more. They are only as good as what that "long list of credits" feeds them. Left on their own they wouldn't have much of a clue as to what to say next.


    Unless the bigger wheel specialises in the misidentification of riders and bizzare metric to imperial conversion to name but two of their traits I'd say your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

    I'll leave it to you to tell us how two guys sitting in a studio even have a clue about what to say next or what's happening in the race without bunches of outside help(credits). :?
    Once the race is on, that's largely it, they are on their own, .....

    That's what beng a commentator is. No one tells you what to say, you make it all up as you go along and react to what you see. I'm not really sure what else you think might be happening?

    Now, if they are "on their own" just what are the headsets for? They must be to cancel out all noise??? Surely they're NOT used for anything like communications between then and directors / producers / stat men / cameramen? No, absolutely no one or no things(monitors) are ever involved once the race starts. Yet they somehow know who is in the midst of a big mass of riders when neither you or I can pick out anyone, save maybe the yellow jersey. Psychic's??? Could be. You give these guys way too much credit. They are reading all kinds of info off those monitors and it's their job to make it sound like they are simply talking to you. Someone is telling them who this or that rider, currently on the screen, might be. Both of them are waiting for that little voice in the headset to tell them what they are seeing, what they will be seeing next, who's who, and whether or not he placed 3rd or 4th in some obscure race last year. Otherwise why give credit to all those people at the end of the broadcast??? Why pay them at all? Get rid of them. Phil and Paul need no help.
  • NWLondoner
    NWLondoner Posts: 2,047
    Its a very steep hill.......14% rising to 11%!!!!!

    He's a great bike handler because he's got good cycling skills
  • NWLondoner
    NWLondoner Posts: 2,047
    Also why do they keep mentioning MILES and YARDS FFS

    Road cycling is done in KM!!! It's a lot easier to understand once you get used to KM's
  • kettrinboy
    kettrinboy Posts: 613
    Gary Imlach yesterday......and heres Bradley following Wiggins ummm Cadel Evans.
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
    dennisn wrote:
    ...

    Now, if they are "on their own" just what are the headsets for? They must be to cancel out all noise??? Surely they're NOT used for anything like communications between then and directors / producers / stat men / cameramen? No, absolutely no one or no things(monitors) are ever involved once the race starts. Yet they somehow know who is in the midst of a big mass of riders when neither you or I can pick out anyone, save maybe the yellow jersey. Psychic's??? Could be. You give these guys way too much credit. They are reading all kinds of info off those monitors and it's their job to make it sound like they are simply talking to you. Someone is telling them who this or that rider, currently on the screen, might be. Both of them are waiting for that little voice in the headset to tell them what they are seeing, what they will be seeing next, who's who, and whether or not he placed 3rd or 4th in some obscure race last year. Otherwise why give credit to all those people at the end of the broadcast??? Why pay them at all? Get rid of them. Phil and Paul need no help.

    yes the headphones are partially to reduce outside noise, yes they get info from producers/directors, especially about ad breaks etc. they also listen to race radio to get info on what is happening in the race that is off camera.

    harmon on eurosport tells viewers quite often that he see's what we see on his monitors. the feed comes from the host broadcasters (as it does for itv as well), so they have no control over it. the list of camera men is probably for the studio staff. I don't think they are in communication with the hele or moto cameramen and would probably be of little use even if they were, the moto driver and camera man being too busy listening to their own producers/directors.

    So, no, i doubt very much that any commentator has a script writer putting things up on the screen for them to say. i doubt very much they have a voice in their ears telling them what to say, (though this may account for the dire commentary for P+P).

    Watch eurosport, harmon and kirby will tell you when they have been informed of something by producers or race radio. harmon will tell you that he can recognise some riders by their style but sometimes gets it wrong.

    It's all about familiarity with the people and the sport.
    --
    Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails
  • natrix
    natrix Posts: 1,111
    Monty Zoncolan wrote:
    I punched the air at the first outing of the 'suitcase of courage'!

    You were not alone!! :D
    ~~~~~~Sustrans - Join the Movement~~~~~~
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I enjoyed Harmon roundly mocking the suitcase of courage yesterday.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ilovebigwig
    ilovebigwig Posts: 118
    P&P on top form this weeknd, cannot wait to take my "Chris Froome - the basic details" exams as I am now more than au fait with his upbringing and background thanks to being provided with the same four facts 8458 times.

    I was also very excited yesterday by the prospect of Kessiakoff descending as he is a mountain biker don't you know...oops he's nearly gone over that mountain edge.

    Still baffled as to why they are in a caravan in France watching the TV, I am sure there are some benefits but none come across on their TV performances.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    dennisn wrote:
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    jimmcdonnell wrote:
    It's just a couple of old(ish) duffers comenting on a sports event in mangled and cliched English, ... :roll:

    It's much more than that. If it was just them then who are these people whose names appear in the long list of credits? Director, producer, cameraman, sound coordinator, and on and on. Those two are simply a cog in a whole lot bigger wheel. They are the talking heads but not much more. They are only as good as what that "long list of credits" feeds them. Left on their own they wouldn't have much of a clue as to what to say next.


