Job advice - what to do

First.Aspect

It's honest advice honestly given. Perhaps I've touched a nerve with you. What do you wish you'd done?

I don't know DDD, nor do I know DDDs circumstances. However I do speak from personal experience of very nearly leaving things too late, to be passed over in favour of people with ages starting with a "2" rather than an "3". Fortunately I'm so goddam awesome I got away with it.

I suspect, reading between the lines, that if DDD has taken things as far as getting a job offer outside of the NHS then that's where his interest really lies. I would also guess that it's easier to get into the NHS than it is to get out of it. But only DDD knows whether this is the right opportunity.

cyclingprop

First Aspect wrote:

It's honest advice honestly given. Perhaps I've touched a nerve with you. What do you wish you'd done?

I don't know DDD, nor do I know DDDs circumstances. However I do speak from personal experience of very nearly leaving things too late, to be passed over in favour of people with ages starting with a "2" rather than an "3". Fortunately I'm so goddam awesome I got away with it.

I suspect, reading between the lines, that if DDD has taken things as far as getting a job offer outside of the NHS then that's where his interest really lies. I would also guess that it's easier to get into the NHS than it is to get out of it. But only DDD knows whether this is the right opportunity.

No particular nerve touched other than having an opinion rubbished. Never going to have kids so not massively relevant for me; my suggestion was based on SO many of DDD's posts being child related, and perhaps seeing a way to get some time with them before they grow up.

That said you have a point about career and I agree if the desire wasn't there he would be unlikely to follow something to offer stage. It is totally his decision; though on balance my money would be with what I know right now.

First.Aspect

Well it's somewhat surprising that any posts are non child related at this point.

davis

clarkey cat wrote:

won't somebody think of the children?

Jeremy! I've missed you!

Jay dubbleU

How much of the extra 10K is bonus related - bearing in mind that selling in any shape or form is tough right now ?

The NHS is shrinking on the admin side - what guarantee do you have that they'll renew your contract in 12 months ?

Working from home on a semi-permanent basis needs discipline - I did it for 12 months and found I was actually putting in more hours than when I was office based.

rjsterry

B for me.

As someone else mentioned, what Mrs DDD's situation is/will be has quite an effect on which option you can afford both in the short and long term. Do you want to buy your own place? A £10K pay drop would have to be justified by something spectacular in my book, even if I could afford it. Granted, they may give you a rise if you prove yourself worthy, but not many places can give out that kind of pay rise at the moment. You'd have to be VERY good to command that kind of rise, and you seem to have doubts over whether you could be that good.

I don't know if ddd will be at home or at nursery (could you afford it?), but if he is, then you'll struggle to get much work done.

The flip side of Job B only being a 12 month contract is that if you decide you've made the wrong choice, it's not long to wait before you can jump ship.

EKE_38BPM

Job B. Go for the money. If after a year it doesn't work out, you'll have to look for a job again, but you'll be £10k better off.
If it does work out, you'll be on a higher salary for the next contract.
If it doesn't work out, future employers can be told that it was a 12 month contract at that salary and the expectations of what they will have to pay you will be at that level for future jobs.

Win-win, I think.

As its the same or similar to the job you already do, you know you can do it too.

CrackFox

DonDaddyD wrote:

The guy said "we're blue skying here" in the interview. I felt I was finally with my people!

You should be with your people. Up in the big blue sky. In a big space ark, and on your way to colonise another planet a long, long way away.

davis

Job B. You can put up with 12 months of anything, and this doesn't even sound like you'd be suffering. The money is (probably, although I don't know your salary) too big a difference to turn down. It's your duty to provide for your family(*); do so. Stick at it for a year, then re-evaluate the money vs. job satisfaction thing.

Good luck.

*: This sounds sexist. It probably is, a bit. I understand that you're the only one working, which means it's your duty to provide.

Edit: s/job/duty/ in some instances...

DonDaddyD

I have just had the biggest row with Ms DDD about this. She wants Job B, she is right the extra £574 could be poured into the house fund. I agreed to look for a new job mostly because working so far away meant that I wasn't spending much time with my son.