    Unless the bigger wheel specialises in the misidentification of riders and bizzare metric to imperial conversion to name but two of their traits I'd say your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

    I'll leave it to you to tell us how two guys sitting in a studio even have a clue about what to say next or what's happening in the race without bunches of outside help(credits). :?
    Once the race is on, that's largely it, they are on their own, .....

    That's what beng a commentator is. No one tells you what to say, you make it all up as you go along and react to what you see. I'm not really sure what else you think might be happening?

    Now, if they are "on their own" just what are the headsets for? They must be to cancel out all noise??? Surely they're NOT used for anything like communications between then and directors / producers / stat men / cameramen? No, absolutely no one or no things(monitors) are ever involved once the race starts. Yet they somehow know who is in the midst of a big mass of riders when neither you or I can pick out anyone, save maybe the yellow jersey. Psychic's??? Could be. You give these guys way too much credit. They are reading all kinds of info off those monitors and it's their job to make it sound like they are simply talking to you. Someone is telling them who this or that rider, currently on the screen, might be. Both of them are waiting for that little voice in the headset to tell them what they are seeing, what they will be seeing next, who's who, and whether or not he placed 3rd or 4th in some obscure race last year. Otherwise why give credit to all those people at the end of the broadcast??? Why pay them at all? Get rid of them. Phil and Paul need no help.

    They watch a monitor with the same pictures we see. They have zero contact with the camermen. The feed is provided by a French TV company. The cameramen in the credits are the ones behind the cameras when you see pictures from the studio as are the directors, producers, soundmen, etc. None of the cameramen, producers, directors, soundmen, etc from the coverage of the race itself appear in those credits. Yes they wear headphones, so the producer can produce, 'Going to an ad break in 10 seconds', 'we have a pre-stage interview coming up from Wiggins in 10 seconds'. They are not saying, 'Paul, now might be a good time to chuck in the 'suitcase of courage' comment' or 'Phil, why not start talking about how that rider with a foreign sounding name is actually from the US.'.
    Someone is telling them who this or that rider, currently on the screen, might be. Both of them are waiting for that little voice in the headset to tell them what they are seeing, what they will be seeing next, who's who, and whether or not he placed 3rd or 4th in some obscure race last year.

    You really think this? I watch as much cycling as I can but that's not very much. I watch all of the Tour, and within a few days I start recognising riders within the bunch, whether it's their riding style, their number, a shoe, a small difference in their kit, I can tell them apart. The commentators see these guys week in week out in races, do you not think it possible that they, through familiarity, just recognise them? And if the commentators can't, how could the person in their ear possibly do it? And if they are telling them what they will be seeing next that means they can predict the future, how can they tell them what they will be seeing next when it hasn't happened?
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I enjoyed Harmon roundly mocking the suitcase of courage yesterday.
    I thought there might have been a touch of admiration there too!
  • rdt
    rdt Posts: 869
    Phil on Saturday had La Planche des Belles Filles as "literally a brick wall" outdoing Paul's "the final kilometre - that's 1000 yards".
  • cartesr
    cartesr Posts: 70
    Anybody else sick of Phil and Pauls obsession with the amazing Evans,

    Is the commentary syndicated to Aus?
    I used to do a bit meself you know
  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    cartesr wrote:
    Anybody else sick of Phil and Pauls obsession with the amazing Evans,

    Is the commentary syndicated to Aus?

    I do think there might be a little man crush going on there.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Dennis, of course there are Directors and producers but they don't do what you seem to think. They will tell the commentators when they are going to ad breaks, switching to a recorded or live interview etc. etc. They don't whisper in their ear about what to say. They may well be helping monitor race radio and provide information to the commentators on the make up of a break or who has gone down in a crash. They will also prompt the commentators to mention the daily facts about a chateau that the Tour will have provided to them (in the case of ES either the commentators or a researcher have often found out a bit more than the standard brochure stuff - Carlton Kirby for all his faults is very good at that). However, the actual commenting ad hoc on what is happening on their screens is unscripted out of necessity and the producers won't be telling them what to say as they probably know nothing about cycling. Live commentary is an art form and very difficult. For all the gentle p**s taking of P&P I know I couldn't do it but they have been doing it so long that it has turned very cliche ridden much the same as many other long term commentators such as Murray Walker, John Motson etc.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Slightly off topic but did anyone else catch Sean Kelly taking the mick out of Harmon on Saturday? He came out with Harmon's usual line of "time to pin your colours to the mast" and after Harmon opted for Evans (I think) Kelly went on to list virtually every other rider in the peloton as his possibilities just like Harmon normally does. Not sure Harmon realised what he was doing! Kelly has really started to come out of himself after the early days where he had to be prompted to speak and then only gave one word answers.
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Pross wrote:
    Slightly off topic but did anyone else catch Sean Kelly taking the mick out of Harmon on Saturday? He came out with Harmon's usual line of "time to pin your colours to the mast" and after Harmon opted for Evans (I think) Kelly went on to list virtually every other rider in the peloton as his possibilities just like Harmon normally does. Not sure Harmon realised what he was doing! Kelly has really started to come out of himself after the early days where he had to be prompted to speak and then only gave one word answers.
    I noticed that but think Harmon did too. I really like Kelly, sometimes I do wish he would say a bit more but he does seem to get better year by year and has showed more of a personality this year. I'm reading Roche's book at the moment and don't think I realised how good a rider Kelly was in his day.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I enjoyed the tale about Kelly trying to "do you know who I am?" his way out of trouble yesterday too.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Spiny_Norman
    Spiny_Norman Posts: 128
    ilovebigwig wrote:
    P&P on top form this weeknd, cannot wait to take my "Chris Froome - the basic details" exams as I am now more than au fait with his upbringing and background thanks to being provided with the same four facts 8458 times.
    By the way, did you know he was born in Nairobi? That's in Kenya, in Africa, by the way, so that you don't get confused with that other Nairobi, or the other Kenya. It's not been mentioned very often, so you might have missed that one. :wink:

    I think dennisn thinks we're in no position to criticise P&P because we haven't sat down with them and chatted over a drink - that's his usual complaint. Maybe if we shared a few beers (probably kept in a suitcase of Courage) we'd see things completely differently. In fact, being constantly half-cut might explain their laughably incoherent commentary.
    N00b commuter with delusions of competence

    FCN 11 - If you scalp me, do I not bleed?
  • KnightOfTheLongTights
    KnightOfTheLongTights Posts: 1,415
    worst thing about PL is his grindlingly awful sense of humour
    Eurosport commentary better but still not great.
    French Eurosport head and shoulders above both - just a lot more grown-up.
  • B3rnieMac
    B3rnieMac Posts: 384
    P&P commentate in a way visually impaired people would appreciate. They literally describe what is happening on screen, with a few superlatives thrown in. They offer little to no racing insight. If you like that sort of thing then, fair enough. I was just completely bemused yesterday as PHIL was creaming himself at the thought of "A MOUNTAIN BIKER CHASING A FRENCHMAN" I mean, what??
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Pross wrote:
    Dennis, of course there are Directors and producers but they don't do what you seem to think. They will tell the commentators when they are going to ad breaks, switching to a recorded or live interview etc. etc. They don't whisper in their ear about what to say. They may well be helping monitor race radio and provide information to the commentators on the make up of a break or who has gone down in a crash. They will also prompt the commentators to mention the daily facts about a chateau that the Tour will have provided to them (in the case of ES either the commentators or a researcher have often found out a bit more than the standard brochure stuff - Carlton Kirby for all his faults is very good at that). However, the actual commenting ad hoc on what is happening on their screens is unscripted out of necessity and the producers won't be telling them what to say as they probably know nothing about cycling. Live commentary is an art form and very difficult. For all the gentle p**s taking of P&P I know I couldn't do it but they have been doing it so long that it has turned very cliche ridden much the same as many other long term commentators such as Murray Walker, John Motson etc.

    I think that if you listen a bit more closely you'll hear both Paul and Phil say things like
    "we've just been told" "race radio has informed us" "we've just been notified' "our monitors tell us". All sorts of comments like that. Hmmmmmmmmm. I know lots of people want to believe that these two are speaking to them directly and personally and that they are all knowing about what's going on and in a way they are all knowing but it's only beause others keep them informed.
  • Rundfahrt
    Rundfahrt Posts: 551
    I am curious if any of you who are arguing have done any work in television, especially commentating.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Pross wrote:
    Dennis, of course there are Directors and producers but they don't do what you seem to think. .... They may well be helping monitor race radio and provide information to the commentators on the make up of a break or who has gone down in a crash.
    dennisn wrote:
    I think that if you listen a bit more closely you'll hear both Paul and Phil say things like
    "we've just been told" "race radio has informed us" "we've just been notified' "our monitors tell us". All sorts of comments like that.

    Maybe some of us should read more closely ;)
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    I am curious if any of you who are arguing have done any work in television, especially commentating.

    So by that rationale everyone posting in this Pro Race forum must have experience of professional racing, yourself included?
  • KnightOfTheLongTights
    KnightOfTheLongTights Posts: 1,415
    B3rnieMac wrote:
    P&P commentate in a way visually impaired people would appreciate.

    'intellectually impaired', shurely?
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    Pross wrote:
    Rundfahrt wrote:
    I am curious if any of you who are arguing have done any work in television, especially commentating.

    So by that rationale everyone posting in this Pro Race forum must have experience of professional racing, yourself included?
    Not me. I've merely used vast quantities of performance-enhancing drugs, mostly coffee.
    Un uomo solo al commando

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