To me, well, the Job B is a bubble. The work ensures that the NHS acheives a particular 'status' that meets new operating criteria insisted upon by the Government. Once all Trusts have achieved this the bubble bursts and they all need to do it by 2013/14 or they fold, cease to exist and/or have their services bought up by other Trusts that have achieveed said status.

Job B is a secondment and I would need to leave my current contract to do it. If the person I am covering returns at any time, then with 1 months notice I am out of a job. Knowing the job she is going into and knowing the person I would be surprised to see her return.

There is no guarantee that my contract will be renewed, I would have my foot in the door. But these things are judged upon my performance, how well I fit in and the other person.

Career prospects would mean I head deeper into NHS type jobs. No bad thing.

Job A: The extra £10K is being made up in bonus. It's a new company existed since 2009. The first 6 months is sales, 6 months after than and we'll be looking at new business.

Career prospects, I would grow as the company expands, something I've always wanted. I would add something different to my CV. I have literally been doing Job B since I left Uni and have developed from a pure administrator to a fully fledged - give presentations at the British Medical Association Building (an achievement for me) - manager/Mr Fix it/Strategy tell people how its done type.

rick_chasey

Do what you want to do, not the wife.

You're the one who's going to spending most of his working day doing it.

She should understand that.

Sounds like Job A is the way to go to me - though I hope you're aware of the extra pressure a big sales target hovering over your head brings.

UndercoverElephant

Rick's not married, is he?

That said, I would be tempted to go with A.

rick_chasey

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Rick's not married, is he?

That said, I would be tempted to go with A.

Ha, no :P.

Live with my gf mind.

If she decided she couldn't stand her job and wanted to change to one that paid less I'd be supportive - even if it meant leaving my beloved Fulham.

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

I have just had the biggest row with Ms DDD about this. She wants Job B, she is right the extra £574 could be poured into the house fund. I agreed to look for a new job mostly because working so far away meant that I wasn't spending much time with my son.

To me, well, the Job B is a bubble. The work ensures that the NHS acheives a particular 'status' that meets new operating criteria insisted upon by the Government. Once all Trusts have achieved this the bubble bursts and they all need to do it by 2013/14 or they fold, cease to exist and/or have their services bought up by other Trusts that have achieveed said status.

Job B is a secondment and I would need to leave my current contract to do it. If the person I am covering returns at any time, then with 1 months notice I am out of a job. Knowing the job she is going into and knowing the person I would be surprised to see her return.

There is no guarantee that my contract will be renewed, I would have my foot in the door. But these things are judged upon my performance, how well I fit in and the other person.

Career prospects would mean I head deeper into NHS type jobs. No bad thing.

Job A: The extra £10K is being made up in bonus. It's a new company existed since 2009. The first 6 months is sales, 6 months after than and we'll be looking at new business.

Career prospects, I would grow as the company expands, something I've always wanted. I would add something different to my CV. I have literally been doing Job B since I left Uni and have developed from a pure administrator to a fully fledged - give presentations at the British Medical Association Building (an achievement for me) - manager/Mr Fix it/Strategy tell people how its done type.

So Job B is basically a single project: once it's done, it's done. My dad has been working in a similar way for the last 6 or 7 years, and the key to making it last more than one project seems to be demonstrating that you are worth hanging on to and can turn your hand to a number of different tasks - it sounds like you have plenty of transferable skills.

Back to Job A: so when and under what circumstances would the bonus be paid? Are they just calling it a bonus to allow it to fit within their current pay scale or are there conditions attached? If at the end of the year, that's a while to wait, and the best part of £600 a month is a big saving to find, but at least you would still get your contribution towards a deposit. Is Job A or something like it still likely to be around in 12 months?

First.Aspect

DDD there is no doubt that a job A is what you ultimately want. Question is, if you pass this one over, how likely is another one to come up? Also, what are re long term prospects of getting you to the right side of the salary bell curve? I wonder if you need to go back to A and negotiate further. It's private sector so they have flexibility. You could be fatalistic and take the approach that you have nothing to lose because you can't afford to take the current offer anyway. They will know your circumstances and it's not an unreasonable position to take.

£600 is a lot before or after tax. But how many months of nada would balance that out, an how likely is this to happen.

It's a tough call. I've done both the pay cut and 12 month contract thing at the same time but I don't have kids and there wasn't a recession on and the employer was pretty direct with me that the intention was for the position to be permanent.

My hunch is that Mrs DDD does not face such a dilemma in her professional life.

singleton

All I'll say is that £500 a month is a useful pension contribution....

<dons flame suit>

rjsterry

Singleton wrote:

All I'll say is that £500 a month is a useful pension contribution....

<dons flame suit>

Or any other form of long term investment for that matter. Also, if you (DDD) aren't doing it already, you should make sure you have decent life/accident and illness cover now that you have dependent(s).

DonDaddyD

Where is lost_in_thought she normally knows what to do.

Thing is - and this might be the NHS in me - I've not seen a job description for the private sector job. I want it because I can see it growing, it adds something different (but related) to my CV - I have literally done the same job for the past 6 years albeit from admin to manager. Its hard moving sideways at my level with one specific skill set and I certainly am not being looked at for business development in the NHS because I don't have the experience this job offers.

There are risks however, what if I'm crap and they get rid? What if the company (3 years old) is crap and folds? What if they don't give me my bonus & commission or the promised pay rise? What if after 6 months all I'm doing is cold calling and not looking at new business ventures, negotiating b2b contracts etc? Personally think its one hell of a basic to pay a cold calling sales man....

Job A would be the gamble of my career. I want it because I'm just young enough to take a punt and I've spent 6 years looking at jobs that require these skills but have been overlooked by them. At the same time my family need stability.

The reality is Job B offers short term stability as there are no guarantees with a secondment: the person could return.
early, the person could return after 12 months, the person could have left because they'll be downgrading the job - a possibility.

Job A - promises long term reward.
Job B - offers short term monetary reward.


Or both jobs could be genuine and Job A leads into business development and Job B offers an avenue into Comms/marketing.

I'm sorry for my ramblings, I couldn't sleep.

rjsterry

Sounds like Job A are being a bit sketchy with exactly what they are offering. If they can give you a detailed job description and conditions for bonus to be paid then that looks more promising. If they can't, this suggests that they are a bunch of chancers.

You do still seem to have significant doubts that you can achieve the performance to justify a bonus. Is this just a confidence thing or a gap in your skills?

The other thought is that maybe neither Job A or Job B are right for you, and what you actually need to do is go and find Job C.

daviesee

I am not going to try and tell you what to do.
This is one of these decisions you have to make for yourself based on your circumstances and desires.
I will leave you with these thoughts to ponder.

Life is full of ifs and buts. They just change and get smoother once in a while.
Most people regret the things that they haven't done rather than things that they have.
Make any decisions based on hard facts, not presumptions or hunches.

Good luck.

Edit:- +1 What rjsterry said.

First.Aspect

Could you afford this a year from now when Mrs DDD gets back to work? What are the odds of keeping that iron in the fire? (unlikely)

I would urge you to suspend your disbelief about being capable of doing the job. The new employer thinks you can do the job, you must also do so on some level. You'll probably be able to do the job, but its new, its in the private sector, it will be harder.

But you want to do it and there is no rule that says you are a father, thus you cannot take risks. Besides, you are chosing between two risks.

u33db

DonDaddyD wrote:

The guy said "we're blue skying here" in the interview.

Definately take the other job then.

Anyone that uses buzzwords like should be avoided...sounds like the sort of idiot you'd see on the apprentice tbh.

Take the other job and save your soul.

daviesee

u33db wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

The guy said "we're blue skying here" in the interview.

definitely take the other job then.

Anyone that uses buzzwords like should be avoided...sounds like the sort of idiot you'd see on the apprentice tbh.

Take the other job and save your soul.

I concur but DDD is in his element with these people....

DonDaddyD wrote:

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

..... The guy said "we're blue skying here" in the interview. I felt I was finally with my people!

...............

I would have been walking out at that point. People who talk bullshit are usually bullshitters :x

But that's my job "bullshit, bullshit, bullshit".

That's business/marketing - frankly it's all bullshit and the skill is getting people to believe and/or buy into it through the use of carefully selected language.

cyclingprop

Frankly, I'm not sure why you haven't used the Power Awesome (tm) to decide?

il_principe

So you've never worked in sales and are looking at going into a sales/new bus role?

I'd be wary if I were you. Sales does not suit everyone, and if you don't sell you'll get no commission and won't last long in the role. I'd think long and hard about making that switch. Most people your age in new bus roles are trying to move out into non-new bus (account management, client management etc), because sales doesn't suit many and can be a hard old grind with little reward (save commission).

I left new business behind (for a Proj Man/Client Man role) in Sept and God am I thankful for that.

DonDaddyD

Interesting and left me wondering whether I'll be using my PRINCE 2 for this role....

All that said I've sent them the first salvo of negotiation and requirements.

AND I'm left thinking about Ruud Gullit's negotiation technique with Chelsea years past. He asked for £5mil. They sacked him. In an interview he said that when you negotiate you start high and meet in the middle. His pay masters didn't seem to understand this logic. Damn.

I find out about the status of Job B as well.

cyclingprop

You won't use any project management in sales.

dhope

Sounds like Job A is where you want to be. Also doesn't sound like Job A is the best instance of a job in Industry A.
Is option C that you take Job B and keep on looking for a Job A with a better package? If the starting salary is actually pretty good for that type of role and you want to end up in that type of role then go for it, otherwise you'll just be asking the same question in 12 months time.

DonDaddyD

I HAVE DECIDED

Job B. My son needs a house with a garden and £10K or £600 a month is too much to sensibly walk away from as I strive to give him that. I also benefit from having a structured 9-5 and will be able to spend more time with him. So I do a job I don't like to the best of my ability because the end result makes him smile. People have sold themselves for far less to achieve the same thing.

Job A. Was right job at the wrong time in my life. It was complete fluke, I turned up to the interview and was told that (i) the job I applied wouldn't be enough for me. (ii) another job I could do wasn't right for me. (iii) they would create a job for me because they felt I was the right person.

I wonder what my life will be like go forward having turned that bad boy down. I wonder whether in the years to come I look back and tell my son never to take the decision I did.

Oh well the money is good. There was no commuting to be had with Job A. With this one, I turn left coming out of my house and BAM Wimbledon Hill (which isn't pleasent to walk up let alone ride) and onwards to Ealing.

Still might change my mind, I have to the end of today to do so....

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

I HAVE DECIDED

Job B. My son needs a house with a garden and £10K or £600 a month is too much to sensibly walk away from as I strive to give him that. I also benefit from having a structured 9-5 and will be able to spend more time with him. So I do a job I don't like to the best of my ability because the end result makes him smile. People have sold themselves for far less to achieve the same thing.

Job A. Was right job at the wrong time in my life. It was complete fluke, I turned up to the interview and was told that (i) the job I applied wouldn't be enough for me. (ii) another job I could do wasn't right for me. (iii) they would create a job for me because they felt I was the right person.

I wonder what my life will be like go forward having turned that bad boy down. I wonder whether in the years to come I look back and tell my son never to take the decision I did.

Oh well the money is good. There was no commuting to be had with Job A. With this one, I turn left coming out of my house and BAM Wimbledon Hill (which isn't pleasent to walk up let alone ride) and onwards to Ealing.

Still might change my mind, I have to the end of today to do so....

'Once in a lifetime' opportunities are few and far between - it's more a question of making things happen rather than relying on chance. If in a year's time you still want something more like Job A, I'm sure you'll be able to find it somewhere.